From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 19:27:54 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 19:27:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Final Oregon Rocketry 2010 Flight Schedule Message-ID: <11D202F2739448D6AE3522028D8E1FBF@LaptopKrausert> Final Oregon Rocketry 2010 Flight Schedule The following is the final flight schedule for the 2010 season. Most holidays are avoided. No new moons, effecting our vending. Never heard any ideas for a date for the 2x2 event. Sorry, can't do it all myself. So I guess the hope of a 2x2 weekend has past. Since I've got zero issues from the semi final, I'm going to call this final. May 21st on the sage next season, I've got projects for that event. May - Spring Thunder (20,500 AGL w/ call in 35,500 AGL) May 21st - 23rd Friday - May 21st, TRA Research Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Saturday - May 22nd Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 10:00pm Sunday - May 23rd Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 3:00pm GSE Equipment Required; Trailer Hauling Needed Vending: Bob with Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory June - Summer Skies (20,500 AGL w/ call in 35,500 AGL) June 25th - 27th Friday - June 25th, TRA Research Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Saturday - June 26th Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 10:00pm Sunday - June 27th Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 3:00pm GSE Equipment Required; Trailer Hauling Needed Vending: Bob with Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory July - Desert Heat July 16th - 18th Friday - July 16th, TRA Research Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Saturday - July 17th Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 10:00pm Sunday - July 18th Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 3:00pm GSE Equipment Required; Trailer Hauling Needed Vending: Bob with Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory August - Desert EXtreme (20,500 AGL w/ call in 35,500 AGL, research motors to 75% AGL limit) August 13th - 15th Friday - August 13th TRA Research Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Saturday - August 14th TRA Research Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Sunday - August 15th TRA Research Only 8:00am - 3:00pm Bring Your Ground Support Equipment; No Trailer for this event No vending September - Fillible's Folly (5,400 AGL September 10th - 12th Friday - September 10th, Members Only Event Commercial Motors Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Saturday - September 11th Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 10:00pm Sunday - September 12th Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 3:00pm GSE Equipment Required; Trailer Hauling Needed Vending: Bob with Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory October - Rocketober (20,500 AGL w/ call in 35,500 AGL) October 8th - 10th Friday - October 8th, TRA Research Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Saturday - October 9th Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 10:00pm Sunday - October 10th Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 3:00pm GSE Equipment Required; Trailer Hauling Needed Vending: Bob with Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory Extra: TBD if this can be arranged and popular; June Fly-Off (35,500 AGL all weekend, a stretch but we'll try - all FAA can say is no) (Each team will have specially colored flight cards, the one team with the most total Newtons wins the fly-off) TBD Friday - TBD, TRA Research Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Saturday - TBD, TRA Research Only 8:00am - 10:00pm Sunday - TBD, Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 10:00pm Monday - TBD, Commercial Motors, all welcome 8:00am - 3:00pm GSE Equipment Required; Trailer Hauling Needed (This is a special new launch for Team BORG, Team Numb, Team Hardtail and other teams to join forces on Friday and throughout the weekend to put on a show. Others are welcome to fly. TRA members can fly Friday and Saturday, everyone else, commercial is Sunday and Monday. Vending: TBD From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 1 23:47:05 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 23:47:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] launch towers In-Reply-To: <570418.20210.qm@web112910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <5916745.1256908380192.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <570418.20210.qm@web112910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <636c361040cc75f17ff6ec1fc406d367.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> One thing I always mention to those considering tower launchers is the use of a trapezoidal four-rail design. Space the rails at 100-100-100-60 degree angles around the circle. This allows for equal ease of use with either three or four fins and provides great confinement. One small problem with three-rail launchers is the precision of positioning of the rails. Only a proportionately small error is sufficient to allow the rocket to slip far enough sideways between two of the rails to experience significant binding up. Besides the potential for dangerous outcomes, this is not conducive to minimizing drag from the rails. Three-rail towers work fine if you pay attention to this--keep the rails very straight and the 'rattle' clearance small. The usual solution for pop-off shoes is to simply make them lightly spring loaded so they spring away from the rocket as soon as they clear the top of the rail. Finding them afterward is an exercise left to the reader... +McG+ > Yes, the sole purpose is to minimize drag.? Both with the removal of any > launch hardware on the rocket and by the removal of any unnecessary > friction on the rocket at the launch tower.? To be honest I am not going > for any altitude records (yet) and this is more of a mental exercise at > this point.? I'll also have to admit that I did not pencil out the exact > range of speed that things would need to happen at.? I did rationalize > though that I am only talking about perhaps 2 inches, and the top of the > tower is the only part that needs to move (pivot), I had envisioned a > pre-tensioned spring on each guide, which in turn is held in place by an > electromagnetic switch. I just figured I could tension a spring enough to > move the rail the two inches in less time than the rocket would > need?to?move the 2, 3 or?4 feet left on the rails. I have found > electromagnets that can hold 50lbs with the power of just one D cell > battery and I have seen an amazing > demonstration of a table saw with a spring loaded blade that has the > ability to sense if a hand - or other body part I reckon -?has come into > contact with the blade (with a change in conductivity like the touch-on > lamps do) and then pull the blade down and out of the way. It literally > moves so fast, that the saw blade does not have the time to cut the > individual so I know some?pretty fast speeds can be obtained. > I like the Idea of a sabo and of adjusting the rail height, I will > definitely look into those ideas further, but I didn't know the speed of > the electronics.? I will continue to refine the math and get a better idea > of just what kind of speed I am talking about.? Thanks to all for the > input so far. > > Robert Braibish > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "melamy at earthlink.net" > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Fri, October 30, 2009 6:13:00 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] launch towers > > I think I would make the tower height adjustable so the stability is > reached just as the tower ends would be easier. You can sense the rocket > speed, but can you make an actuator for the rails that will operate in the > very low millisecond range? The problem that I see is by the time you can > get the guides out of the way, the rocket will already be gone. I don't > have rocksim available at the moment, but a high thrust rocket will more > than likely only be in launch guides for less than 200ms. You would > actually have to start the "removal" of the guides even before the rocket > was up to speed in order to get them out of the way. > > Of note, you would only need to make the upper guides "fall away" rather > than needing the entire guide length. The rocket will already be up the > tower anyway. The smaller the mechanical area, the lower the inertia will > be for the mechanism and the faster it can be moved. > > For a sensor array, keep in mind that mechanical switches with have > response times, so the thread idea is probably not quick enough. Light > sensors would be the easist and I would think that you could actually look > for the motor burn as you light source and sense that. > > best regards, Steve Thatcher > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Robert Braibish >>Sent: Oct 30, 2009 12:30 AM >>To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>Subject: [RocketsNW] launch towers >> >>I am tossing some ideas around in my head about launch towers and I have >> a few questions to ask the electronic geeks among the group.? My ideas >> center around a launch tower that has the guides on actuators so they can >> drop away from the rocket once the (pre-calculated) required stable >> velocity is achieved (my understanding is somewhere between 40 fps & 50 >> fps for most rockets).? This means I need electronics that can accurately >> and quickly determine the velocity of a rocket and then trigger the guide >> release (I am thinking spring loaded electromagnetic release).? Ideas >> that had come to me are: a linear array of infrared sensors (like the >> door chimes at your local 7-11) that sent signals to some processor which >> could determine the speed and then trigger the release. Or, some radar >> technology with a sensor that sent its signal to a controller.? I even >> toyed with the idea of "trip lines" of thread that opened (or closed as >> the case may be) switches that >> also sent signals to a controller.? >>My questions are; >>What is best/most feasible?way to do this?? >>Would one of you be willing to "hold my hand" as I stumble through my >> first DIY electronics project? >>Finally, and perhaps most importantly, has anyone heard of or tried to do >> something similar or is it even worth it? >> >>Robert Braibish >> >> >>? ? ? >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockets mailing list >>Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>? > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From sb at berfield.com Mon Nov 2 09:47:08 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:47:08 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Another space pioneer passes away Message-ID: Father of China's space tech program dies at 98 By HENRY SANDERSON, Associated Press Writer Henry Sanderson, Associated Press Writer ? Sat Oct 31, 7:33 am ET BEIJING ? Qian Xuesen, a rocket scientist known as the father of China's space technology program, died Saturday in Beijing, the official Xinhua News Agency said. He was 98. Qian, also known as Tsien Hsue-shen,began his career in the U.S. and was regarded as one of the brightestminds in the new field of aeronautics before returning to China in 1955, driven out of the United States at the height of anticommunist fervor. Qian set up China's first missile and rocket research institute, which later helped start China's space program. He led the development of China's first nuclear-armed ballistic missiles and worked on its first satellite, launched in 1970. He retired in 1991, the year before China's manned space program was launched. But his research formed the basis for the Long March CZ-2F rocket that carried astronaut Yang Liwei into orbit in 2003. In August, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao visited Qian and praised him for dedicating his life to China's defense technologies, according to Xinhua. "I'm trying to live to be 100 years old," Qian told him. Born in 1911 in the eastern Chinese city of Hangzhou, Qian left for the United States after winning a scholarship to graduate school in 1936. He studied at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and later at the California Institute of Technology, where he helped start the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. During World War II, Qian helped to design ballistic missiles for the U.S. military. In 1945, as an Army colonel with a security clearance, he was sent to Europe on a mission to examine captured rocket technology from Nazi Germany. He studied the German V-2 rocket and interviewed its chief designer, Wernher von Braun, who would go on to play a key role in the American manned space program. After the war, Qian married the daughter of a military adviser to Chinese leader Gen. Chiang Kai-shek.In 1949, he applied to become a U.S. citizen, shortly before Chiang'sNationalist forces were defeated by Mao Zedong's communists. As anticommunist unease in the United States mounted, the FBI confronted Qian in 1950 with a U.S. Communist Party document from 1938 that listed him as a member. Qiandenied being a communist, but he was briefly arrested and lost hissecurity clearance. Washington began hearings to deport him, though hewas never charged with a crime. After five years of virtual house arrest and secret negotiations between Washington and Beijing, Qian left for his homeland in 1955. From t.j.doll at att.net Mon Nov 2 13:54:38 2009 From: t.j.doll at att.net (t.j.doll at att.net) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:54:38 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 Message-ID: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html Tim From appusher at q.com Mon Nov 2 18:09:23 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 02:09:23 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] NASA J-2X Engine Message-ID: Ares I Upper Stage and Ares V Earth Departure Stage Interesting article about the upper stage engines. http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/187393main_j2x_fs_nov08.pdf EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 2 18:41:37 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:41:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF 0404010BD206D29B@att.net> References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> Message-ID: <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! +McG+ > Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > > http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From appusher at q.com Mon Nov 2 19:33:31 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 03:33:31 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] J-2X Engine used in the Aries upper stage Message-ID: Ares I Upper Stage and Ares V Earth Departure Stage http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/187393main_j2x_fs_nov08.pdf EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me From appusher at q.com Mon Nov 2 20:11:10 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 04:11:10 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] List bounce box hung up again.?? Message-ID: I posted a few messages tonight about an hour ago. Nothing has shown up yet. Just curious what's up. Bill EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me From greg at blastzone.com Mon Nov 2 20:12:38 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:12:38 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] List bounce box hung up again.?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015201ca5c3b$e1c30240$a54906c0$@com> I see your messages at 6:10 and 7:30. Maybe they're stuck in your spam filter, or queued up on your server somewhere? From: Bill Munds [mailto:appusher at q.com] Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 8:11 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com; Greg Deputy Subject: List bounce box hung up again.?? I posted a few messages tonight about an hour ago. Nothing has shown up yet. Just curious what's up. Bill i'mEMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me From fred.azinger at intel.com Tue Nov 3 09:27:28 2009 From: fred.azinger at intel.com (Azinger, Fred) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:27:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's Apache. That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make the same decision at the same time... Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until after staging. But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... Food for thought, FredA -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM To: Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! +McG+ > Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > > http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From fred.azinger at intel.com Tue Nov 3 09:32:27 2009 From: fred.azinger at intel.com (Azinger, Fred) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:32:27 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor for the booster. The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a Bates configuration's tail off. Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's Apache. That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make the same decision at the same time... Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until after staging. But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... Food for thought, FredA -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM To: Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! +McG+ > Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > > http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From steve-c at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 3 11:04:29 2009 From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com (steve-c at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:04:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 Message-ID: <8335730.1257275069625.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Fred - one thing that you aren't factoring is that the drag coefficient of the booster is greater than that of the sustainer for your Apache project (6-inch to 3-inch, correct?), so it seems reasonable to think that at separation, the inertia of the sustainer will provide the clearance necessary to avoid any collision, no? Quite the contrary on the Ares-1X test where the upper section looked awfully draggy. /Steve -----Original Message----- >From: "Azinger, Fred" >Sent: Nov 3, 2009 12:32 PM >To: "Azinger, Fred" , "kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com" , Rocket Lost >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor for the booster. >The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a Bates configuration's tail off. >Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's Apache. >That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make the same decision at the same time... > >Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > >I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until after staging. >But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > >Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >Food for thought, >FredA > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >To: Rocket Lost >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >"For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." > >That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) >of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >+McG+ > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From fred.azinger at intel.com Tue Nov 3 11:16:57 2009 From: fred.azinger at intel.com (Azinger, Fred) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 11:16:57 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <8335730.1257275069625.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8335730.1257275069625.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Depends on how cleanly they release....and (to the articles point) if the booster is really done thrusting. We are somewhat inhibiting drag separation. As a by product of a firm interstage coupler, we have created a vacuum holding the two stages together. This changes to a pressurized (CO2) chamber to push the stages apart on command. The vacuum is pretty strong -- enough that it is very hard to pull the sustainer back out of the booster once seated and may inhibit drag separation. Once inhibited, we reply on the computer at the bottom to fire the separation charge and it's backup 1 second later. At a similar time, the sustainers computer is trying to decide when to light the motor. Should the sustainer decide early and the booster late, the motor might try to light while coupled which is a sealed environment and likely to CATO due to overpressure. What would I like? A [wireless] link between the two stages with some agreement/coordination on what to fire when. Crisp motor turn-off's to make sure there is little thrust and we are really in a negative acceleration mode. Apple Pie with ice cream. -----Original Message----- From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com [mailto:steve-c at ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:04 AM To: Azinger, Fred; Azinger, Fred; kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 Fred - one thing that you aren't factoring is that the drag coefficient of the booster is greater than that of the sustainer for your Apache project (6-inch to 3-inch, correct?), so it seems reasonable to think that at separation, the inertia of the sustainer will provide the clearance necessary to avoid any collision, no? Quite the contrary on the Ares-1X test where the upper section looked awfully draggy. /Steve -----Original Message----- >From: "Azinger, Fred" >Sent: Nov 3, 2009 12:32 PM >To: "Azinger, Fred" , "kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com" , Rocket Lost >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor for the booster. >The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a Bates configuration's tail off. >Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's Apache. >That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make the same decision at the same time... > >Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > >I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until after staging. >But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > >Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >Food for thought, >FredA > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >To: Rocket Lost >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >"For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." > >That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) >of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >+McG+ > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From jhadv at pacifier.com Tue Nov 3 11:52:28 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:52:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091103115124.033d0df8@mail.iinet.com> >Quite the contrary on the Ares-1X test where the upper section looked >awfully draggy. No atmosphere = no drag. The booster burns for minutes and the altitude at separation is way up there as is the velocity. From whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 13:55:25 2009 From: whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com (Dietrich Podmajersky) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:55:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: References: <8335730.1257275069625.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Fred, With the availible open source hardware platforms the avionics portion should be more than doable (including wireless link). I'd probabaly want to include sensors that detect positive seperation among other things. Might take a bit to get all of the scenarios accounted for in the software. One of the questions would be how much "mass" would you be willing to spend. We aren't talking huge amounts but you would probabaly need to add the weight equivilent of 2-3 parrot or MAWD altimeters. In fact one of the projects I've been thinking of doing is adding temp and flex sensors to a rocket and program a microcontroller for high resolution data logging of a said sensors....in an attempt to quantify some of the Mach transition effects everybody talks about. -Dietrich Podmajersky On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Azinger, Fred wrote: > Depends on how cleanly they release....and (to the articles point) if the > booster is really done thrusting. > > We are somewhat inhibiting drag separation. > > As a by product of a firm interstage coupler, we have created a vacuum > holding the two stages together. > This changes to a pressurized (CO2) chamber to push the stages apart on > command. > The vacuum is pretty strong -- enough that it is very hard to pull the > sustainer back out of the booster once seated and may inhibit drag > separation. > Once inhibited, we reply on the computer at the bottom to fire the > separation charge and it's backup 1 second later. > At a similar time, the sustainers computer is trying to decide when to > light the motor. > Should the sustainer decide early and the booster late, the motor might try > to light while coupled which is a sealed environment and likely to CATO due > to overpressure. > > What would I like? > A [wireless] link between the two stages with some agreement/coordination > on what to fire when. > Crisp motor turn-off's to make sure there is little thrust and we are > really in a negative acceleration mode. > Apple Pie with ice cream. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com [mailto:steve-c at ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:04 AM > To: Azinger, Fred; Azinger, Fred; kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket > Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Fred - one thing that you aren't factoring is that the drag coefficient of > the booster is greater than that of the sustainer for your Apache project > (6-inch to 3-inch, correct?), so it seems reasonable to think that at > separation, the inertia of the sustainer will provide the clearance > necessary to avoid any collision, no? Quite the contrary on the Ares-1X > test where the upper section looked awfully draggy. /Steve > > -----Original Message----- > >From: "Azinger, Fred" > >Sent: Nov 3, 2009 12:32 PM > >To: "Azinger, Fred" , " > kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com" , Rocket Lost > > >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > >BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor > for the booster. > >The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a > Bates configuration's tail off. > >Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the [presumed] > primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > >Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > >To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > >Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > Apache. > >That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out > in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make the > same decision at the same time... > > > >Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > > >I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until > after staging. > >But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > >Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > > >Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > >Food for thought, > >FredA > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > >Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > >To: Rocket Lost > >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > >"For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > >heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." > > > >That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) > >of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > >+McG+ > > > > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > >> > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > >> > >> Tim > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockets mailing list > >Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockets mailing list > >Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockets mailing list > >Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From fred.azinger at intel.com Tue Nov 3 14:06:13 2009 From: fred.azinger at intel.com (Azinger, Fred) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:06:13 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: References: <8335730.1257275069625.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Mass is a near don't care.......... Think P-N or bigger. Although I do have a test bed 2-stage that is L-J (75mm -> 38mm) Take a pound (or two with battery) -- fit in 54mm if you can, 75mm for sure. Agree that some detection telemetry is helpful. Greg added that to the BeeLine GPS's in response to Adrian Carbine's desire to detect separation. ________________________________ From: Dietrich Podmajersky [mailto:whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 1:55 PM To: Azinger, Fred Cc: steve-c at ix.netcom.com; kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 Fred, With the availible open source hardware platforms the avionics portion should be more than doable (including wireless link). I'd probabaly want to include sensors that detect positive seperation among other things. Might take a bit to get all of the scenarios accounted for in the software. One of the questions would be how much "mass" would you be willing to spend. We aren't talking huge amounts but you would probabaly need to add the weight equivilent of 2-3 parrot or MAWD altimeters. In fact one of the projects I've been thinking of doing is adding temp and flex sensors to a rocket and program a microcontroller for high resolution data logging of a said sensors....in an attempt to quantify some of the Mach transition effects everybody talks about. -Dietrich Podmajersky On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Azinger, Fred > wrote: Depends on how cleanly they release....and (to the articles point) if the booster is really done thrusting. We are somewhat inhibiting drag separation. As a by product of a firm interstage coupler, we have created a vacuum holding the two stages together. This changes to a pressurized (CO2) chamber to push the stages apart on command. The vacuum is pretty strong -- enough that it is very hard to pull the sustainer back out of the booster once seated and may inhibit drag separation. Once inhibited, we reply on the computer at the bottom to fire the separation charge and it's backup 1 second later. At a similar time, the sustainers computer is trying to decide when to light the motor. Should the sustainer decide early and the booster late, the motor might try to light while coupled which is a sealed environment and likely to CATO due to overpressure. What would I like? A [wireless] link between the two stages with some agreement/coordination on what to fire when. Crisp motor turn-off's to make sure there is little thrust and we are really in a negative acceleration mode. Apple Pie with ice cream. -----Original Message----- From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com [mailto:steve-c at ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:04 AM To: Azinger, Fred; Azinger, Fred; kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 Fred - one thing that you aren't factoring is that the drag coefficient of the booster is greater than that of the sustainer for your Apache project (6-inch to 3-inch, correct?), so it seems reasonable to think that at separation, the inertia of the sustainer will provide the clearance necessary to avoid any collision, no? Quite the contrary on the Ares-1X test where the upper section looked awfully draggy. /Steve -----Original Message----- >From: "Azinger, Fred" > >Sent: Nov 3, 2009 12:32 PM >To: "Azinger, Fred" >, "kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com" >, Rocket Lost > >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor for the booster. >The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a Bates configuration's tail off. >Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's Apache. >That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make the same decision at the same time... > >Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > >I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until after staging. >But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > >Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >Food for thought, >FredA > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >To: Rocket Lost >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > >"For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." > >That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) >of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >+McG+ > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 15:10:15 2009 From: whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com (Dietrich Podmajersky) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:10:15 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: References: <8335730.1257275069625.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hmm, with that envelope, this could probablay be pulled together with mostly off the shelf open source hardware.... a couple of small formfactor arduinos with Xbee modules for the wireless communications (would need to check the speed of data transfer), and SD card module for data logging. A sensor PCB for the accelerometers and the pressure sensors would probably need to be made.. but getting a handful of boards fabricated isn't hard these days. I'd have to do some work to figure out if the atmega microcontrollers would be fast enough. The code would be a bit of work since that is where the magic would be. Not sure how much time I'll have over the winter since I am trying to build a rocket for an L3 cert flight next year.. but it sounds like an interesting project and I could probabaly be talked into working on it as a group project of some sort. On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Azinger, Fred wrote: > Mass is a near don't care.......... > Think P-N or bigger. > Although I do have a test bed 2-stage that is L-J (75mm -> 38mm) > > Take a pound (or two with battery) -- fit in 54mm if you can, 75mm for > sure. > > Agree that some detection telemetry is helpful. > Greg added that to the BeeLine GPS's in response to Adrian Carbine's desire > to detect separation. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dietrich Podmajersky [mailto:whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 1:55 PM > *To:* Azinger, Fred > *Cc:* steve-c at ix.netcom.com; kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > > *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Fred, With the availible open source hardware platforms the avionics > portion should be more than doable (including wireless link). I'd probabaly > want to include sensors that detect positive seperation among other things. > Might take a bit to get all of the scenarios accounted for in the software. > One of the questions would be how much "mass" would you be willing to > spend. We aren't talking huge amounts but you would probabaly need to add > the weight equivilent of 2-3 parrot or MAWD altimeters. > > In fact one of the projects I've been thinking of doing is adding temp and > flex sensors to a rocket and program a microcontroller for high resolution > data logging of a said sensors....in an attempt to quantify some of the Mach > transition effects everybody talks about. > > -Dietrich Podmajersky > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Azinger, Fred wrote: > >> Depends on how cleanly they release....and (to the articles point) if the >> booster is really done thrusting. >> >> We are somewhat inhibiting drag separation. >> >> As a by product of a firm interstage coupler, we have created a vacuum >> holding the two stages together. >> This changes to a pressurized (CO2) chamber to push the stages apart on >> command. >> The vacuum is pretty strong -- enough that it is very hard to pull the >> sustainer back out of the booster once seated and may inhibit drag >> separation. >> Once inhibited, we reply on the computer at the bottom to fire the >> separation charge and it's backup 1 second later. >> At a similar time, the sustainers computer is trying to decide when to >> light the motor. >> Should the sustainer decide early and the booster late, the motor might >> try to light while coupled which is a sealed environment and likely to CATO >> due to overpressure. >> >> What would I like? >> A [wireless] link between the two stages with some agreement/coordination >> on what to fire when. >> Crisp motor turn-off's to make sure there is little thrust and we are >> really in a negative acceleration mode. >> Apple Pie with ice cream. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com [mailto:steve-c at ix.netcom.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:04 AM >> To: Azinger, Fred; Azinger, Fred; kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket >> Lost >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> Fred - one thing that you aren't factoring is that the drag coefficient of >> the booster is greater than that of the sustainer for your Apache project >> (6-inch to 3-inch, correct?), so it seems reasonable to think that at >> separation, the inertia of the sustainer will provide the clearance >> necessary to avoid any collision, no? Quite the contrary on the Ares-1X >> test where the upper section looked awfully draggy. /Steve >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: "Azinger, Fred" >> >Sent: Nov 3, 2009 12:32 PM >> >To: "Azinger, Fred" , " >> kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com" , Rocket Lost >> >> >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> >BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor >> for the booster. >> >The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a >> Bates configuration's tail off. >> >Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor >> calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the [presumed] >> primary contributor to decision timing differences. >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: >> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >> >Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >> >To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >> >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> >Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's >> Apache. >> >That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out >> in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make the >> same decision at the same time... >> > >> >Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could >> result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. >> > >> >I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until >> after staging. >> >But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, >> decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >> >Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some >> distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... >> > >> >Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >> >Food for thought, >> >FredA >> > >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: >> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> >Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >> >To: Rocket Lost >> >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> >"For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >> >heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." >> > >> >That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all >> areas) >> >of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >> >+McG+ >> > >> > >> >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> >> >> Tim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Rockets mailing list >> >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Rockets mailing list >> >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Rockets mailing list >> >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 16:23:11 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:23:11 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] I have heard there is TRA club in Tillamook Message-ID: I have heard there is a TRA club in Tillamook Oregon and am interested to know where they launch and how to find out about them. From jpr602 at mac.com Tue Nov 3 19:24:32 2009 From: jpr602 at mac.com (John Roberts) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:24:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] I have heard there is TRA club in Tillamook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CAF242E-6BC0-4D88-81CC-06D4927031EB@mac.com> On Nov 3, 2009, at 4:23 PM, Christopher Guenther wrote: > I have heard there is a TRA club in Tillamook Oregon and am > interested to > know where they launch and how to find out about them. http://www.tripoli.org/prefecture/prefusor.shtml From mikeandkimwyvel at comcast.net Tue Nov 3 20:55:57 2009 From: mikeandkimwyvel at comcast.net (mikeandkimwyvel) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:55:57 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wac GSE cleaning/monthly meeting Message-ID: <002a01ca5d0b$192a5ab0$4b7f1010$@net> Hi everyone. The final GSE cleaning/November monthly meeting will be this Saturday from 10:00AM - 12:00AM rain or shine. There will be breakfast items so please let me know if you will make it so I get enough. We'll be meeting at Dan Work's home in Federal Way. If you have additional agenda items let me know and I will add them to the list. 37222 28th Ave S Federal Way, WA. 98003 Agenda items: October launch recap New BOD nominations Launch controller From mikeandkimwyvel at comcast.net Tue Nov 3 21:05:11 2009 From: mikeandkimwyvel at comcast.net (mikeandkimwyvel) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:05:11 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] NASA J-2X Engine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003901ca5d0c$6388a250$2a99e6f0$@net> I love that a rocket engine is used to drive the turbo pumps for a bigger rocket engine. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Bill Munds Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:09 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] NASA J-2X Engine Ares I Upper Stage and Ares V Earth Departure Stage Interesting article about the upper stage engines. http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/187393main_j2x_fs_nov08.pdf EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 21:45:31 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:45:31 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Certifications in 2009 Message-ID: <4612FB4D2B92414DA8291513B1B8DBB5@LaptopKrausert> Hello, If you received one or more TRA, NAR, or CAR certifications in the 2009 year, please let me know. I only ask for a few things. I'd like to know, and would like your permission to share. Can be L1, 2 and/or 3. If you got more than one, please repeat the info below for each. Your Name: with NAR, TRA or CAR: Level achieved: Rocket Name: Motor: At What Launch (Location & Name): Date: Anything you'd like to share: Truly appreciate the information. And also, please know that by sending the information, you're giving me the OK to post it. To me please, off list. Cheers, Robert From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 3 22:36:54 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 22:36:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: References: <8335730.1257275069625.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1901f7189a2f475b23ae50a885605e4b.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Years ago on the aRocket list there was discussion--serious discussion--among some of the members about using wireless communications on rockets. These were some of the same people who went on to become important figures in enterprises like SpaceX. Their point was that cabling and connections were a main source of trouble on rockets and that it might be easier to manage the problems associated with operating an internal WiFi type network among the various main avionics components on a given launch vehicle. A wireless link between the stages might solve a bunch of problems. +McG+ > Hmm, with that envelope, this could probablay be pulled together with > mostly > off the shelf open source hardware.... a couple of small formfactor > arduinos > with Xbee modules for the wireless communications (would need to check the > speed of data transfer), and SD card module for data logging. A sensor > PCB for the accelerometers and the pressure sensors would probably need to > be made.. but getting a handful of boards fabricated isn't hard these > days. I'd have to do some work to figure out if the atmega > microcontrollers > would be fast enough. The code would be a bit of work since that is where > the magic would be. > > Not sure how much time I'll have over the winter since I am trying to > build > a rocket for an L3 cert flight next year.. but it sounds like an > interesting > project and I could probabaly be talked into working on it as a group > project of some sort. > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Azinger, Fred > wrote: > >> Mass is a near don't care.......... >> Think P-N or bigger. >> Although I do have a test bed 2-stage that is L-J (75mm -> 38mm) >> >> Take a pound (or two with battery) -- fit in 54mm if you can, 75mm for >> sure. >> >> Agree that some detection telemetry is helpful. >> Greg added that to the BeeLine GPS's in response to Adrian Carbine's >> desire >> to detect separation. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Dietrich Podmajersky [mailto:whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 1:55 PM >> *To:* Azinger, Fred >> *Cc:* steve-c at ix.netcom.com; kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> Fred, With the availible open source hardware platforms the avionics >> portion should be more than doable (including wireless link). I'd >> probabaly >> want to include sensors that detect positive seperation among other >> things. >> Might take a bit to get all of the scenarios accounted for in the >> software. >> One of the questions would be how much "mass" would you be willing to >> spend. We aren't talking huge amounts but you would probabaly need to >> add >> the weight equivilent of 2-3 parrot or MAWD altimeters. >> >> In fact one of the projects I've been thinking of doing is adding temp >> and >> flex sensors to a rocket and program a microcontroller for high >> resolution >> data logging of a said sensors....in an attempt to quantify some of the >> Mach >> transition effects everybody talks about. >> >> -Dietrich Podmajersky >> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Azinger, Fred >> wrote: >> >>> Depends on how cleanly they release....and (to the articles point) if >>> the >>> booster is really done thrusting. >>> >>> We are somewhat inhibiting drag separation. >>> >>> As a by product of a firm interstage coupler, we have created a vacuum >>> holding the two stages together. >>> This changes to a pressurized (CO2) chamber to push the stages apart on >>> command. >>> The vacuum is pretty strong -- enough that it is very hard to pull the >>> sustainer back out of the booster once seated and may inhibit drag >>> separation. >>> Once inhibited, we reply on the computer at the bottom to fire the >>> separation charge and it's backup 1 second later. >>> At a similar time, the sustainers computer is trying to decide when to >>> light the motor. >>> Should the sustainer decide early and the booster late, the motor might >>> try to light while coupled which is a sealed environment and likely to >>> CATO >>> due to overpressure. >>> >>> What would I like? >>> A [wireless] link between the two stages with some >>> agreement/coordination >>> on what to fire when. >>> Crisp motor turn-off's to make sure there is little thrust and we are >>> really in a negative acceleration mode. >>> Apple Pie with ice cream. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com [mailto:steve-c at ix.netcom.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:04 AM >>> To: Azinger, Fred; Azinger, Fred; kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket >>> Lost >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >>> >>> Fred - one thing that you aren't factoring is that the drag coefficient >>> of >>> the booster is greater than that of the sustainer for your Apache >>> project >>> (6-inch to 3-inch, correct?), so it seems reasonable to think that at >>> separation, the inertia of the sustainer will provide the clearance >>> necessary to avoid any collision, no? Quite the contrary on the >>> Ares-1X >>> test where the upper section looked awfully draggy. /Steve >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >From: "Azinger, Fred" >>> >Sent: Nov 3, 2009 12:32 PM >>> >To: "Azinger, Fred" , " >>> kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com" , Rocket >>> Lost >>> >>> >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >>> > >>> >BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl >>> motor >>> for the booster. >>> >The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to >>> a >>> Bates configuration's tail off. >>> >Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor >>> calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the >>> [presumed] >>> primary contributor to decision timing differences. >>> > >>> > >>> >-----Original Message----- >>> >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: >>> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >>> >Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >>> >To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >>> >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >>> > >>> >Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's >>> Apache. >>> >That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster >>> burn-out >>> in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make >>> the >>> same decision at the same time... >>> > >>> >Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could >>> result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. >>> > >>> >I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming >>> until >>> after staging. >>> >But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, >>> decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >>> >Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some >>> distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... >>> > >>> >Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >>> >Food for thought, >>> >FredA >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >-----Original Message----- >>> >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: >>> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of >>> kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> >Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >>> >To: Rocket Lost >>> >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >>> > >>> >"For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >>> >heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy >>> SpaceXs." >>> > >>> >That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all >>> areas) >>> >of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >>> >+McG+ >>> > >>> > >>> >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >>> >> >>> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >>> >> >>> >> Tim >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Rockets mailing list >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >Rockets mailing list >>> >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >Rockets mailing list >>> >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >Rockets mailing list >>> >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 3 22:50:14 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 22:50:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] NASA J-2X Engine In-Reply-To: <003901ca5d0c$6388a250$2a99e6f0$@net> References: <003901ca5d0c$6388a250$2a99e6f0$@net> Message-ID: > I love that a rocket engine is used to drive the turbo pumps for a bigger > rocket engine. Technically it's a "gas generator" but ATF didn't buy that argument when we tried to use it in the lawsuit. LOL Water rockets and mass drivers are about the only kinds of rockets that aren't gas generators. Even an ion engine is a gas generator. And yeah, I love it too! But the gas generator for the J-2X is also liquid-fuel. What drives the pumps for it? Uh-oh. Chicken, egg...run, hide! +McG+ > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Munds > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:09 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] NASA J-2X Engine > > > > > > Ares I Upper Stage and Ares V Earth Departure Stage > > > > Interesting article about the upper stage engines. > > > http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/187393main_j2x_fs_nov08.pdf > > > > > > > > > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > Join me > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 3 23:27:18 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 23:27:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <4c867e7da3c6a30d84b5748145c001bb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not really. Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and fairly normal trajectory. When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging electronics. KISS ruled. Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what you want it to do. :) But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions for that, I dare ya! +McG+ > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor > for the booster. > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a > Bates configuration's tail off. > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the [presumed] > primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > Apache. > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out > in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make > the same decision at the same time... > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until > after staging. > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > Food for thought, > FredA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > To: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) > of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > +McG+ > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From fred at azinger.com Wed Nov 4 06:39:47 2009 From: fred at azinger.com (Fred Azinger) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 06:39:47 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <4c867e7da3c6a30d84b5748145c001bb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <4c867e7da3c6a30d84b5748145c001bb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <005301ca5d5c$a89bfd10$f9d3f730$@com> Ken -- nice read! One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become the issue. I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed interesting thinking. Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about that one. Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) FredA -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM To: Azinger, Fred Cc: Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not really. Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and fairly normal trajectory. When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging electronics. KISS ruled. Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what you want it to do. :) But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions for that, I dare ya! +McG+ > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor > for the booster. > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a > Bates configuration's tail off. > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the [presumed] > primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > Apache. > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out > in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make > the same decision at the same time... > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until > after staging. > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > Food for thought, > FredA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > To: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all areas) > of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > +McG+ > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Wed Nov 4 07:52:04 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 07:52:04 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <005301ca5d5c$a89bfd10$f9d3f730$@com> References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <4c867e7da3c6a30d84b5748145c001bb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <005301ca5d5c$a89bfd10$f9d3f730$@com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DBE4@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' Cc: 'Rocket Lost' Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 Ken -- nice read! One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become the issue. I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed interesting thinking. Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about that one. Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) FredA -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM To: Azinger, Fred Cc: Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not really. Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and fairly normal trajectory. When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging electronics. KISS ruled. Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what you want it to do. :) But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions for that, I dare ya! +McG+ > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl > motor for the booster. > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to > a Bates configuration's tail off. > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > Apache. > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both > stages make the same decision at the same time... > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming > until after staging. > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > Food for thought, > FredA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > To: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > +McG+ > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> Tim >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 08:45:20 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:45:20 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Fwd: Certifications in 2009 In-Reply-To: References: <4612FB4D2B92414DA8291513B1B8DBB5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Christopher Guenther Date: Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Certifications in 2009 To: Robert Krausert Your Name: Christopher J Guenther with NAR, TRA or CAR: NAR Level achieved: L1 Rocket Name: PML Cirrus Frankendart Motor: H238T At What Launch (Location & Name): Sheridan Oregon, Fillible's Folly Date: 9/13/2009 Anything you'd like to share: The reason for the name change is the first attempt the day prior deployed the confetti recovery method mid flight. I did a crude rebuild in the field, which turned a great looking rocket into an ugly Hodge Podge, and had a successful flight. On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > Hello, > If you received one or more TRA, NAR, or CAR certifications in the 2009 > year, please let me know. I only ask for a few things. I'd like to know, and > would like your permission to share. Can be L1, 2 and/or 3. If you got more > than one, please repeat the info below for each. > > Your Name: > with NAR, TRA or CAR: > Level achieved: > Rocket Name: > Motor: > At What Launch (Location & Name): > Date: > Anything you'd like to share: > > Truly appreciate the information. And also, please know that by sending the > information, you're giving me the OK to post it. > > To me please, off list. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 08:51:02 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:51:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Certifications in 2009 In-Reply-To: <4612FB4D2B92414DA8291513B1B8DBB5@LaptopKrausert> References: <4612FB4D2B92414DA8291513B1B8DBB5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: **Your Name: Christopher J Guenther with NAR, TRA or CAR: NAR Level achieved: L2 Rocket Name: The Seaker Motor: J570W-14 At What Launch (Location & Name): Brothers Oregon, Rocketober Date: 10/16/2009 Anything you'd like to share: I Scratch built the Seaker within Rocksim9 using materials I had on hand. I used motor ejection with two 48 inch chutes at apogee which made for a 2+ mile walk through the sage to go collect it. I am now working on a dual deployment system for it. On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > Hello, > If you received one or more TRA, NAR, or CAR certifications in the 2009 > year, please let me know. I only ask for a few things. I'd like to know, and > would like your permission to share. Can be L1, 2 and/or 3. If you got more > than one, please repeat the info below for each. > > Your Name: > with NAR, TRA or CAR: > Level achieved: > Rocket Name: > Motor: > At What Launch (Location & Name): > Date: > Anything you'd like to share: > > Truly appreciate the information. And also, please know that by sending the > information, you're giving me the OK to post it. > > To me please, off list. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 09:20:22 2009 From: whiteboardofsilliness at gmail.com (Dietrich Podmajersky) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:20:22 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DBE4@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <4c867e7da3c6a30d84b5748145c001bb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <005301ca5d5c$a89bfd10$f9d3f730$@com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DBE4@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. It is a logic puzzle really. Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates events. Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. instead of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of is anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to actually stage. Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor burnout... ect. For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of 0-100 to the master control unit. 0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem reporting 0 prevents staging. Beyond that each subsystem could be programed to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons are to staging. For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. You could then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. Add all subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value is above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has been determined to have peaked you stage. In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be defined with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games in the window called "good enough" And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life without challenges. -Dietrich On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter wrote: > I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for > "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". > > If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is > pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA 98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' > Cc: 'Rocket Lost' > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Ken -- nice read! > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become > the issue. > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed > interesting thinking. > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about > that one. > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) > FredA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM > To: Azinger, Fred > Cc: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not > really. > > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the > state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't > necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and > fairly normal trajectory. > > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To > overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of > an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging > electronics. KISS ruled. > > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't > an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming > the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and > building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of > events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be > fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a > lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what > you want it to do. :) > > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to > a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I > try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, > maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, > don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions > for that, I dare ya! > +McG+ > > > > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl > > motor for the booster. > > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to > > > a Bates configuration's tail off. > > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the > > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > > > Apache. > > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster > > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both > > stages make the same decision at the same time... > > > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > > > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming > > until after staging. > > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > > Food for thought, > > FredA > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > > To: Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy > SpaceXs." > > > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all > > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > > +McG+ > > > > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > >> > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > >> > >> Tim > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From clappfamily at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 09:34:40 2009 From: clappfamily at comcast.net (clappfamily at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:34:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1815522654.4597081257356080981.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> If a wireless system is going to be used I think that would also be the time to setup remote arming and system status.? I think it's silly that we still have people climbing towers to arm electronics.? I've seen enough accidents to really want to see an advance in that part of the hobby. Rick Clapp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dietrich Podmajersky" To: "Peter Schurke" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:20:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. ?It is a logic puzzle really. Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates events. Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. ?instead of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of is anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to actually stage. ?Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor burnout... ect. For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of 0-100 to the master control unit. ?0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem reporting 0 prevents staging. ?Beyond that each subsystem could be programed to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons are to staging. ?For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. ?You could then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. ?Add all subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value is above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has been determined to have peaked ?you stage. In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be defined with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games in the window called "good enough" And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life without challenges. -Dietrich On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter wrote: > I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for > "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". > > If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is > pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA ?98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > ?[mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' > Cc: 'Rocket Lost' > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Ken -- nice read! > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become > the issue. > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed > interesting thinking. > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about > that one. > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ?;-) > FredA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM > To: Azinger, Fred > Cc: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not > really. > > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the > state of electronics was the major barrier. ?Smart staging doesn't > necessarily have to be particularly smart. ?But not-very-smart staging > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and > fairly normal trajectory. > > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. ?To > overcome this the software becomes complicated. ?25-30 years ago you > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. ?So the somewhat-smart staging > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. ?They > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of > an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging > electronics. ?KISS ruled. > > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't > an issue. ?What you run into is that you begin to realize programming > the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and > building the rest of the rocket. ?It's the old bugaboo of artificial > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. ?What you're trying to do > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of > events that indicate it's time to stage. ?Sometimes that gets to be > fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. ?I certainly don't need to give Fred a > lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what > you want it to do. ?:) > > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to > a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. ?But every time I > try to work that out my brain explodes. ?Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, > maybe. ?My brain still explodes. ?Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, > don't know, don't care. ?Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions > for that, I dare ya! > +McG+ > > > > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl > > motor for the booster. > > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to > > > a Bates configuration's tail off. > > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the > > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > > > Apache. > > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster > > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both > > stages make the same decision at the same time... > > > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > > > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming > > until after staging. > > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > > Food for thought, > > FredA > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > > To: Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy > SpaceXs." > > > > That about sums it up. ?Standard US government policy(in almost all > > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. ?What a waste! > > +McG+ > > > > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > >> > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > >> > >> Tim > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ?? From raystoner99 at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 10:05:07 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (raystoner99 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:05:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <1815522654.4597081257356080981.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1070432188.4260121257357907698.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I don't like the idea of software control of pyro channels. I'd prefer to climb a ladder and make/break a physical connection to the electronics. I just don't like a processor making that decision for me. When I turn the electronics off (and thereby the control to the pyro), I want them to be OFF. Ask Brad what its like to disassemble a rocket to safe it with an active set of electronics when a software on/off switch decided it knew better than the human. Of course, when the risk of arming/disarming is less than other factors, I'd fully support remote controls to arm/disarm. I think I'd still prefer a physical make/break connection, if possible. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: clappfamily at comcast.net To: "Dietrich Podmajersky" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:34:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 If a wireless system is going to be used I think that would also be the time to setup remote arming and system status. I think it's silly that we still have people climbing towers to arm electronics. I've seen enough accidents to really want to see an advance in that part of the hobby. Rick Clapp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dietrich Podmajersky" To: "Peter Schurke" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:20:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. It is a logic puzzle really. Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates events. Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. instead of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of is anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to actually stage. Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor burnout... ect. For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of 0-100 to the master control unit. 0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem reporting 0 prevents staging. Beyond that each subsystem could be programed to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons are to staging. For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. You could then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. Add all subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value is above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has been determined to have peaked you stage. In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be defined with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games in the window called "good enough" And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life without challenges. -Dietrich On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter wrote: > I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for > "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". > > If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is > pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA 98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' > Cc: 'Rocket Lost' > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Ken -- nice read! > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become > the issue. > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed > interesting thinking. > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about > that one. > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) > FredA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM > To: Azinger, Fred > Cc: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not > really. > > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the > state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't > necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and > fairly normal trajectory. > > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To > overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of > an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging > electronics. KISS ruled. > > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't > an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming > the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and > building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of > events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be > fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a > lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what > you want it to do. :) > > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to > a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I > try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, > maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, > don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions > for that, I dare ya! > +McG+ > > > > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl > > motor for the booster. > > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to > > > a Bates configuration's tail off. > > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the > > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > > > Apache. > > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster > > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both > > stages make the same decision at the same time... > > > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > > > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming > > until after staging. > > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > > Food for thought, > > FredA > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > > To: Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy > SpaceXs." > > > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all > > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > > +McG+ > > > > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > >> > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > >> > >> Tim > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From clappfamily at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 10:12:39 2009 From: clappfamily at comcast.net (clappfamily at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:12:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <1070432188.4260121257357907698.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1546647608.4618621257358359976.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I think it needs a Master Power that once turned off safe's the system.? So you could power that part of the system up before the rocket is raised.? Once raised then arming the rest of the electronics and checking the status of pyro channels, etc would be done remotely. I wonder who gets the job of climbing the tower for the Shuttle and turning the arming switch on the side of the rocket.? :-) Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: raystoner99 at comcast.net To: clappfamily at comcast.net Cc: "Rocket Lost" , "Dietrich Podmajersky" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 10:05:07 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I don't like the idea of software control of pyro channels.? I'd prefer to climb a ladder and make/break a physical connection to the electronics.? I just don't like a processor making that decision for me.? When I turn the electronics off (and thereby the control to the pyro), I want them to be OFF. Ask Brad what its like to disassemble a rocket to safe it with an active set of electronics when a software on/off switch decided it knew better than the human. Of course, when the risk of arming/disarming is less than other factors, I'd fully support remote controls to arm/disarm.? I think I'd still prefer a physical make/break connection, if possible. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: clappfamily at comcast.net To: "Dietrich Podmajersky" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:34:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 If a wireless system is going to be used I think that would also be the time to setup remote arming and system status.? I think it's silly that we still have people climbing towers to arm electronics.? I've seen enough accidents to really want to see an advance in that part of the hobby. Rick Clapp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dietrich Podmajersky" To: "Peter Schurke" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:20:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. ?It is a logic puzzle really. Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates events. Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. ?instead of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of is anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to actually stage. ?Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor burnout... ect. For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of 0-100 to the master control unit. ?0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem reporting 0 prevents staging. ?Beyond that each subsystem could be programed to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons are to staging. ?For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. ?You could then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. ?Add all subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value is above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has been determined to have peaked ?you stage. In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be defined with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games in the window called "good enough" And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life without challenges. -Dietrich On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter wrote: > I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for > "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". > > If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is > pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA ?98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > ?[mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' > Cc: 'Rocket Lost' > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Ken -- nice read! > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become > the issue. > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed > interesting thinking. > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about > that one. > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ?;-) > FredA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM > To: Azinger, Fred > Cc: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not > really. > > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the > state of electronics was the major barrier. ?Smart staging doesn't > necessarily have to be particularly smart. ?But not-very-smart staging > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and > fairly normal trajectory. > > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. ?To > overcome this the software becomes complicated. ?25-30 years ago you > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. ?So the somewhat-smart staging > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. ?They > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of > an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging > electronics. ?KISS ruled. > > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't > an issue. ?What you run into is that you begin to realize programming > the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and > building the rest of the rocket. ?It's the old bugaboo of artificial > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. ?What you're trying to do > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of > events that indicate it's time to stage. ?Sometimes that gets to be > fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. ?I certainly don't need to give Fred a > lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what > you want it to do. ?:) > > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to > a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. ?But every time I > try to work that out my brain explodes. ?Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, > maybe. ?My brain still explodes. ?Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, > don't know, don't care. ?Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions > for that, I dare ya! > +McG+ > > > > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl > > motor for the booster. > > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to > > > a Bates configuration's tail off. > > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the > > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > > > Apache. > > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster > > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both > > stages make the same decision at the same time... > > > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > > > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming > > until after staging. > > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > > Food for thought, > > FredA > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > > To: Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy > SpaceXs." > > > > That about sums it up. ?Standard US government policy(in almost all > > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. ?What a waste! > > +McG+ > > > > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > >> > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > >> > >> Tim > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ?? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ?? From jhadv at pacifier.com Wed Nov 4 10:22:09 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:22:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091104101440.03fb1c28@mail.iinet.com> I would point out that back in the day a number of multi-stage vehicles solved this problem straight mechanically. True the motors were liquid so you just shut them down but the corollary is having a solid motor that is predictable and repetitive. If you have a predictable motor then the rest of this is complicated but it would seem to me not to be unmanageable. I think one of the things I would do is go for a very positive separation. Very positive. From raystoner99 at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 10:29:50 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (raystoner99 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:29:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <1546647608.4618621257358359976.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <311760370.4273391257359390549.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well that would be one option that would lend some safety. Making an assumption of course, that the system was reliable. Climbing can be done very safely, will minimal risk. Agreed, that most don't do it that way. Flipping the switch on the Shuttle? I don't know, maybe one of the guys in the "capsule"? (-: Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: clappfamily at comcast.net To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: "Rocket Lost" , "Dietrich Podmajersky" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 10:12:39 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I think it needs a Master Power that once turned off safe's the system. So you could power that part of the system up before the rocket is raised. Once raised then arming the rest of the electronics and checking the status of pyro channels, etc would be done remotely. I wonder who gets the job of climbing the tower for the Shuttle and turning the arming switch on the side of the rocket. :-) Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: raystoner99 at comcast.net To: clappfamily at comcast.net Cc: "Rocket Lost" , "Dietrich Podmajersky" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 10:05:07 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I don't like the idea of software control of pyro channels. I'd prefer to climb a ladder and make/break a physical connection to the electronics. I just don't like a processor making that decision for me. When I turn the electronics off (and thereby the control to the pyro), I want them to be OFF. Ask Brad what its like to disassemble a rocket to safe it with an active set of electronics when a software on/off switch decided it knew better than the human. Of course, when the risk of arming/disarming is less than other factors, I'd fully support remote controls to arm/disarm. I think I'd still prefer a physical make/break connection, if possible. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: clappfamily at comcast.net To: "Dietrich Podmajersky" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:34:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 If a wireless system is going to be used I think that would also be the time to setup remote arming and system status. I think it's silly that we still have people climbing towers to arm electronics. I've seen enough accidents to really want to see an advance in that part of the hobby. Rick Clapp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dietrich Podmajersky" To: "Peter Schurke" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:20:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. It is a logic puzzle really. Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates events. Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. instead of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of is anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to actually stage. Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor burnout... ect. For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of 0-100 to the master control unit. 0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem reporting 0 prevents staging. Beyond that each subsystem could be programed to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons are to staging. For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. You could then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. Add all subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value is above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has been determined to have peaked you stage. In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be defined with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games in the window called "good enough" And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life without challenges. -Dietrich On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter wrote: > I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for > "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". > > If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is > pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA 98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' > Cc: 'Rocket Lost' > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Ken -- nice read! > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become > the issue. > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed > interesting thinking. > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about > that one. > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) > FredA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM > To: Azinger, Fred > Cc: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not > really. > > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the > state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't > necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and > fairly normal trajectory. > > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To > overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of > an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging > electronics. KISS ruled. > > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't > an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming > the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and > building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of > events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be > fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a > lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what > you want it to do. :) > > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to > a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I > try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, > maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, > don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions > for that, I dare ya! > +McG+ > > > > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl > > motor for the booster. > > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to > > > a Bates configuration's tail off. > > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the > > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > > > Apache. > > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster > > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both > > stages make the same decision at the same time... > > > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > > > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming > > until after staging. > > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > > Food for thought, > > FredA > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > > To: Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy > SpaceXs." > > > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all > > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > > +McG+ > > > > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > >> > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > >> > >> Tim > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 10:50:08 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:50:08 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <1815522654.4597081257356080981.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1815522654.4597081257356080981.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I was thinking about a modification to the arming system. 1. You take said rocket as is. 2. Get a cheap Rc 1 or 2 channel transmitter and receiver. 3. Get a high strength hobby servo. 4. Hook the servo to your arming switch 5. Have your telemetry broadcast on power up. 6. If you used a 2 channel system channel 2 could be wired to your ematch on main booster. 7. Sit back, call the countdown, hit the button on your transmitter, and watch a wireless liftoff. On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 9:34 AM, wrote: > > > If a wireless system is going to be used I think that would also be the > time to setup remote arming and system status. I think it's silly that we > still have people climbing towers to arm electronics. I've seen enough > accidents to really want to see an advance in that part of the hobby. > > > > > > Rick Clapp > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dietrich Podmajersky" > To: "Peter Schurke" > Cc: "Rocket Lost" > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:20:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a > reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. It is a > logic puzzle really. > > Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with > logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master > control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates > events. > > Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. instead > of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of is > anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then > use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to > actually stage. Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor > burnout... ect. > > For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of > 0-100 > to the master control unit. 0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem > reporting 0 prevents staging. Beyond that each subsystem could be > programed > to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons > are to staging. For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have > decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. You could > then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. Add all > subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value is > above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has > been determined to have peaked you stage. > > In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" > time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be defined > with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games > in the window called "good enough" > > > And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life > without challenges. > > -Dietrich > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter < > pmschurke at seattleschools.org > > wrote: > > > I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for > > "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". > > > > If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is > > pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... > > > > > > Peter Schurke > > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > > Ingraham High School > > 1819 N 135th St > > Seattle, WA 98133 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger > > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' > > Cc: 'Rocket Lost' > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > Ken -- nice read! > > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become > > the issue. > > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. > > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed > > interesting thinking. > > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about > > that one. > > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) > > FredA > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM > > To: Azinger, Fred > > Cc: Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not > > really. > > > > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the > > state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't > > necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging > > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and > > fairly normal trajectory. > > > > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust > > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart > > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To > > overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you > > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for > > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging > > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They > > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of > > an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging > > electronics. KISS ruled. > > > > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't > > an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming > > the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and > > building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial > > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple > > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do > > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of > > events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be > > fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a > > lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what > > you want it to do. :) > > > > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to > > a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I > > try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, > > maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, > > don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions > > for that, I dare ya! > > +McG+ > > > > > > > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl > > > motor for the booster. > > > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to > > > > > a Bates configuration's tail off. > > > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > > > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the > > > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > > > > > Apache. > > > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster > > > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both > > > stages make the same decision at the same time... > > > > > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > > > > > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > > > > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming > > > until after staging. > > > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > > > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > > > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > > > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > > > > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > > > Food for thought, > > > FredA > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > > > To: Rocket Lost > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > > > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy > > SpaceXs." > > > > > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all > > > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > > > +McG+ > > > > > > > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > > >> > > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > > >> > > >> Tim > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rockets mailing list > > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 10:58:59 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:58:59 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: References: <1815522654.4597081257356080981.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Oh and you don't have to stop there you could go for more channels to use as backup #3 deployment systems. Like channel 3 for apogee/drogue, channel 4 for main. Even channel 5 and 6 for multiple stage separations and ignitions. As long as you have live telemetry and a strong transmitter and receiver you could be completely wireless on every aspect. The only thing you would have to do is add the emathces and load the rocket on the pad, everything else could be operated via transmitter from the flight line. On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Christopher Guenther < guentherchristopher at gmail.com> wrote: > I was thinking about a modification to the arming system. > > 1. You take said rocket as is. > 2. Get a cheap Rc 1 or 2 channel transmitter and receiver. > 3. Get a high strength hobby servo. > 4. Hook the servo to your arming switch > 5. Have your telemetry broadcast on power up. > 6. If you used a 2 channel system channel 2 could be wired to your ematch > on main booster. > 7. Sit back, call the countdown, hit the button on your transmitter, and > watch a wireless liftoff. > > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 9:34 AM, wrote: > >> >> >> If a wireless system is going to be used I think that would also be the >> time to setup remote arming and system status. I think it's silly that we >> still have people climbing towers to arm electronics. I've seen enough >> accidents to really want to see an advance in that part of the hobby. >> >> >> >> >> >> Rick Clapp >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dietrich Podmajersky" >> To: "Peter Schurke" >> Cc: "Rocket Lost" >> Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:20:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a >> reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. It is a >> logic puzzle really. >> >> Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with >> logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master >> control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates >> events. >> >> Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. >> instead >> of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of >> is >> anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then >> use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to >> actually stage. Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor >> burnout... ect. >> >> For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of >> 0-100 >> to the master control unit. 0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem >> reporting 0 prevents staging. Beyond that each subsystem could be >> programed >> to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons >> are to staging. For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have >> decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. You could >> then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. Add all >> subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value >> is >> above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has >> been determined to have peaked you stage. >> >> In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" >> time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be >> defined >> with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games >> in the window called "good enough" >> >> >> And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life >> without challenges. >> >> -Dietrich >> >> On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter < >> pmschurke at seattleschools.org >> > wrote: >> >> > I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for >> > "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". >> > >> > If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is >> > pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... >> > >> > >> > Peter Schurke >> > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor >> > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy >> > Ingraham High School >> > 1819 N 135th St >> > Seattle, WA 98133 >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM >> > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' >> > Cc: 'Rocket Lost' >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> > Ken -- nice read! >> > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become >> > the issue. >> > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. >> > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed >> > interesting thinking. >> > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about >> > that one. >> > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) >> > FredA >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM >> > To: Azinger, Fred >> > Cc: Rocket Lost >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not >> > really. >> > >> > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the >> > state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't >> > necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging >> > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and >> > fairly normal trajectory. >> > >> > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust >> > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart >> > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To >> > overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you >> > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for >> > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging >> > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They >> > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of >> > an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging >> > electronics. KISS ruled. >> > >> > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't >> > an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming >> > the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and >> > building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial >> > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple >> > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do >> > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of >> > events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be >> > fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a >> > lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what >> > you want it to do. :) >> > >> > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to >> > a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I >> > try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, >> > maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, >> > don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions >> > for that, I dare ya! >> > +McG+ >> > >> > >> > > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl >> > > motor for the booster. >> > > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to >> > >> > > a Bates configuration's tail off. >> > > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor >> > > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the >> > > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. >> > > >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >> > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >> > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > > >> > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's >> > >> > > Apache. >> > > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster >> > > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both >> > > stages make the same decision at the same time... >> > > >> > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could >> > >> > > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. >> > > >> > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming >> > > until after staging. >> > > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, >> > > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >> > > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some >> > > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... >> > > >> > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >> > > Food for thought, >> > > FredA >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >> > > To: Rocket Lost >> > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > > >> > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >> > > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy >> > SpaceXs." >> > > >> > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all >> > > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >> > > +McG+ >> > > >> > > >> > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> > >> >> > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> > >> >> > >> Tim >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Rockets mailing list >> > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Rockets mailing list >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Rockets mailing list >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > From integrity at prodigy.net Wed Nov 4 11:11:43 2009 From: integrity at prodigy.net (James Rose) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:11:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091104101440.03fb1c28@mail.iinet.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091104101440.03fb1c28@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <78331.96015.qm@web180101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Has anyone tried capacitor discharge magnetic separation? ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Bogdanich To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 10:22:09 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation I would point out that back in the day a number of multi-stage vehicles solved this problem straight mechanically.? True the motors were liquid so you just shut them down but the corollary is having a solid motor that is predictable and repetitive.? If you have a predictable motor then the rest of this is complicated but it would seem to me not to be unmanageable.? I think one of the things I would do is go for a very positive separation.? Very positive.? ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From clappfamily at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 11:22:46 2009 From: clappfamily at comcast.net (clappfamily at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:22:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation In-Reply-To: <78331.96015.qm@web180101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2144483697.4655581257362566210.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The EM?Pulse might be a little hard on the electronics.? ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rose" To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 11:11:43 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation Has anyone tried capacitor discharge magnetic separation? From raystoner99 at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 12:44:18 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (raystoner99 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:44:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation In-Reply-To: <78331.96015.qm@web180101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <78797115.4333071257367458765.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I prefer the matter/antimatter reaction for separation. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rose" To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 11:11:43 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation Has anyone tried capacitor discharge magnetic separation? ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Bogdanich To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 10:22:09 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation I would point out that back in the day a number of multi-stage vehicles solved this problem straight mechanically. True the motors were liquid so you just shut them down but the corollary is having a solid motor that is predictable and repetitive. If you have a predictable motor then the rest of this is complicated but it would seem to me not to be unmanageable. I think one of the things I would do is go for a very positive separation. Very positive. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 16:13:27 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:13:27 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. Message-ID: I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw From robert.krausert at intel.com Wed Nov 4 16:21:16 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:21:16 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F57FFB@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Fred, Can I really get my L3 on a CTI K445? That's cool. The FSO might need a cup of coffee. But cool L3 attempt on a K motor. Cheers, Robert (Going for L3 on a K250) LOL -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:13 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 16:24:28 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:24:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F57FFB@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F57FFB@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: The calling of a Heads up flight, 1 altimeter, using a K445, Beer drinking going on during flights....there is more I think if you listen closely the guys name is Simon Sterling. Watch out for that guy! On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Krausert, Robert wrote: > Fred, > Can I really get my L3 on a CTI K445? That's cool. The FSO might need a cup > of coffee. But cool L3 attempt on a K motor. > > Cheers, > Robert (Going for L3 on a K250) LOL > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:13 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are > wrong with it. > > I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the > mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From seth.wallace at rocketmail.com Wed Nov 4 16:18:35 2009 From: seth.wallace at rocketmail.com (Seth Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> K motor and 1 altimeter I caught on the first pass SW --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Christopher Guenther wrote: From: Christopher Guenther Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:13 PM I found this and noticed many things wrong.? See if you can catch all the mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com Wed Nov 4 16:31:41 2009 From: john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com (john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:31:41 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> References: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368841E25F52DA@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> CAR Level 3 certifications are for J, K, L class motors. CAR Level 4 certifications are M and larger motors. John -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Seth Wallace Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:19 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. K motor and 1 altimeter I caught on the first pass SW --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Christopher Guenther wrote: From: Christopher Guenther Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:13 PM I found this and noticed many things wrong.? See if you can catch all the mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 16:40:22 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:40:22 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368841E25F52DA@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> References: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368841E25F52DA@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> Message-ID: So CAR levels are a bit different but calling a heads up and the blatant alcoholic consumption during launch activities. I am not sure if this is in Canada or the US as there is no blatant Canadian accent. The sad thing is this is only one of many such certification video's I have seen errors like this in. It seems to be a going trend of late. On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 4:31 PM, wrote: > CAR Level 3 certifications are for J, K, L class motors. > CAR Level 4 certifications are M and larger motors. > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Seth Wallace > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:19 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are > wrong with it. > > K motor and 1 altimeter I caught on the first pass > > SW > > --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Christopher Guenther > wrote: > > > From: Christopher Guenther > Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are > wrong with it. > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:13 PM > > > I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the > mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From winningstad at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 16:43:58 2009 From: winningstad at comcast.net (Dennis S Winningstad) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:43:58 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F57FFB@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <016501ca5db1$0ffd6620$2ff83260$@net> Once again the video 'person' failed to cancel auto-focus... Dennis S Winningstad 503-781-3529 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:24 PM To: Krausert, Robert Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. The calling of a Heads up flight, 1 altimeter, using a K445, Beer drinking going on during flights....there is more I think if you listen closely the guys name is Simon Sterling. Watch out for that guy! On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Krausert, Robert wrote: > Fred, > Can I really get my L3 on a CTI K445? That's cool. The FSO might need a cup > of coffee. But cool L3 attempt on a K motor. > > Cheers, > Robert (Going for L3 on a K250) LOL > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:13 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are > wrong with it. > > I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the > mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From fred at azinger.com Wed Nov 4 16:46:29 2009 From: fred at azinger.com (Fred Azinger) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:46:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F57FFB@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F57FFB@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <005201ca5db1$69d8f060$3d8ad120$@com> CAR ==== They have an added level -- this is an TRA/NAR L2 -- Their gateway to M motors is called an L4 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:21 PM To: Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. Fred, Can I really get my L3 on a CTI K445? That's cool. The FSO might need a cup of coffee. But cool L3 attempt on a K motor. Cheers, Robert (Going for L3 on a K250) LOL -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:13 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From fred at azinger.com Wed Nov 4 16:47:44 2009 From: fred at azinger.com (Fred Azinger) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:47:44 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: References: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368841E25F52DA@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> Message-ID: <005301ca5db1$967adf70$c3709e50$@com> A beer in Canada -- eh? -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:40 PM To: john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. So CAR levels are a bit different but calling a heads up and the blatant alcoholic consumption during launch activities. I am not sure if this is in Canada or the US as there is no blatant Canadian accent. The sad thing is this is only one of many such certification video's I have seen errors like this in. It seems to be a going trend of late. On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 4:31 PM, wrote: > CAR Level 3 certifications are for J, K, L class motors. > CAR Level 4 certifications are M and larger motors. > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Seth Wallace > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:19 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are > wrong with it. > > K motor and 1 altimeter I caught on the first pass > > SW > > --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Christopher Guenther > wrote: > > > From: Christopher Guenther > Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are > wrong with it. > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:13 PM > > > I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the > mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From robert.krausert at intel.com Wed Nov 4 16:55:50 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:55:50 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: <005201ca5db1$69d8f060$3d8ad120$@com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F57FFB@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <005201ca5db1$69d8f060$3d8ad120$@com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F5806E@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Well if this was CAR, no wonder. Plus CAR doesn't require redundant for L3, only L4. I listened via my laptop speakers, which high quality. ;-) I see only bad taste including beer in the video/audio. While maybe no one did anything wrong. Once you've racked it, the birds no longer in your hands. But maybe no record the celebration until afterwards. Other than that, I need a beer. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: Fred Azinger [mailto:fred at azinger.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:46 PM To: Krausert, Robert; 'Christopher Guenther'; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. CAR ==== They have an added level -- this is an TRA/NAR L2 -- Their gateway to M motors is called an L4 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:21 PM To: Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. Fred, Can I really get my L3 on a CTI K445? That's cool. The FSO might need a cup of coffee. But cool L3 attempt on a K motor. Cheers, Robert (Going for L3 on a K250) LOL -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:13 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From raystoner99 at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 17:27:36 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:27:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F5806E@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F57FFB@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <005201ca5db1$69d8f060$3d8ad120$@com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43F5806E@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <002401ca5db7$28be5100$7a3af300$@net> It's not unusual for folks to have a beer during launch operations...however, a flyer under the influence is a bad thing. I've had a drink or two during flight operations...usually during a night launch, but on a couple occasions during a late afternoon launch. I've never (that I recall) had a drink during the preparation for flight...maybe during the build! Others have pointed out that this is likely a CAR certification. Finally, it may the policy of the club to call a head's up on all certification flights...Not a bad idea if you ask me...by definition a certification flight is the first time a person has flown a motor that large...excepting a few cases (doing a cert again after letting a membership lapse, etc). SO, they aren't familiar with the power etc, and a head's up call could be a wise thing. If I were the LCO, I think I may have called a head's up on your L2 flight, just knowing that this was your 3rd high power motor ever...nothing personal, I'd do it for anyone in the same situation... A video is just a moment in time...you don't know what surrounded it, so its difficult to say they were doing something wrong... Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:56 PM To: Fred Azinger; 'Christopher Guenther'; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. Well if this was CAR, no wonder. Plus CAR doesn't require redundant for L3, only L4. I listened via my laptop speakers, which high quality. ;-) I see only bad taste including beer in the video/audio. While maybe no one did anything wrong. Once you've racked it, the birds no longer in your hands. But maybe no record the celebration until afterwards. Other than that, I need a beer. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: Fred Azinger [mailto:fred at azinger.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:46 PM To: Krausert, Robert; 'Christopher Guenther'; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. CAR ==== They have an added level -- this is an TRA/NAR L2 -- Their gateway to M motors is called an L4 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:21 PM To: Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. Fred, Can I really get my L3 on a CTI K445? That's cool. The FSO might need a cup of coffee. But cool L3 attempt on a K motor. Cheers, Robert (Going for L3 on a K250) LOL -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:13 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From winningstad at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 17:28:52 2009 From: winningstad at comcast.net (Dennis S Winningstad) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:28:52 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: References: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368841E25F52DA@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> Message-ID: <017101ca5db7$55ecc8a0$01c659e0$@net> Blatant alcohol consumption? How so?? Was it in a prep area??? Dennis S Winningstad 503-781-3529 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:40 PM To: john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. So CAR levels are a bit different but calling a heads up and the blatant alcoholic consumption during launch activities. I am not sure if this is in Canada or the US as there is no blatant Canadian accent. The sad thing is this is only one of many such certification video's I have seen errors like this in. It seems to be a going trend of late. On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 4:31 PM, wrote: > CAR Level 3 certifications are for J, K, L class motors. > CAR Level 4 certifications are M and larger motors. > > John > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Seth Wallace > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:19 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are > wrong with it. > > K motor and 1 altimeter I caught on the first pass > > SW > > --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Christopher Guenther > wrote: > > > From: Christopher Guenther > Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are > wrong with it. > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:13 PM > > > I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the > mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From rnech at yahoo.com Wed Nov 4 17:59:27 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:59:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: <016501ca5db1$0ffd6620$2ff83260$@net> Message-ID: <765092.43155.qm@web111408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This is just Bob and Doug MacKenzie out flying rockets with a beer, eh. They'll have a new movie out soon caled, "Strange Fire." Robert --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Dennis S Winningstad wrote: > From: Dennis S Winningstad > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. > To: "'Christopher Guenther'" , "'Krausert, Robert'" > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:43 PM > Once again the video 'person' failed > to cancel auto-focus... > > Dennis S Winningstad > 503-781-3529 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:24 PM > To: Krausert, Robert > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how > many things are > wrong with it. > > The calling of a Heads up flight, 1 altimeter, using a > K445, Beer drinking > going on during flights....there is more? I think if > you listen closely the > guys name is Simon Sterling.? Watch out for that guy! > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Krausert, Robert > wrote: > > > Fred, > > Can I really get my L3 on a CTI K445? That's cool. The > FSO might need a > cup > > of coffee. But cool L3 attempt on a K motor. > > > > Cheers, > > Robert (Going for L3 on a K250) LOL > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:13 PM > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count > how many things are > > wrong with it. > > > > I found this and noticed many things wrong.? See > if you can catch all the > > mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 4 18:45:55 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:45:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <005301ca5d5c$a89bfd10$f9d3f730$@com> References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <4c867e7da3c6a30d84b5748145c001bb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <005301ca5d5c$a89bfd10$f9d3f730$@com> Message-ID: <1f6a932a84413b98421d2c37199fd240.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> "Don't care" = "doesn't matter" As to the value of any great idea or deep thought of mine, well, I'm sure opossums have many great ideas too, like, "I think I'll cross the road." :) +McG+ > Ken -- nice read! > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become > the > issue. > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed > interesting thinking. > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about > that one. > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) > FredA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM > To: Azinger, Fred > Cc: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not really. > > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the > state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't > necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and > fairly normal trajectory. > > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To > overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of an > improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging > electronics. KISS ruled. > > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't > an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming the > flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and > building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of > events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be fuzzy, > and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a lecture > on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what you want > it to do. :) > > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to a > four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I try > to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, maybe. My > brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, don't know, > don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions for that, I > dare ya! > +McG+ > > >> BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl motor >> for the booster. >> The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to a >> Bates configuration's tail off. >> Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor >> calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the >> [presumed] >> primary contributor to decision timing differences. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's >> Apache. >> That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster burn-out >> in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both stages make >> the same decision at the same time... >> >> Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could >> result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. >> >> I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming until >> after staging. >> But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, >> decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >> Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some >> distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... >> >> Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >> Food for thought, >> FredA >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >> To: Rocket Lost >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >> heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy SpaceXs." >> >> That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all >> areas) >> of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >> +McG+ >> >> >>> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >>> >>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >>> >>> Tim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 4 19:11:53 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:11:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: References: <110220092154.23060.4AEF551D000D98BA00005A1422218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> <2eb9d836c64cac4e954e224465210cc7.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <4c867e7da3c6a30d84b5748145c001bb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <005301ca5d5c$a89bfd10$f9d3f730$@com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DBE4@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <0801552f92b7f95594ee77179dbc0f90.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Reversing the logic is a good point. Many biological and neurological processes are based that way. For example, the default state for consciousness is unconscious. Nature offers some important lessons on how to do things. > In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" > time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be > defined > with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games > in the window called "good enough" I like it! +McG+ > I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a > reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. It is a > logic puzzle really. > > Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with > logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master > control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates > events. > > Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. > instead > of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of > is > anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then > use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to > actually stage. Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor > burnout... ect. > > For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of > 0-100 > to the master control unit. 0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem > reporting 0 prevents staging. Beyond that each subsystem could be > programed > to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons > are to staging. For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have > decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. You could > then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. Add all > subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value > is > above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has > been determined to have peaked you stage. > > In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" > time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be > defined > with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games > in the window called "good enough" > > > And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life > without challenges. > > -Dietrich > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter > > wrote: > >> I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for >> "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". >> >> If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is >> pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... >> >> >> Peter Schurke >> Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor >> Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy >> Ingraham High School >> 1819 N 135th St >> Seattle, WA 98133 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM >> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' >> Cc: 'Rocket Lost' >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> Ken -- nice read! >> One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become >> the issue. >> I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. >> The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed >> interesting thinking. >> Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about >> that one. >> Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) >> FredA >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM >> To: Azinger, Fred >> Cc: Rocket Lost >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not >> really. >> >> Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the >> state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't >> necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging >> only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and >> fairly normal trajectory. >> >> When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust >> trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart >> staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To >> overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you >> simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for >> what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging >> designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They >> were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of >> an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging >> electronics. KISS ruled. >> >> Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't >> an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming >> the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and >> building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial >> intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple >> problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do >> here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of >> events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be >> fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a >> lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what >> you want it to do. :) >> >> But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to >> a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I >> try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, >> maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, >> don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions >> for that, I dare ya! >> +McG+ >> >> >> > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl >> > motor for the booster. >> > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to >> >> > a Bates configuration's tail off. >> > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor >> > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the >> > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >> > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's >> >> > Apache. >> > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster >> > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both >> > stages make the same decision at the same time... >> > >> > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could >> >> > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. >> > >> > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming >> > until after staging. >> > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, >> > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >> > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some >> > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... >> > >> > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >> > Food for thought, >> > FredA >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >> > To: Rocket Lost >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >> > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy >> SpaceXs." >> > >> > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all >> > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >> > +McG+ >> > >> > >> >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> >> >> Tim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > From sb at berfield.com Wed Nov 4 19:19:57 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:19:57 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <1546647608.4618621257358359976.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1070432188.4260121257357907698.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1546647608.4618621257358359976.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <002201ca5dc6$dad09150$9071b3f0$@com> You should see the size of the screwdriver they have to use. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of clappfamily at comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:13 AM To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: Rocket Lost Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I think it needs a Master Power that once turned off safe's the system. So you could power that part of the system up before the rocket is raised. Once raised then arming the rest of the electronics and checking the status of pyro channels, etc would be done remotely. I wonder who gets the job of climbing the tower for the Shuttle and turning the arming switch on the side of the rocket. :-) Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: raystoner99 at comcast.net To: clappfamily at comcast.net Cc: "Rocket Lost" , "Dietrich Podmajersky" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 10:05:07 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I don't like the idea of software control of pyro channels. I'd prefer to climb a ladder and make/break a physical connection to the electronics. I just don't like a processor making that decision for me. When I turn the electronics off (and thereby the control to the pyro), I want them to be OFF. Ask Brad what its like to disassemble a rocket to safe it with an active set of electronics when a software on/off switch decided it knew better than the human. Of course, when the risk of arming/disarming is less than other factors, I'd fully support remote controls to arm/disarm. I think I'd still prefer a physical make/break connection, if possible. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: clappfamily at comcast.net To: "Dietrich Podmajersky" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:34:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 If a wireless system is going to be used I think that would also be the time to setup remote arming and system status. I think it's silly that we still have people climbing towers to arm electronics. I've seen enough accidents to really want to see an advance in that part of the hobby. Rick Clapp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dietrich Podmajersky" To: "Peter Schurke" Cc: "Rocket Lost" Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:20:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. It is a logic puzzle really. Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates events. Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. instead of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of is anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to actually stage. Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor burnout... ect. For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of 0-100 to the master control unit. 0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem reporting 0 prevents staging. Beyond that each subsystem could be programed to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons are to staging. For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. You could then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. Add all subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value is above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has been determined to have peaked you stage. In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be defined with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games in the window called "good enough" And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life without challenges. -Dietrich On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter wrote: > I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for > "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". > > If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is > pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA 98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' > Cc: 'Rocket Lost' > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > Ken -- nice read! > One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become > the issue. > I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. > The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed > interesting thinking. > Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about > that one. > Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) > FredA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM > To: Azinger, Fred > Cc: Rocket Lost > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not > really. > > Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the > state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't > necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging > only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and > fairly normal trajectory. > > When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust > trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart > staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To > overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you > simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for > what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging > designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They > were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of > an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging > electronics. KISS ruled. > > Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't > an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming > the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and > building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial > intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple > problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do > here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of > events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be > fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a > lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what > you want it to do. :) > > But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to > a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I > try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, > maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, > don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions > for that, I dare ya! > +McG+ > > > > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl > > motor for the booster. > > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to > > > a Bates configuration's tail off. > > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor > > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the > > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's > > > Apache. > > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster > > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both > > stages make the same decision at the same time... > > > > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could > > > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. > > > > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming > > until after staging. > > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, > > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... > > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some > > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... > > > > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... > > Food for thought, > > FredA > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM > > To: Rocket Lost > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the > > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy > SpaceXs." > > > > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all > > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! > > +McG+ > > > > > >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. > >> > >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html > >> > >> Tim > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 4 19:27:13 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 In-Reply-To: <1070432188.4260121257357907698.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.ma il.comcast.net> References: <1070432188.4260121257357907698.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: As a former pyro, I second the idea. "Off" should mean OFF. I've had to fight too many things where "off" means "sleep". When dealing with high energy materials and devices, it's very important to have absolute control and know the difference between off, power save, sleep, etc. Even when I shut my computer "off" there's a little green LED inside the case that tells me it's still not truly OFF. That and the microphones they put on motherboards these days makes me a bit leery. Call me old school, but dangit, when I want something turned "off" I mean stone cold dead... With things pyrotechnic, if "off" doesn't mean OFF then *you* just might end up "stone cold dead." +McG+ > I don't like the idea of software control of pyro channels. I'd prefer to > climb a ladder and make/break a physical connection to the electronics. I > just don't like a processor making that decision for me. When I turn the > electronics off (and thereby the control to the pyro), I want them to be > OFF. > > Ask Brad what its like to disassemble a rocket to safe it with an active > set of electronics when a software on/off switch decided it knew better > than the human. > > Of course, when the risk of arming/disarming is less than other factors, > I'd fully support remote controls to arm/disarm. I think I'd still prefer > a physical make/break connection, if possible. > > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: clappfamily at comcast.net > To: "Dietrich Podmajersky" > Cc: "Rocket Lost" > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:34:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > > > If a wireless system is going to be used I think that would also be the > time to setup remote arming and system status. I think it's silly that we > still have people climbing towers to arm electronics. I've seen enough > accidents to really want to see an advance in that part of the hobby. > > > > > > Rick Clapp > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dietrich Podmajersky" > To: "Peter Schurke" > Cc: "Rocket Lost" > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:20:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 > > I have to agree.. I believe the hardware is now readly availible at a > reasonable price point, and now the challenge is in the software. It is a > logic puzzle really. > > Seems to me the thing to do would be to create a distributed system with > logic in each part that determines and reports state and a single master > control module that queries state makes judgement calls and initiates > events. > > Also I think that it may be more appropriate to reverse the logic. instead > of asking is it time to stage the logic could be more along the lines of > is > anything present that flags"do not stage" and if that is not the case then > use some heuristic logic to determine if it is the "optimum" time to > actually stage. Since "optimum" will vary launch to launch.. wind motor > burnout... ect. > > For instance if you had a multiple subsystems that reported a value of > 0-100 > to the master control unit. 0 means "do not stage".. so any subsystem > reporting 0 prevents staging. Beyond that each subsystem could be > programed > to report a value between 1 and 100 determining how "Ideal it's conditons > are to staging. For instance a sensor that reads if the stages have > decoupled would either throw a 0 or a 100 since it is binary. You could > then weight different subsystems by applying a multiplier. Add all > subsystems together and evaluate the result ... when the resulting value > is > above a certain threshold and has stabilized at it's highest value or has > been determined to have peaked you stage. > > In summary rather than it being about determing when it is the "perfect" > time to stage you determine when not to stage (which I think can be > defined > with more precision and accuracy) and then play fuzzy weighted logic games > in the window called "good enough" > > > And yes the software gets complex and challenging... but what is life > without challenges. > > -Dietrich > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Schurke, Peter > > wrote: > >> I would submit that you need a sixth state (or maybe a substitute for >> "don't care")...let us refer to it as "holy crap!". >> >> If for some reason your rocket has encountered "very bad things" and is >> pointing in an "undesirable" direction at staging... >> >> >> Peter Schurke >> Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor >> Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy >> Ingraham High School >> 1819 N 135th St >> Seattle, WA 98133 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:40 AM >> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; 'Azinger, Fred' >> Cc: 'Rocket Lost' >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> Ken -- nice read! >> One would think that we now have the HW to do this -- and SW will become >> the issue. >> I like the notion that binary states are not nearly enough. >> The five states of yes, no, maybe, don't know, don't care are indeed >> interesting thinking. >> Not sure I see the value of Don't Care yet, but I'll need to think about >> that one. >> Hopefully my brain won't explode. ;-) >> FredA >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:27 PM >> To: Azinger, Fred >> Cc: Rocket Lost >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> >> In a way this matter of smart staging seems easier today, but not >> really. >> >> Back in the early eighties when I was wrestling with this problem the >> state of electronics was the major barrier. Smart staging doesn't >> necessarily have to be particularly smart. But not-very-smart staging >> only works within well defined parameters, like crisp motor cutoff and >> fairly normal trajectory. >> >> When you extend the degree of complexity with things like motor thrust >> trail-off, clusters, unexpected wind, etc. then you end up with smart >> staging that, basically, gets confused and behaves incorrectly. To >> overcome this the software becomes complicated. 25-30 years ago you >> simply couldn't cram enough processing power into a flight computer for >> what was then a 'large' hobby rocket. So the somewhat-smart staging >> designs tended to more often than not fail badly in simulations. They >> were just smart enough to be easily confused and weren't really much of >> an improvement over the much cheaper and smaller not-very-smart staging >> electronics. KISS ruled. >> >> Today, hardware limitations on processing power and memory really aren't >> an issue. What you run into is that you begin to realize programming >> the flight computer is going to take a lot more work than designing and >> building the rest of the rocket. It's the old bugaboo of artificial >> intelligence: Some of the things that early on seemed to be simple >> problems turned out to be horribly difficult. What you're trying to do >> here is build a flight computer capable of recognizing the pattern of >> events that indicate it's time to stage. Sometimes that gets to be >> fuzzy, and fuzzy logic may apply. I certainly don't need to give Fred a >> lecture on the difficulty of programming fuzzy logic to do exactly what >> you want it to do. :) >> >> But I have often mused that maybe we need to move beyond binary logic to >> a four-state system: Yes, no, don't know, don't care. But every time I >> try to work that out my brain explodes. Or maybe trinary: Yes, no, >> maybe. My brain still explodes. Or maybe five-state: Yes, no, maybe, >> don't know, don't care. Go ahead and work out the basic logic functions >> for that, I dare ya! >> +McG+ >> >> >> > BTW: this concern is one of the reasons I choose to make a Finocyl >> > motor for the booster. >> > The thrust curve is much more square with a crisp shutdown compared to >> >> > a Bates configuration's tail off. >> > Hopefully this crisp shutoff will reduce any concerns with sensor >> > calibration or hysteresis....leaving just timing jitter as the >> > [presumed] primary contributor to decision timing differences. >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of Azinger, Fred >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:27 AM >> > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; Rocket Lost >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> > Interesting article and highlights a concern I have in Team Hardtail's >> >> > Apache. >> > That issue being the combined concern of detecting true booster >> > burn-out in two (or more) flight computers and making sure that both >> > stages make the same decision at the same time... >> > >> > Incorrect and/or non-coincident burnout detection between stages could >> >> > result in a span of issues from collision to CATO. >> > >> > I use matched electronics in each stage with identical programming >> > until after staging. >> > But I still sweat all the unknowns contributed by sensor calibration, >> > decision hysteresis, timing-loop jitter and many others......... >> > Wish we had more powerful "single control" flight computers with some >> > distributed I/O....that didn't cost and arm and a leg....... >> > >> > Oh, to have tons of spare time to develop........... >> > Food for thought, >> > FredA >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 6:42 PM >> > To: Rocket Lost >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ares 1 >> > >> > "For what NASA proposes to spend on Ares I itself, (forget about the >> > heavy-lifter and the Orion crew module), it could form seventy >> SpaceXs." >> > >> > That about sums it up. Standard US government policy(in almost all >> > areas) of minimum return on maximum expenditure. What a waste! >> > +McG+ >> > >> > >> >> Interesting Popular Mechanics article on the recent Ares 1 test. >> >> >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4335662.html >> >> >> >> Tim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From sb at berfield.com Wed Nov 4 19:27:03 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:27:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> References: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002301ca5dc7$d846bcb0$88d43610$@com> CAR Certs levels 1, 2, 3 & 4. 3 goes up to L, so a K is cool. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Seth Wallace Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:19 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. K motor and 1 altimeter I caught on the first pass SW --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Christopher Guenther wrote: From: Christopher Guenther Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:13 PM I found this and noticed many things wrong.? See if you can catch all the mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 4 19:42:34 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:42:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation In-Reply-To: <78331.96015.qm@web180101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091104101440.03fb1c28@mail.iinet.com> <78331.96015.qm@web180101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10bc54920f3fdddde7f3b4a84f5e281e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> > Has anyone tried capacitor discharge magnetic separation? I have considered both electromagnets and a permanent magnet/Curie point method of holding sections together. An electromagnet and battery tends to be too heavy and Curie point release not quick enough(and besides, the gadolinium requires reliable cooling). Turns out geared-down motors(i.e., servos) are better than solenoids as actuator mechanisms. I'm still rattling the idea of "muscle wire" around around in my mostly empty noggin. Maybe in some cases. And then there's the fusible alloy idea(melting rivets instead of exploding bolts), which still takes too much power. Using an electrically initiated intermetallic alloying reaction to provide the heat for "melting rivets" remains on the 'dreaming board.' BP and ematches rule for now. +McG+ > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Paul Bogdanich > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 10:22:09 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Stage Separation > > I would point out that back in the day a number of multi-stage vehicles > solved this problem straight mechanically.? True the motors were liquid so > you just shut them down but the corollary is having a solid motor that is > predictable and repetitive.? If you have a predictable motor then the rest > of this is complicated but it would seem to me not to be unmanageable.? I > think one of the things I would do is go for a very positive separation.? > Very positive.? ? > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From clappfamily at comcast.net Wed Nov 4 20:01:58 2009 From: clappfamily at comcast.net (ClappFamily) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:01:58 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] October Brothers Message-ID: <52FF10D2A309461593C0064996FE1923@D8M6PR71> I just posted few photos from the October launch on the NW Rocketry Image Gallery Enjoy Rick From Mfreptiles at aol.com Wed Nov 4 21:15:05 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:15:05 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with... Message-ID: I had a beer after my L3 flight. I won't mention what I took before flight prep that morning. Worst back pain of my life after spending the night wrapped like a mummy in 14 degree F. The recovery hike was slow going. Those days, TRA only required one altimeter for L3, although I did fly two, both set for single deploy at apogee. Mike F. From andrewm at hawkfeather.com Thu Nov 5 13:16:59 2009 From: andrewm at hawkfeather.com (Andrew MacMillen) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:16:59 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are wrong with it. In-Reply-To: References: <470751.9662.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368841E25F52DA@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> Message-ID: <4AF340CB.5090705@hawkfeather.com> When I flew at a CAR launch in Alberta (same spot as this video), all cert flights were heads up. So were hybrids ;) So were first flights above D. Just their SOP. Andrew. Christopher Guenther wrote: > So CAR levels are a bit different but calling a heads up and the blatant > alcoholic consumption during launch activities. I am not sure if this is in > Canada or the US as there is no blatant Canadian accent. The sad thing is > this is only one of many such certification video's I have seen errors like > this in. It seems to be a going trend of late. > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 4:31 PM, wrote: > >> CAR Level 3 certifications are for J, K, L class motors. >> CAR Level 4 certifications are M and larger motors. >> >> John >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Seth Wallace >> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:19 PM >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are >> wrong with it. >> >> K motor and 1 altimeter I caught on the first pass >> >> SW >> >> --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Christopher Guenther >> wrote: >> >> >> From: Christopher Guenther >> Subject: [RocketsNW] Check out this video and count how many things are >> wrong with it. >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:13 PM >> >> >> I found this and noticed many things wrong. See if you can catch all the >> mistakes of this supposed L3 cert flight. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71_71LxPLUw >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From sb at berfield.com Thu Nov 5 15:43:38 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:43:38 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Message-ID: After what altitude should I worry about whether BP will work properly for deployment? From raystoner99 at comcast.net Thu Nov 5 15:46:09 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:46:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001ca5e72$2acb9c30$8062d490$@net> I worry about it at all altitudes...or rather, I worry about ME at all altitudes. Above about 25K, I'd start thinking about containing it in something air tight, or move to CO2. Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Scott Berfield Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:44 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude After what altitude should I worry about whether BP will work properly for deployment? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From greg at blastzone.com Thu Nov 5 15:49:00 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:49:00 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05dc01ca5e72$8ceb8b50$a6c2a1f0$@com> Everyone is different, but I start worrying about it myself at 15k. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Scott Berfield > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:44 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > After what altitude should I worry about whether BP will work properly for > deployment? > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From Peter.T.Ekstrom at jci.com Thu Nov 5 16:04:51 2009 From: Peter.T.Ekstrom at jci.com (Peter.T.Ekstrom at jci.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:04:51 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've tested BP sealed in surgical tubing in my mixing bowl under a vacuum. Best guesstimate is that it should work fine to 60,000 ft. But anything much over 40,000, I'd start thinking about CO2. "Scott Berfield" Sent by: To rockets-bounces at r rockets at rocketsnw.com ocketsnw.com cc Subject 11/05/2009 03:44 [RocketsNW] BP and altitude PM After what altitude should I worry about whether BP will work properly for deployment? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sealtee at cableone.net Fri Nov 6 13:48:28 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:48:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Message-ID: <002901ca5f2a$e03fc060$a0bf4120$@net> Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, so exactly what is this concern? Thanks, Cameron From robert.krausert at intel.com Fri Nov 6 13:55:35 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:55:35 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <002901ca5f2a$e03fc060$a0bf4120$@net> References: <002901ca5f2a$e03fc060$a0bf4120$@net> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, so exactly what is this concern? Thanks, Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From robert.krausert at intel.com Fri Nov 6 14:03:52 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:03:52 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <002901ca5f2a$e03fc060$a0bf4120$@net> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADDCF@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Cameron, I got buzzed by the game panel. So I think my answer is wrong. [shakes hand of host and walks off the show waving at the crowd] Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:56 PM To: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, so exactly what is this concern? Thanks, Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From raystoner99 at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 14:07:40 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (raystoner99 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 22:07:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> not exactly. Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat transfer from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, so exactly what is this concern? Thanks, Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From bigredbee at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 14:08:56 2009 From: bigredbee at gmail.com (Greg Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:08:56 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: ding! ding! ding! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > not exactly. > > Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat transfer from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. > > Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Krausert" > To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have > heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, > so exactly what is this concern? > > > > Thanks, > > Cameron > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 14:10:41 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:10:41 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <014b01ca5f2d$fb5eedf0$f21cc9d0$@net> And what does our contestant win?? -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Greg Clark Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude ding! ding! ding! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > not exactly. > > Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat transfer from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. > > Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Krausert" > To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have > heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, > so exactly what is this concern? > > > > Thanks, > > Cameron > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From robert.krausert at intel.com Fri Nov 6 14:11:38 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:11:38 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADDE9@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Ray 1 Robert 0 "Join us next week when we offer Robert another chance. Topic is the chemistry of APCP." Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: Greg Clark [mailto:bigredbee at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: Krausert, Robert; rockets at rocketsnw.com; Cameron Tinder Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude ding! ding! ding! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > not exactly. > > Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat transfer from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. > > Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Krausert" > To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have > heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, > so exactly what is this concern? > > > > Thanks, > > Cameron > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From raystoner99 at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 14:12:42 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (raystoner99 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 22:12:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADDE9@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <960723955.5216361257545562334.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> OOOO....my favorite subject!!!! Bring it on! (-: Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "Greg Clark" , raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com, "Cameron Tinder" Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 2:11:38 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Ray 1 Robert 0 "Join us next week when we offer Robert another chance. Topic is the chemistry of APCP." Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: Greg Clark [mailto:bigredbee at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: Krausert, Robert; rockets at rocketsnw.com; Cameron Tinder Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude ding! ding! ding! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > not exactly. > > Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat transfer from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. > > Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Krausert" > To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have > heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, > so exactly what is this concern? > > > > Thanks, > > Cameron > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From bigredbee at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 14:12:50 2009 From: bigredbee at gmail.com (Greg Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:12:50 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <014b01ca5f2d$fb5eedf0$f21cc9d0$@net> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <014b01ca5f2d$fb5eedf0$f21cc9d0$@net> Message-ID: you get to move on to the next round! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Marty Weiser wrote: > And what does our contestant win?? > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Clark > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM > To: raystoner99 at comcast.net > Cc: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > ding! ?ding! ?ding! > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, ? wrote: >> not exactly. >> >> Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat transfer > from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you > don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. >> >> Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. >> Ray >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert Krausert" >> To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >> >> Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure > for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run > the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some > point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air > pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a > separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the > needed pressure. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder >> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >> >> Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have >> heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. > Ok, >> so exactly what is this concern? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Cameron >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > From robert.krausert at intel.com Fri Nov 6 14:59:45 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:59:45 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <960723955.5216361257545562334.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADDE9@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <960723955.5216361257545562334.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADE9A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Ok, Ray 2 Robert 0 [Leaves and decides to give The Price is Right a try.] Cheers, Robert ________________________________ From: raystoner99 at comcast.net [mailto:raystoner99 at comcast.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:13 PM To: Krausert, Robert Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com; Cameron Tinder; Greg Clark Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude OOOO....my favorite subject!!!! Bring it on! (-: Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "Greg Clark" , raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com, "Cameron Tinder" Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 2:11:38 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Ray 1 Robert 0 "Join us next week when we offer Robert another chance. Topic is the chemistry of APCP." Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: Greg Clark [mailto:bigredbee at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: Krausert, Robert; rockets at rocketsnw.com; Cameron Tinder Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude ding! ding! ding! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > not exactly. > > Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat transfer from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. > > Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Krausert" > To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have > heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, > so exactly what is this concern? > > > > Thanks, > > Cameron > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From raystoner99 at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 15:20:02 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:20:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADE9A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADDE9@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <960723955.5216361257545562334.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADE9A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <001401ca5f37$abb9c900$032d5b00$@net> I didn't say I was good at it, just that it's my favorite subject! Off to the SPARC launch now. Ray From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 3:00 PM To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com; Cameron Tinder; Greg Clark Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Ok, Ray 2 Robert 0 [Leaves and decides to give The Price is Right a try.] Cheers, Robert _____ From: raystoner99 at comcast.net [mailto:raystoner99 at comcast.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:13 PM To: Krausert, Robert Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com; Cameron Tinder; Greg Clark Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude OOOO....my favorite subject!!!! Bring it on! (-: Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "Greg Clark" , raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com, "Cameron Tinder" Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 2:11:38 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Ray 1 Robert 0 "Join us next week when we offer Robert another chance. Topic is the chemistry of APCP." Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: Greg Clark [mailto:bigredbee at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: Krausert, Robert; rockets at rocketsnw.com; Cameron Tinder Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude ding! ding! ding! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > not exactly. > > Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat transfer from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. > > Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Krausert" > To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have > heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, > so exactly what is this concern? > > > > Thanks, > > Cameron > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From vonrang at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 15:43:35 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:43:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <002901ca5f2a$e03fc060$a0bf4120$@net> Message-ID: <52308.70187.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> This episode of " The Truth or Consequences of a Lack of Available Heat & Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... ? The Extremely High Altitude Company "At EHAC We're Reaching Dizzying Heights!" ? And the American Vacuum Producers Group "When You Have Complete Vacuum, You Have Almost Nothing at All" ? Stay tuned for next week episode when our host will ask..."How much BP should I use to get this thing apart?" Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Cameron Tinder wrote: From: Cameron Tinder Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 3:48 PM Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, so exactly what is this concern? Thanks, Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 15:52:29 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:52:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <52308.70187.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <002901ca5f2a$e03fc060$a0bf4120$@net> <52308.70187.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Stay tuned for next week episode when our host will ask..."How much BP should I use to get this thing apart?" Ooo, Ooo, Ooo! 5 Grams! Chris Guenther On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Sam Grado wrote: > This episode of " The Truth or Consequences of a Lack of Available Heat & > Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... > > The Extremely High Altitude Company "At EHAC We're Reaching Dizzying > Heights!" > > And the American Vacuum Producers Group "When You Have Complete Vacuum, You > Have Almost Nothing at All" > > Stay tuned for next week episode when our host will ask..."How much BP > should I use to get this thing apart?" > > > Sam Grado > TRA L2 > > "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > sales at pvconly.com > http://www.pvconly.com > http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html > http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets > > --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Cameron Tinder wrote: > > > From: Cameron Tinder > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 3:48 PM > > > Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have > heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, > so exactly what is this concern? > > > > Thanks, > > Cameron > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 15:53:40 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:53:40 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude References: <52308.70187.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 29 grams? [buzzzzzzzz] ok, Ray 3 Robert 0 Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Grado" To: ; "Cameron Tinder" Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude This episode of " The Truth or Consequences of a Lack of Available Heat & Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... The Extremely High Altitude Company "At EHAC We're Reaching Dizzying Heights!" And the American Vacuum Producers Group "When You Have Complete Vacuum, You Have Almost Nothing at All" Stay tuned for next week episode when our host will ask..."How much BP should I use to get this thing apart?" Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Cameron Tinder wrote: From: Cameron Tinder Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 3:48 PM Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, so exactly what is this concern? Thanks, Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sealtee at cableone.net Fri Nov 6 15:58:15 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:58:15 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Message-ID: <004301ca5f3d$01a0a730$04e1f590$@net> It seems to me that unless I am planning a space shot (maybe next year) I can just "simply" increase the qty of BP to separate the nose? Hmm, I think that I indeed need to stay tuned for next weeks episode where I will find out exactly "How much BP should I use to get this thing apart!" Cameron References: <004301ca5f3d$01a0a730$04e1f590$@net> Message-ID: Whats the ID and length of the section you need to pressurize? Chris Guenther P.S. Thank you for the 54mm motor mount tube you sent. Got my NAR L2 with the bird it is in. On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: > It seems to me that unless I am planning a space shot (maybe next year) I > can just "simply" increase the qty of BP to separate the nose? > > Hmm, I think that I indeed need to stay tuned for next weeks episode where > I > will find out exactly "How much BP should I use to get this thing apart!" > > > > Cameron > > > > > > > > > > Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... > > > > Heights!" > > > > You > Have Almost Nothing at All" > > > > should I use to get this thing apart?" > > > > > <"If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From jhadv at pacifier.com Fri Nov 6 16:18:12 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (jhadv at pacifier.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:18:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP & Altitude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10947.76.115.45.22.1257553092.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Having never flown above even 15,000 feet I am no expert. However if one uses a dual based powder (not BP obviously but a complete fuel oxidizer system) I see no reason why it wouldn't work so long as it was contained in something equal to or stronger than a single wrap of paper just to get it going. I have read all the arguments listed and can't see how any of them make any sense. It is a gas generator and the gas so generated pressurizes the chamber and that expels the contents of the chamber once an end is breached. It does not need air to burn or to push against. Altitude might make a difference sizing the charge as one would have to make up for the pressure of the lost air but it should still work. But again I have never tried it. From sealtee at cableone.net Fri Nov 6 16:41:54 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:41:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: References: <004301ca5f3d$01a0a730$04e1f590$@net> Message-ID: <005101ca5f43$1ac1da80$50458f80$@net> Hey Chris, Two answers, first is just 'cause I want to know, the other has to do with my 3rd 5 inch diameter carbon fiber rocket that I have just finished designing. The central motor is a 98 mm with two outboard 75's. The thing will weigh about 25 pounds empty and 45 pounds with an M750 (I just bought an AT 98-10240 the other day on eBay! Woo hoo!) in it. The thing sims to just over 15,000 on the M750 and twice that high fully loaded. And, in case you are wondering, it is my L3 project that I hope to fly fully loaded at Balls next year after using it with a single motor for my L3. The teenager helped name the thing after we were playing with it on Rocksim the other night. He said "That's insane"! I told him "No it's my asylum" so there you go, it has a name. The answer to your question is not too easy to say. Oh yeah, I could tell you that The "Insane Asylum" is going to be 5 inches in diameter and the chamber that will contain the chutes (either 1 plus 3 or 1 plus 2, not certain yet) is 25 inches long. The wild card is the chutes and how much volume that they will take up. In addition, I have found that the chutes tend to cushion the explosion of the separation charge dramatically. So, after I ground test this silly thing and find the charge that is more than enough to "pop the top" it seems that I may need to add a fair amount more depending on the altitude or may even have to go CO2. I suppose if this was simple we would not call it "rocket science". Just FYI, the thing is only remotely based on the Estes Gemini DC, just to give you an idea of what it is to look like. I may even build a "proof of concept" rocket based on a 54mm central and 38mm outboards and call it something like "I'm not crazy everyone else is" or something along those lines. And congrats to you on a very good looking rocket with a very good flight getting you a well deserved L2! Ok, now I will shut up and just stay tuned.. Cameron From: Christopher Guenther [mailto:guentherchristopher at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:04 PM To: Cameron Tinder Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Whats the ID and length of the section you need to pressurize? Chris Guenther P.S. Thank you for the 54mm motor mount tube you sent. Got my NAR L2 with the bird it is in. On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: It seems to me that unless I am planning a space shot (maybe next year) I can just "simply" increase the qty of BP to separate the nose? Hmm, I think that I indeed need to stay tuned for next weeks episode where I will find out exactly "How much BP should I use to get this thing apart!" Cameron References: <10947.76.115.45.22.1257553092.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: Really? So I could run a fire pit or a gasoline engine in space as the chambers of the engine are sealed the combustion should work by your theory. NOT! Less pressure less O2 less burn power! LOL On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:18 PM, wrote: > Having never flown above even 15,000 feet I am no expert. However if one > uses a dual based powder (not BP obviously but a complete fuel oxidizer > system) I see no reason why it wouldn't work so long as it was contained > in something equal to or stronger than a single wrap of paper just to get > it going. I have read all the arguments listed and can't see how any of > them make any sense. It is a gas generator and the gas so generated > pressurizes the chamber and that expels the contents of the chamber once > an end is breached. It does not need air to burn or to push against. > Altitude might make a difference sizing the charge as one would have to > make up for the pressure of the lost air but it should still work. But > again I have never tried it. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 16:48:43 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:48:43 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <005101ca5f43$1ac1da80$50458f80$@net> References: <004301ca5f3d$01a0a730$04e1f590$@net> <005101ca5f43$1ac1da80$50458f80$@net> Message-ID: I would figure what the charge would be with all the laundry then double the amount for your cert flight. When you go for the fully loaded I would go for adding CO2. Chris Guenther On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: > Hey Chris, > > > > Two answers, first is just ?cause I want to know, the other has to do with > my 3rd 5 inch diameter carbon fiber rocket that I have just finished > designing. The central motor is a 98 mm with two outboard 75?s. The thing > will weigh about 25 pounds empty and 45 pounds with an M750 (I just bought > an AT 98-10240 the other day on eBay! Woo hoo!) in it. The thing sims to > just over 15,000 on the M750 and twice that high fully loaded. And, in case > you are wondering, it is my L3 project that I hope to fly fully loaded at > Balls next year after using it with a single motor for my L3. > > > > The teenager helped name the thing after we were playing with it on Rocksim > the other night. He said ?That?s insane?! I told him ?No it?s my asylum? so > there you go, it has a name. The answer to your question is not too easy to > say. Oh yeah, I could tell you that The ?Insane Asylum? is going to be 5 > inches in diameter and the chamber that will contain the chutes (either 1 > plus 3 or 1 plus 2, not certain yet) is 25 inches long. The wild card is the > chutes and how much volume that they will take up. In addition, I have found > that the chutes tend to cushion the explosion of the separation charge > dramatically. So, after I ground test this silly thing and find the charge > that is more than enough to ?pop the top? it seems that I may need to add a > fair amount more depending on the altitude or may even have to go CO2. I > suppose if this was simple we would not call it ?rocket science?. > > > > Just FYI, the thing is *only remotely based* on the Estes Gemini DC, just > to give you an idea of what it is to look like. I may even build a ?proof of > concept? rocket based on a 54mm central and 38mm outboards and call it > something like ?I?m not crazy everyone else is? or something along those > lines. > > > > And congrats to you on a very good looking rocket with a very good flight > getting you a well deserved L2! > > > > Ok, now I will shut up and just stay tuned?. > > > > Cameron > > > > *From:* Christopher Guenther [mailto:guentherchristopher at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, November 06, 2009 4:04 PM > *To:* Cameron Tinder > *Cc:* rockets at rocketsnw.com > > *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > > > Whats the ID and length of the section you need to pressurize? > > > Chris Guenther > > P.S. Thank you for the 54mm motor mount tube you sent. Got my NAR L2 with > the bird it is in. > > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Cameron Tinder > wrote: > > It seems to me that unless I am planning a space shot (maybe next year) I > can just "simply" increase the qty of BP to separate the nose? > > Hmm, I think that I indeed need to stay tuned for next weeks episode where > I > will find out exactly "How much BP should I use to get this thing apart!" > > > > Cameron > > > > > > > > > > > Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... > > > > Heights!" > > > > You > Have Almost Nothing at All" > > > > should I use to get this thing apart?" > > > > > <"If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 17:00:36 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:00:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP & Altitude In-Reply-To: References: <10947.76.115.45.22.1257553092.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <01d201ca5f45$b83f0380$28bd0a80$@net> Black powder contains the oxidizer and will burn quite well without addition oxygen from the gases surrounding the BP. In that regard it is just like our APCP propellants. The primary problem with BP at higher altitudes is that there is not enough gas present to transfer the heat from one grain to the next before the generated gas pushes the grains apart. Tightly containing the BP in surgical tubing will work and a couple of people have reported good tests at simulated altitudes of 40 - 60 kft. I contain my BP in the finger of a latex or nitrile glove and have had good luck at up to about 30 kft AGL (but will be using surgical tubing about 20 kft in the future). Estes motors are made from tightly packed BP and I imagine that would work just fine at high altitude since the heat transfer is primarily through the solid phase and not the gas phase (anyone want to install an E9 in the sustainer to ignite at >25 kft?) A smaller problem is that if the airframe is at ambient pressure then the total pressure developed by the BP charge (or a CO2 charge for that matter) will be lower than at ground level where the tests were conducted and may not be enough to open up the airframe, particularly if shear pins are used. This reduction in pressure will be about 5 psi at 27 kft and 13 psi at 50 kft. As a result the charge for higher altitude should probably be increased to compensate - i.e. if the charge predicted to give 20 psi at ground level works then use the charge for 25 psi at 27 kft. Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:43 PM To: jhadv at pacifier.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP & Altitude Really? So I could run a fire pit or a gasoline engine in space as the chambers of the engine are sealed the combustion should work by your theory. NOT! Less pressure less O2 less burn power! LOL On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:18 PM, wrote: > Having never flown above even 15,000 feet I am no expert. However if one > uses a dual based powder (not BP obviously but a complete fuel oxidizer > system) I see no reason why it wouldn't work so long as it was contained > in something equal to or stronger than a single wrap of paper just to get > it going. I have read all the arguments listed and can't see how any of > them make any sense. It is a gas generator and the gas so generated > pressurizes the chamber and that expels the contents of the chamber once > an end is breached. It does not need air to burn or to push against. > Altitude might make a difference sizing the charge as one would have to > make up for the pressure of the lost air but it should still work. But > again I have never tried it. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From deyv at europa.com Fri Nov 6 17:54:03 2009 From: deyv at europa.com (Dave Connet) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:54:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP & Altitude In-Reply-To: References: <10947.76.115.45.22.1257553092.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <4AF4D33B.4070304@europa.com> > > Really? So I could run a fire pit or a gasoline engine in space as the > chambers of the engine are sealed the combustion should work by your > theory. NOT! Less pressure less O2 less burn power! > > > LOL Just how much O_2 do you suppose is in a .45-70 black powder cartridge? They've worked fine for over a century. BP creates its own O_2 , otherwise a lot of firearms wouldn't work. From ryan98391 at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 18:25:38 2009 From: ryan98391 at gmail.com (Ryan Williams) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:25:38 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? Message-ID: What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning materials on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 18:48:43 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:48:43 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Feild clean them with non alchoholic baby wipes and dry them. then when you get home soak in viniger and wipe out and dry. good to go next launch. On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Ryan Williams wrote: > What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor casings > in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried baby wipes > to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. Why not use > a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern synthetic > propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors store and > bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it works great. I > got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a motor I had > previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of residue > without > a fuss. > > Here's my question. Does anyone know if this cleaner will harm my motor? It > seems logical to use gun cleaning materials on rocket motors, but I haven't > read about anyone else doing this. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From vonrang at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 19:01:21 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 19:01:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <971762.6843.qm@web52205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> for most flight good, effective?confinement?seems to? be?sufficient. ? 1/4" I.D. surgical tubing, Nomex wrapper, zip ties end to end and over the blanket, 3g BP?combined with?a continuity test e-match. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Christopher Guenther wrote: From: Christopher Guenther Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude To: "Cameron Tinder" Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 6:48 PM I would figure what the charge would be with all the laundry then double the amount for your cert flight.? When you go for the fully loaded I would go for adding CO2. Chris Guenther On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: >? Hey Chris, > > > > Two answers, first is just ?cause I want to know, the other has to do with > my 3rd 5 inch diameter carbon fiber rocket that I have just finished > designing. The central motor is a 98 mm with two outboard 75?s. The thing > will weigh about 25 pounds empty and 45 pounds with an M750 (I just bought > an AT 98-10240 the other day on eBay! Woo hoo!) in it. The thing sims to > just over 15,000 on the M750 and twice that high fully loaded. And, in case > you are wondering, it is my L3 project that I hope to fly fully loaded at > Balls next year after using it with a single motor for my L3. > > > > The teenager helped name the thing after we were playing with it on Rocksim > the other night. He said ?That?s insane?! I told him ?No it?s my asylum? so > there you go, it has a name. The answer to your question is not too easy to > say. Oh yeah, I could tell you that The ?Insane Asylum?? is going to be 5 > inches in diameter and the chamber that will contain the chutes (either 1 > plus 3 or 1 plus 2, not certain yet) is 25 inches long. The wild card is the > chutes and how much volume that they will take up. In addition, I have found > that the chutes tend to cushion the explosion of the separation charge > dramatically. So, after I ground test this silly thing and find the charge > that is more than enough to ?pop the top? it seems that I may need to add a > fair amount more depending on the altitude or may even have to go CO2. I > suppose if this was simple we would not call it ?rocket science?. > > > > Just FYI, the thing is *only remotely based* on the Estes Gemini DC, just > to give you an idea of what it is to look like. I may even build a ?proof of > concept? rocket based on a 54mm central and 38mm outboards and call it > something like ?I?m not crazy everyone else is? or something along those > lines. > > > > And congrats to you on a very good looking rocket with a very good flight > getting you a well deserved L2! > > > > Ok, now I will shut up and just stay tuned?. > > > > Cameron > > > > *From:* Christopher Guenther [mailto:guentherchristopher at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, November 06, 2009 4:04 PM > *To:* Cameron Tinder > *Cc:* rockets at rocketsnw.com > > *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > > > Whats the ID and length of the section you need to pressurize? > > > Chris Guenther > > P.S. Thank you for the 54mm motor mount tube you sent.? Got my NAR L2 with > the bird it is in. > > >? On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Cameron Tinder > wrote: > > It seems to me that unless I am planning a space shot (maybe next year) I > can just "simply" increase the qty of BP to separate the nose? > > Hmm, I think that I indeed need to stay tuned for next weeks episode where > I > will find out exactly "How much BP should I use to get this thing apart!" > > > > Cameron > > > > > > > > > > > Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... > > > > Heights!" > > > > You > Have Almost Nothing at All" > > > > should I use to get this thing apart?" > > > > > <"If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From seth.wallace at rocketmail.com Fri Nov 6 19:31:22 2009 From: seth.wallace at rocketmail.com (Seth Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 19:31:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <614891.4581.qm@web65311.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Hoppe's #9 works well on stubborn residue SW --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Ryan Williams wrote: From: Ryan Williams Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 6:25 PM What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it works great.? I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning materials on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 19:44:54 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 19:44:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? References: <614891.4581.qm@web65311.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ryan, I think to answer your question. The chemical (Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative) you are using is a lubricant and pretective. "Cleaner" is a solvent, but can't think of anything in that spray that would be harmful for aluminum. If it works, use it. Now lets hope I don't get buzzed. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Wallace" To: ; "Ryan Williams" Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? Hoppe's #9 works well on stubborn residue SW --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Ryan Williams wrote: From: Ryan Williams Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 6:25 PM What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning materials on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 6 19:46:23 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 19:46:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <234bcd91869553b0743249b53331112c.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> I've always used the alcohol-containing baby wipes with good effect. But those were all smaller reloads: 29, 38, 54mm. The "Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative" sounds interesting though. +McG+ > Feild clean them with non alchoholic baby wipes and dry them. then when > you > get home soak in viniger and wipe out and dry. good to go next launch. > > > > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Ryan Williams wrote: > >> What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor >> casings >> in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried baby >> wipes >> to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. Why not >> use >> a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern synthetic >> propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors store >> and >> bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it works great. >> I >> got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a motor I had >> previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of residue >> without >> a fuss. >> >> Here's my question. Does anyone know if this cleaner will harm my motor? >> It >> seems logical to use gun cleaning materials on rocket motors, but I >> haven't >> read about anyone else doing this. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From sb at berfield.com Fri Nov 6 20:21:23 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:21:23 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? Message-ID: Never heard of Break Free. I use baby wipes on site and if there is any stubborn gunk still there, I get at it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes #9). I find that unless it is a really dirty reload, as long as I put a good coating of lube on the liner, field cleaning usually gets things pretty clean. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 06:25 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning materials on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Fri Nov 6 20:30:25 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:30:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP necessary for deployment In-Reply-To: References: <004301ca5f3d$01a0a730$04e1f590$@net> <005101ca5f43$1ac1da80$50458f80$@net> Message-ID: <020601ca5f63$08596dc0$190c4940$@net> Cameron, Use a BP calculator to get a good estimate of the amount of BP needed. Then pack everything just like for the flight including any shear pines or shear tape (strongly recommended) and then ground test until you get good separation. If you are just pushing out a nose cone in front of the laundry make sure that the charge pushes out the chute as well - a nose cone may not have enough inertia to pull out the chute - been there, done that. When splitting above the fincan there is probably enough mass to pull out the chute in a rocket the size you have listed, but there may not be in a 54 mm or smaller based upon my experience. Ground testing is your friend, don't rely on the BP calcs. Using too big a charge can be bad as well - it can blow the side out the airframe or push things apart so vigorously that some part of the harness breaks. Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:49 PM To: Cameron Tinder Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude I would figure what the charge would be with all the laundry then double the amount for your cert flight. When you go for the fully loaded I would go for adding CO2. Chris Guenther On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: > Hey Chris, > > > > Two answers, first is just 'cause I want to know, the other has to do with > my 3rd 5 inch diameter carbon fiber rocket that I have just finished > designing. The central motor is a 98 mm with two outboard 75's. The thing > will weigh about 25 pounds empty and 45 pounds with an M750 (I just bought > an AT 98-10240 the other day on eBay! Woo hoo!) in it. The thing sims to > just over 15,000 on the M750 and twice that high fully loaded. And, in case > you are wondering, it is my L3 project that I hope to fly fully loaded at > Balls next year after using it with a single motor for my L3. > > > > The teenager helped name the thing after we were playing with it on Rocksim > the other night. He said "That's insane"! I told him "No it's my asylum" so > there you go, it has a name. The answer to your question is not too easy to > say. Oh yeah, I could tell you that The "Insane Asylum" is going to be 5 > inches in diameter and the chamber that will contain the chutes (either 1 > plus 3 or 1 plus 2, not certain yet) is 25 inches long. The wild card is the > chutes and how much volume that they will take up. In addition, I have found > that the chutes tend to cushion the explosion of the separation charge > dramatically. So, after I ground test this silly thing and find the charge > that is more than enough to "pop the top" it seems that I may need to add a > fair amount more depending on the altitude or may even have to go CO2. I > suppose if this was simple we would not call it "rocket science". > > > > Just FYI, the thing is *only remotely based* on the Estes Gemini DC, just > to give you an idea of what it is to look like. I may even build a "proof of > concept" rocket based on a 54mm central and 38mm outboards and call it > something like "I'm not crazy everyone else is" or something along those > lines. > > > > And congrats to you on a very good looking rocket with a very good flight > getting you a well deserved L2! > > > > Ok, now I will shut up and just stay tuned.. > > > > Cameron > > > > *From:* Christopher Guenther [mailto:guentherchristopher at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, November 06, 2009 4:04 PM > *To:* Cameron Tinder > *Cc:* rockets at rocketsnw.com > > *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > > > Whats the ID and length of the section you need to pressurize? > > > Chris Guenther > > P.S. Thank you for the 54mm motor mount tube you sent. Got my NAR L2 with > the bird it is in. > > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Cameron Tinder > wrote: > > It seems to me that unless I am planning a space shot (maybe next year) I > can just "simply" increase the qty of BP to separate the nose? > > Hmm, I think that I indeed need to stay tuned for next weeks episode where > I > will find out exactly "How much BP should I use to get this thing apart!" > > > > Cameron > > > > > > > > > > > Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... > > > > Heights!" > > > > You > Have Almost Nothing at All" > > > > should I use to get this thing apart?" > > > > > <"If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sealtee at cableone.net Fri Nov 6 21:53:19 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 21:53:19 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP necessary for deployment In-Reply-To: <020601ca5f63$08596dc0$190c4940$@net> References: <004301ca5f3d$01a0a730$04e1f590$@net> <005101ca5f43$1ac1da80$50458f80$@net> <020601ca5f63$08596dc0$190c4940$@net> Message-ID: <008301ca5f6e$9bff46c0$d3fdd440$@net> Hey Marty, I used a BP calculator with my last project. It told me that all I needed was a 5 grain (not gram) charge. Testing showed me that I needed a minimum of 20 so I settled on 35grains (about 2-1/3gm). This worked fine. I try to design it so that the laundry gets pushed out with the charge as to not have to worry about whether or not I have the inertia to pull things out. I have seen several others "almost" have enough inertia! One thing that I built into my last rocket once the separation charge began to get a little on the stiff side was I lined the CF nosecone (where the blast was occurring) with Kevlar. This seemed to work just fine. Obviously this next project is a little different as it will likely go over 12,000 feet with an M750 and twice that high if I ever do fully load it. At this point I have I have only been to about 4500 feet so there is quite the difference and quite the reason to be concerned. Anyway, there have been some great suggestions here, not the least of which is CO2, so this gives me some food for thought over the winter months! We will just have to see which way I go with this! Thank you all who have shared your thoughts, facts and opinions! Cameron -----Original Message----- From: Marty Weiser [mailto:MartyWeiser at comcast.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:30 PM To: 'Christopher Guenther'; 'Cameron Tinder' Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] BP necessary for deployment Cameron, Use a BP calculator to get a good estimate of the amount of BP needed. Then pack everything just like for the flight including any shear pines or shear tape (strongly recommended) and then ground test until you get good separation. If you are just pushing out a nose cone in front of the laundry make sure that the charge pushes out the chute as well - a nose cone may not have enough inertia to pull out the chute - been there, done that. When splitting above the fincan there is probably enough mass to pull out the chute in a rocket the size you have listed, but there may not be in a 54 mm or smaller based upon my experience. Ground testing is your friend, don't rely on the BP calcs. Using too big a charge can be bad as well - it can blow the side out the airframe or push things apart so vigorously that some part of the harness breaks. Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:49 PM To: Cameron Tinder Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude I would figure what the charge would be with all the laundry then double the amount for your cert flight. When you go for the fully loaded I would go for adding CO2. Chris Guenther On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: > Hey Chris, > > > > Two answers, first is just 'cause I want to know, the other has to do with > my 3rd 5 inch diameter carbon fiber rocket that I have just finished > designing. The central motor is a 98 mm with two outboard 75's. The thing > will weigh about 25 pounds empty and 45 pounds with an M750 (I just bought > an AT 98-10240 the other day on eBay! Woo hoo!) in it. The thing sims to > just over 15,000 on the M750 and twice that high fully loaded. And, in case > you are wondering, it is my L3 project that I hope to fly fully loaded at > Balls next year after using it with a single motor for my L3. > > > > The teenager helped name the thing after we were playing with it on Rocksim > the other night. He said "That's insane"! I told him "No it's my asylum" so > there you go, it has a name. The answer to your question is not too easy to > say. Oh yeah, I could tell you that The "Insane Asylum" is going to be 5 > inches in diameter and the chamber that will contain the chutes (either 1 > plus 3 or 1 plus 2, not certain yet) is 25 inches long. The wild card is the > chutes and how much volume that they will take up. In addition, I have found > that the chutes tend to cushion the explosion of the separation charge > dramatically. So, after I ground test this silly thing and find the charge > that is more than enough to "pop the top" it seems that I may need to add a > fair amount more depending on the altitude or may even have to go CO2. I > suppose if this was simple we would not call it "rocket science". > > > > Just FYI, the thing is *only remotely based* on the Estes Gemini DC, just > to give you an idea of what it is to look like. I may even build a "proof of > concept" rocket based on a 54mm central and 38mm outboards and call it > something like "I'm not crazy everyone else is" or something along those > lines. > > > > And congrats to you on a very good looking rocket with a very good flight > getting you a well deserved L2! > > > > Ok, now I will shut up and just stay tuned.. > > > > Cameron > > > > *From:* Christopher Guenther [mailto:guentherchristopher at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, November 06, 2009 4:04 PM > *To:* Cameron Tinder > *Cc:* rockets at rocketsnw.com > > *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > > > Whats the ID and length of the section you need to pressurize? > > > Chris Guenther > > P.S. Thank you for the 54mm motor mount tube you sent. Got my NAR L2 with > the bird it is in. > > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Cameron Tinder > wrote: > > It seems to me that unless I am planning a space shot (maybe next year) I > can just "simply" increase the qty of BP to separate the nose? > > Hmm, I think that I indeed need to stay tuned for next weeks episode where > I > will find out exactly "How much BP should I use to get this thing apart!" > > > > Cameron > > > > > > > > > > > Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... > > > > Heights!" > > > > You > Have Almost Nothing at All" > > > > should I use to get this thing apart?" > > > > > <"If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhadv at pacifier.com Fri Nov 6 23:29:12 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (jhadv at pacifier.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:29:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11891.76.115.45.22.1257578952.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> "The primary problem with BP at higher altitudes is that there is not enough gas present to transfer the heat from one grain to the next before the generated gas pushes the grains apart." Easily solved. Apart from using the combustion chamber as a container just contain the charge in dried gelatin (surgical tubing is too brisant for my particular tastes). I honestly think this is one of those things that is a lore. An old wives tale. Just like everyone assumes 4FA is the best grain size for no other reason than Aerotech used it because it would fit through the transfer hole. Personally I think someone had a failure somewhere or another and blamed it on the nasty black powder. Hogwash. It should light and generate consistent gas at any altitude. From brodwcjj at integrity.com Sat Nov 7 00:17:02 2009 From: brodwcjj at integrity.com (brodwcjj at integrity.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 02:17:02 -0600 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP & Altitude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85fb70ec9c0f95e8063a765a8aa038f3.squirrel@wm.integrity.com> I think the winners and non-winners (more so) in this game should win a free trip to: http://www.aeroconsystems.com/tips/dP_dt.htm > From: jhadv at pacifier.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP & Altitude > Having never flown above even 15,000 feet I am no expert. However if one > uses a dual based powder (not BP obviously but a complete fuel oxidizer > system) I see no reason why it wouldn't work so long as it was contained > in something equal to or stronger than a single wrap of paper just to get > it going. I have read all the arguments listed and can't see how any of > them make any sense. It is a gas generator and the gas so generated > pressurizes the chamber and that expels the contents of the chamber once > an end is breached. It does not need air to burn or to push against. > Altitude might make a difference sizing the charge as one would have to > make up for the pressure of the lost air but it should still work. But > again I have never tried it. > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sat Nov 7 02:40:40 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 02:40:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <11891.76.115.45.22.1257578952.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <11891.76.115.45.22.1257578952.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: It's happened too many times on too many flights to be so easily dismissed. And the physics behind the phenomenon is solid. Back pressure on burning grains is a well understood factor. Ignition of solid fuel motors in a vacuum has been well studied. The burning rate equations apply to pressures below atmospheric too, to a point. Propagation of the flame from particle to particle and the speed of pressure rise depend strongly on ambient pressure at the beginning. It's called energy feedback and is fundamental to the combustive properties of all solid fuels. If you want your BP charges to function reliably at high altitudes they must be in a sealed container with sufficient internal atmospheric pressure. No superstition about it. Sealed gelatin capsules should work fine. +McG+ > "The primary problem with BP at higher altitudes is that there is not > enough > gas present to transfer the heat from one grain to the next before the > generated gas pushes the grains apart." > > Easily solved. Apart from using the combustion chamber as a container > just contain the charge in dried gelatin (surgical tubing is too brisant > for my particular tastes). > > I honestly think this is one of those things that is a lore. An old wives > tale. Just like everyone assumes 4FA is the best grain size for no other > reason than Aerotech used it because it would fit through the transfer > hole. > > Personally I think someone had a failure somewhere or another and blamed > it on the nasty black powder. Hogwash. It should light and generate > consistent gas at any altitude. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From dmrandall at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 07:30:42 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 07:30:42 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: References: <11891.76.115.45.22.1257578952.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <6bc920e40911070730w2f20c424s2311f4d73d2cb271@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, sealed gelatin capsules.. I had never heard/thought of that. Can you elaborate on the solution using sealed gelatin capsules? Dave On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:40 AM, wrote: > It's happened too many times on too many flights to be so easily > dismissed. ?And the physics behind the phenomenon is solid. > > Back pressure on burning grains is a well understood factor. ?Ignition of > solid fuel motors in a vacuum has been well studied. ?The burning rate > equations apply to pressures below atmospheric too, to a point. > Propagation of the flame from particle to particle and the speed of > pressure rise depend strongly on ambient pressure at the beginning. ?It's > called energy feedback and is fundamental to the combustive properties of > all solid fuels. > > If you want your BP charges to function reliably at high altitudes they > must be in a sealed container with sufficient internal atmospheric > pressure. ?No superstition about it. ?Sealed gelatin capsules should work > fine. > > +McG+ > > >> "The primary problem with BP at higher altitudes is that there is not >> enough >> gas present to transfer the heat from one grain to the next before the >> generated gas pushes the grains apart." >> >> Easily solved. ?Apart from using the combustion chamber as a container >> just contain the charge in dried gelatin (surgical tubing is too brisant >> for my particular tastes). >> >> I honestly think this is one of those things that is a lore. An old wives >> tale. ?Just like everyone assumes 4FA is the best grain size for no other >> reason than Aerotech used it because it would fit through the transfer >> hole. >> >> Personally I think someone had a failure somewhere or another and blamed >> it on the nasty black powder. ?Hogwash. ?It should light and generate >> consistent gas at any altitude. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 08:10:40 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:10:40 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP necessary for deployment In-Reply-To: <008301ca5f6e$9bff46c0$d3fdd440$@net> References: <004301ca5f3d$01a0a730$04e1f590$@net> <005101ca5f43$1ac1da80$50458f80$@net> <020601ca5f63$08596dc0$190c4940$@net> <008301ca5f6e$9bff46c0$d3fdd440$@net> Message-ID: I think everyone here should Check Vern Knowles site for proper ejection charge increments. You can find it at http://www.vernk.com/EjectionChargeSizing.htm On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: > Hey Marty, > > I used a BP calculator with my last project. It told me that all I needed > was a 5 grain (not gram) charge. Testing showed me that I needed a minimum > of 20 so I settled on 35grains (about 2-1/3gm). This worked fine. I try to > design it so that the laundry gets pushed out with the charge as to not > have > to worry about whether or not I have the inertia to pull things out. I have > seen several others "almost" have enough inertia! One thing that I built > into my last rocket once the separation charge began to get a little on the > stiff side was I lined the CF nosecone (where the blast was occurring) with > Kevlar. This seemed to work just fine. Obviously this next project is a > little different as it will likely go over 12,000 feet with an M750 and > twice that high if I ever do fully load it. At this point I have I have > only > been to about 4500 feet so there is quite the difference and quite the > reason to be concerned. > > Anyway, there have been some great suggestions here, not the least of which > is CO2, so this gives me some food for thought over the winter months! We > will just have to see which way I go with this! > > Thank you all who have shared your thoughts, facts and opinions! > > Cameron > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marty Weiser [mailto:MartyWeiser at comcast.net] > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:30 PM > To: 'Christopher Guenther'; 'Cameron Tinder' > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] BP necessary for deployment > > Cameron, > > Use a BP calculator to get a good estimate of the amount of BP needed. > Then > pack everything just like for the flight including any shear pines or shear > tape (strongly recommended) and then ground test until you get good > separation. If you are just pushing out a nose cone in front of the > laundry > make sure that the charge pushes out the chute as well - a nose cone may > not > have enough inertia to pull out the chute - been there, done that. When > splitting above the fincan there is probably enough mass to pull out the > chute in a rocket the size you have listed, but there may not be in a 54 mm > or smaller based upon my experience. Ground testing is your friend, don't > rely on the BP calcs. Using too big a charge can be bad as well - it can > blow the side out the airframe or push things apart so vigorously that some > part of the harness breaks. > > Marty > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:49 PM > To: Cameron Tinder > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > I would figure what the charge would be with all the laundry then double > the > amount for your cert flight. When you go for the fully loaded I would go > for adding CO2. > > Chris Guenther > > > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Cameron Tinder > wrote: > > > Hey Chris, > > > > > > > > Two answers, first is just 'cause I want to know, the other has to do > with > > my 3rd 5 inch diameter carbon fiber rocket that I have just finished > > designing. The central motor is a 98 mm with two outboard 75's. The thing > > will weigh about 25 pounds empty and 45 pounds with an M750 (I just > bought > > an AT 98-10240 the other day on eBay! Woo hoo!) in it. The thing sims to > > just over 15,000 on the M750 and twice that high fully loaded. And, in > case > > you are wondering, it is my L3 project that I hope to fly fully loaded at > > Balls next year after using it with a single motor for my L3. > > > > > > > > The teenager helped name the thing after we were playing with it on > Rocksim > > the other night. He said "That's insane"! I told him "No it's my asylum" > so > > there you go, it has a name. The answer to your question is not too easy > to > > say. Oh yeah, I could tell you that The "Insane Asylum" is going to be 5 > > inches in diameter and the chamber that will contain the chutes (either 1 > > plus 3 or 1 plus 2, not certain yet) is 25 inches long. The wild card is > the > > chutes and how much volume that they will take up. In addition, I have > found > > that the chutes tend to cushion the explosion of the separation charge > > dramatically. So, after I ground test this silly thing and find the > charge > > that is more than enough to "pop the top" it seems that I may need to add > a > > fair amount more depending on the altitude or may even have to go CO2. I > > suppose if this was simple we would not call it "rocket science". > > > > > > > > Just FYI, the thing is *only remotely based* on the Estes Gemini DC, just > > to give you an idea of what it is to look like. I may even build a "proof > of > > concept" rocket based on a 54mm central and 38mm outboards and call it > > something like "I'm not crazy everyone else is" or something along those > > lines. > > > > > > > > And congrats to you on a very good looking rocket with a very good flight > > getting you a well deserved L2! > > > > > > > > Ok, now I will shut up and just stay tuned.. > > > > > > > > Cameron > > > > > > > > *From:* Christopher Guenther [mailto:guentherchristopher at gmail.com] > > *Sent:* Friday, November 06, 2009 4:04 PM > > *To:* Cameron Tinder > > *Cc:* rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > > > > > > > Whats the ID and length of the section you need to pressurize? > > > > > > Chris Guenther > > > > P.S. Thank you for the 54mm motor mount tube you sent. Got my NAR L2 > with > > the bird it is in. > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Cameron Tinder > > wrote: > > > > It seems to me that unless I am planning a space shot (maybe next year) I > > can just "simply" increase the qty of BP to separate the nose? > > > > Hmm, I think that I indeed need to stay tuned for next weeks episode > where > > I > > will find out exactly "How much BP should I use to get this thing apart!" > > > > > > > > Cameron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > & > > Oxygen" is brought to by our sponsors.... > > > > > > > > > Heights!" > > > > > > > > > You > > Have Almost Nothing at All" > > > > > > > > > should I use to get this thing apart?" > > > > > > > > > > > > <"If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From steve-c at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 7 08:22:42 2009 From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com (Steve Cutonilli) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:22:42 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree w/ Ken - the crux being initial BP containment is maintained as close to ground level conditions as possible - keep the charge centered in the airframe and thermally insulated from any cold soak even for the short flight duration. Pete is spot-on about using surgical tubing - so yeah, 50kagl or greater go Co2. BTW - I can provide actuators dimensionally equivalent to RouseTech for $45 plus shipping - materials are the same - omit knurling they drop to $40. It burns my arse that one has to buy a complete kit which makes each actuator cost $130 - you can't make them in practical onesie-twosie quantities for less, thus the motivation to do something else about it. Consider (88) available and delivery March 2010 - I will start a new dedicated order-placement thread pending interest - no money exchanged until delivery is made. I don't have samples just a solids rendering on computer to exact copy-cat detail - can you tell this has been pissing me off? Trigger will be pulled on (30) units committed - sorry to have de-railed an otherwise good, funny discussion on BP. /Steve -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:41 AM To: jhadv at pacifier.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude It's happened too many times on too many flights to be so easily dismissed. And the physics behind the phenomenon is solid. Back pressure on burning grains is a well understood factor. Ignition of solid fuel motors in a vacuum has been well studied. The burning rate equations apply to pressures below atmospheric too, to a point. Propagation of the flame from particle to particle and the speed of pressure rise depend strongly on ambient pressure at the beginning. It's called energy feedback and is fundamental to the combustive properties of all solid fuels. If you want your BP charges to function reliably at high altitudes they must be in a sealed container with sufficient internal atmospheric pressure. No superstition about it. Sealed gelatin capsules should work fine. +McG+ > "The primary problem with BP at higher altitudes is that there is not > enough > gas present to transfer the heat from one grain to the next before the > generated gas pushes the grains apart." > > Easily solved. Apart from using the combustion chamber as a container > just contain the charge in dried gelatin (surgical tubing is too brisant > for my particular tastes). > > I honestly think this is one of those things that is a lore. An old wives > tale. Just like everyone assumes 4FA is the best grain size for no other > reason than Aerotech used it because it would fit through the transfer > hole. > > Personally I think someone had a failure somewhere or another and blamed > it on the nasty black powder. Hogwash. It should light and generate > consistent gas at any altitude. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Sat Nov 7 08:39:20 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:39:20 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><014b01ca5f2d$fb5eedf0$f21cc9d0$@net> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DBFA@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30031C@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> I originally sent this yesterday, when the discussion was a little less advanced. One of these days I will learn the difference between "reply" and "reply all"...really I will! __________________________________________________________________________________________ According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even at altitude. Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of black powder increases with the degree of confinement.... Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which could lead to an airframe rupture. Someday, when I'm one of those "rich teachers" I keep reading about, I'll build something that goes high enough to have to worry about my BP not all burning... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Greg Clark Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:13 PM To: Marty Weiser Cc: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude you get to move on to the next round! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Marty Weiser wrote: > And what does our contestant win?? > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Clark > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM > To: raystoner99 at comcast.net > Cc: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > ding! ding! ding! > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: >> not exactly. >> >> Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat >> transfer > from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so > you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. >> >> Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. >> Ray >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert Krausert" >> To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> Pacific >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >> >> Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the >> pressure > for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then > you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. > Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit > high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less > to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use > CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder >> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >> >> Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I >> have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. > Ok, >> so exactly what is this concern? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Cameron >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From tfish38 at aol.com Sat Nov 7 08:59:09 2009 From: tfish38 at aol.com (tfish38 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:59:09 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30031C@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><014b01ca5f2d$fb5eedf0$f21cc9d0$@net><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DBFA@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30031C@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <8CC2DE2C219EC3A-327C-2BC79@webmail-d051.sysops.aol.com> http://wimpyrockets.com/page16.html Always ground test before use. Tony -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:39 am Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude I originally sent this yesterday, when the discussion was a little less dvanced. One of these days I will learn the difference between "reply" and reply all"...really I will! _________________________________________________________________________________________ ccording to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: according to heory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even at altitude. Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of black owder increases with the degree of confinement.... Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the confinement you roduce a more energetic deployment event which could lead to an airframe upture. Someday, when I'm one of those "rich teachers" I keep reading about, I'll build omething that goes high enough to have to worry about my BP not all burning... eter Schurke cience and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor ngraham Aerospace Sciences Academy ngraham High School 819 N 135th St. eattle, WA 98133 ----Original Message----- rom: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On ehalf Of Greg Clark ent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:13 PM o: Marty Weiser c: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com ubject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude you get to move on to the next round! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Marty Weiser wrote: And what does our contestant win?? -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Greg Clark Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM To: raystoner99 at comcast.net Cc: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude ding! ding! ding! On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: > not exactly. > > Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat > transfer from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. > > Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Krausert" > To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the > pressure for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I > have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high altitude. Ok, > so exactly what is this concern? > > > > Thanks, > > Cameron > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ______________________________________________ ockets mailing list ockets at rocketsnw.com ttp://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ ockets mailing list ockets at rocketsnw.com ttp://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From rocketsrfun at msn.com Sat Nov 7 09:39:25 2009 From: rocketsrfun at msn.com (Don Harris) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:39:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you were ever in the Military you would know the answer to this: Break Free is a lubricant that is designed to not cause the bolt on weapons to jam making them slide more efficiently. It is also great for cleaning basically anything that discharges black powder: M16's, 50 Cals, M60's, 9 mm, 45's (weapons) or your basic civilian firearm of choice. You can get it at any gun store or shooting range, or (if they carry it) outdoor store, but they may call it something else. It is every soldiers friend if he/she plans on staying alive.. Personally, (my two cents) I've used it on my motors in the past and haven't had any problems. It's not designed to break down metals. But then again, white vinegar is cheaper. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Berfield To: Ryan Williams ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? Never heard of Break Free. I use baby wipes on site and if there is any stubborn gunk still there, I get at it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes #9). I find that unless it is a really dirty reload, as long as I put a good coating of lube on the liner, field cleaning usually gets things pretty clean. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 06:25 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning materials on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 7 10:17:04 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:17:04 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Message-ID: LOL. I understand completely. Every time a supplier to Binder Design decided to change pricing terms after I have designed a kit using their parts, I clone their non-patented parts removing me from their financial support. My margins are too low to be blackmailed on price after the kit is released and needs those parts. To get this back on topic, does anybody know the maximum altitude that contained BP has worked for deployment? Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:23:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, steve-c at ix.netcom.com writes: I don't have samples just a solids rendering on computer to exact copy-cat detail - can you tell this has been pissing me off? From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 7 10:21:49 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:21:49 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude Message-ID: Well that is good to know. If I were to use a machined aluminum container with heavy burst disk, it might be good to higher altitudes? I've done that in the past, but only flew to 20K' or so. Sounds like an untapped market to me. Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:44:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, pmschurke at seattleschools.org writes: According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even at altitude. Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of black powder increases with the degree of confinement.... Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which could lead to an airframe rupture. From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 10:23:32 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 10:23:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude References: Message-ID: <2FC0E859831F4E4FB685981AF5374980@LaptopKrausert> I'm not certain. Didn't Chuck Yeager eject once at 85K? Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > LOL. I understand completely. Every time a supplier to Binder Design > decided to change pricing terms after I have designed a kit using their > parts, > I clone their non-patented parts removing me from their financial > support. > My margins are too low to be blackmailed on price after the kit is > released and needs those parts. > > To get this back on topic, does anybody know the maximum altitude that > contained BP has worked for deployment? > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:23:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > steve-c at ix.netcom.com writes: > > I don't have samples just a solids rendering on > computer to exact copy-cat detail - can you tell this has been pissing > me off? > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 10:26:21 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 10:26:21 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude References: Message-ID: <751B5C612A174C81A29EE21E99C2EB2D@LaptopKrausert> Purchase them today at Binder Design. Get the latest craze. It's called the, Ka-Boom. Order now while supplies last. Operators are standing by. Be the first one on your block to own the Ka-Boom. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude > Well that is good to know. If I were to use a machined aluminum > container > with heavy burst disk, it might be good to higher altitudes? I've done > that in the past, but only flew to 20K' or so. Sounds like an untapped > market to me. > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:44:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > pmschurke at seattleschools.org writes: > > According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: > according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even > at > altitude. > > Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of > black powder increases with the degree of confinement.... > > Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the > confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which could > lead to an > airframe rupture. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 10:34:29 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 10:34:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <751B5C612A174C81A29EE21E99C2EB2D@LaptopKrausert> References: <751B5C612A174C81A29EE21E99C2EB2D@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: Ooo, Ooo, Ooo, sign me up! If Mike has taken the time to design and test such a product and found it ready for market I do not think I would question it. Chris Guenther On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Robert Krausert wrote: > Purchase them today at Binder Design. Get the latest craze. It's called > the, Ka-Boom. Order now while supplies last. Operators are standing by. Be > the first one on your block to own the Ka-Boom. > > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: ; > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:21 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude > > > > Well that is good to know. If I were to use a machined aluminum >> container >> with heavy burst disk, it might be good to higher altitudes? I've done >> that in the past, but only flew to 20K' or so. Sounds like an untapped >> market to me. >> >> Mike F. >> >> >> In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:44:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> pmschurke at seattleschools.org writes: >> >> According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: >> according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even >> at >> altitude. >> >> Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of >> black powder increases with the degree of confinement.... >> >> Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the >> confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which could >> lead to an >> airframe rupture. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From jhadv at pacifier.com Sat Nov 7 10:44:42 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 10:44:42 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean motors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091107104325.00be06a0@mail.iinet.com> >If you were ever in the Military you would know the answer to this: When I was in it was referred to as CLP the difference being that they added teflon by then. I'm sure it's called something different today. From appusher at q.com Sat Nov 7 10:52:35 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:52:35 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike How about a BP driven piston setup that splits the airframe? Bill EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:21:49 -0500 > To: pmschurke at seattleschools.org; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude > > Well that is good to know. If I were to use a machined aluminum container > with heavy burst disk, it might be good to higher altitudes? I've done > that in the past, but only flew to 20K' or so. Sounds like an untapped > market to me. > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:44:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > pmschurke at seattleschools.org writes: > > According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: > according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even at > altitude. > > Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of > black powder increases with the degree of confinement.... > > Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the > confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which could lead to an > airframe rupture. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From jhadv at pacifier.com Sat Nov 7 10:55:06 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 10:55:06 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091107104617.00c1ff10@mail.iinet.com> >Sounds like an untapped market to me. I bet if you did a survey you would find that people like CO2 better not for reliability or efficiency reasons but primarily because BP is messy and it stinks. CO2 keeps nice rockets nicer, longer. Catchy slogan huh? As an aside why not burn a combination of CaCO3 and an oxidizer? The chalk devolves to CaO + CO2 plus the oxidizer byproduct. As I recall from the literature (I would have to check to be sure) this burns under vacuum. If my memory is failing me and it wasn't CaCO2 then it was something similar. The stuff they use for air-bag cartridges would definitely work. Small, fast, low temperature, non-toxic and high pressure. From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 7 11:00:47 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:00:47 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 20 Message-ID: Except for the actual science behind it. :) Tests have been done in vacuum chambers that showed that uncontained BP charges still had unburned grains of BP dispersed within the chamber. The confined charges burned completely. Also the finer the BP is the faster it burns which is what we want for deployment, thus the 4F rather than the coarser grades. Mike F. In a message dated 11/6/2009 11:29:47 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jhadv at pacifier.com writes: I honestly think this is one of those things that is a lore. An old wives tale. Just like everyone assumes 4FA is the best grain size for no other reason than Aerotech used it because it would fit through the transfer hole. From greg at blastzone.com Sat Nov 7 11:02:14 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 11:02:14 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091107104617.00c1ff10@mail.iinet.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091107104617.00c1ff10@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <0e5001ca5fdc$d19383f0$74ba8bd0$@com> Stinks? BP STINKS? The smell of BP is better than freshly baked bread! Better than a steak on the grill! Better than ANYTHING! WHATS WRONG WITH YOU?!?!?!?! .... Ahem, sorry, my inner pyro got out of control there for a sec... > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Bogdanich > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:55 AM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > > >Sounds like an untapped market to me. > > I bet if you did a survey you would find that people like CO2 better not > for reliability or efficiency reasons but primarily because BP is messy and > it stinks. CO2 keeps nice rockets nicer, longer. Catchy slogan huh? As > an aside why not burn a combination of CaCO3 and an oxidizer? The chalk > devolves to CaO + CO2 plus the oxidizer byproduct. As I recall from the > literature (I would have to check to be sure) this burns under vacuum. If > my memory is failing me and it wasn't CaCO2 then it was something > similar. The stuff they use for air-bag cartridges would definitely > work. Small, fast, low temperature, non-toxic and high pressure. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Sat Nov 7 11:12:01 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 11:12:01 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091107104617.00c1ff10@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30031D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> The stuff they use in airbag cartidges is sodium azide. You do NOT want to go there. On the toxicity scale, sodium azide is one step below cyanide. Nasty stuff. Stops the electron transport chain at the sub-cellular organelle level (that's something you need to survive). So why do they use it in airbag cartidges, you ask? Because they are using a very small charge, it's professionally handled, and the risk for exposure during deployment of the device is much less than the risk of damage to the person if no airbag deploys. On the other hand, handling uncontained sodium azide is a very, very large risk that you do not want to take (unless you have extensive training and a fume hood). Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Paul Bogdanich Sent: Sat 11/7/2009 10:55 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >Sounds like an untapped market to me. I bet if you did a survey you would find that people like CO2 better not for reliability or efficiency reasons but primarily because BP is messy and it stinks. CO2 keeps nice rockets nicer, longer. Catchy slogan huh? As an aside why not burn a combination of CaCO3 and an oxidizer? The chalk devolves to CaO + CO2 plus the oxidizer byproduct. As I recall from the literature (I would have to check to be sure) this burns under vacuum. If my memory is failing me and it wasn't CaCO2 then it was something similar. The stuff they use for air-bag cartridges would definitely work. Small, fast, low temperature, non-toxic and high pressure. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 7 11:35:18 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:35:18 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude Message-ID: I like BP better because the CO2 systems are bulky and heavy. I believe you might be thinking of crimson powder? IIRC, it uses vitamin C. Roy Jenkins brought this up for a different application for me last year. Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 10:55:49 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, jhadv at pacifier.com writes: I bet if you did a survey you would find that people like CO2 better not for reliability or efficiency reasons but primarily because BP is messy and it stinks. CO2 keeps nice rockets nicer, longer. Catchy slogan huh? As an aside why not burn a combination of CaCO3 and an oxidizer? The chalk devolves to CaO + CO2 plus the oxidizer byproduct. As I recall from the literature (I would have to check to be sure) this burns under vacuum. If my memory is failing me and it wasn't CaCO2 then it was something similar. The stuff they use for air-bag cartridges would definitely work. Small, fast, low temperature, non-toxic and high pressure. From bar0051 at homenetnw.net Sat Nov 7 11:52:03 2009 From: bar0051 at homenetnw.net (Bryon Schopp) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 11:52:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? References: Message-ID: <7A9D6202D14E4B8FBEA570FF50B785D7@MEDIONDeskTop> I guess I am being nit picky but, modern fireairms like the M16 do not use "Black Powder", they use "Smokless Powder" They are completely different and the recommended cleaners for them are different. That being said, I have used Break Free on my cases, but I found that a clearner made for BP seems to work better. Bryon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Harris" To: Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > If you were ever in the Military you would know the answer to this: > > Break Free is a lubricant that is designed to not cause the bolt on > weapons to jam making them slide more efficiently. It is also great for > cleaning basically anything that discharges black powder: M16's, 50 Cals, > M60's, 9 mm, 45's (weapons) or your basic civilian firearm of choice. You > can get it at any gun store or shooting range, or (if they carry it) > outdoor store, but they may call it something else. It is every soldiers > friend if he/she plans on staying alive.. > > Personally, (my two cents) I've used it on my motors in the past and > haven't had any problems. It's not designed to break down metals. But then > again, white vinegar is cheaper. > > Don > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Scott Berfield > To: Ryan Williams ; > rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > Never heard of Break Free. I use baby wipes on site and if there is any > stubborn gunk still there, I get at it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes > #9). I find that unless it is a really dirty reload, as long as I put a > good coating of lube on the liner, field cleaning usually gets things > pretty clean. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 06:25 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor > casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried > baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. > Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern > synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors > store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it > works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a > motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of > residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this > cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning materials > on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets lman/listinfo/rockets> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From vonrang at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 12:15:50 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 12:15:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <91265.76521.qm@web52209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Full brass 20?or 12ga BP shotshell cases?could?be employed for this purpose. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Mfreptiles at aol.com wrote: From: Mfreptiles at aol.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude To: pmschurke at seattleschools.org, rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 12:21 PM Well that is good to know.? If I were to use a machined? aluminum container with heavy burst disk, it might be good to higher? altitudes?? I've done that in the past, but only flew to 20K' or so.???Sounds like an untapped market to me. Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:44:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,? pmschurke at seattleschools.org writes: According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and? physics:? according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all? burn, even at altitude. Of course, the downside to that strategy is? that the explosive force of black powder increases with the degree of? confinement.... Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by? increasing the confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which? could lead to an airframe? rupture. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From rnech at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 13:58:09 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:58:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] cooling indoor ceiling lighting fixture for rocket anda space buffs Message-ID: <726515.71752.qm@web111410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Plus it glows in the dark! http://www.lampsplus.com/products/Glow-in-the-Dark-Rocket-Ship-17-inch-Wide-Ceiling-Light-Fixture__99880.html Glow-In-The-Dark Rocket Ship Wall Sconce http://www.lampsplus.com/products/Glow-In-The-Dark-Rocket-Ship-Wall-Sconce__37426.html From rocketsrfun at msn.com Sat Nov 7 14:36:29 2009 From: rocketsrfun at msn.com (Don Harris) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:36:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: <7A9D6202D14E4B8FBEA570FF50B785D7@MEDIONDeskTop> References: <7A9D6202D14E4B8FBEA570FF50B785D7@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: Just a little. Point being was removal of residue. Even smokeless powder has that problem. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryon Schopp To: Don Harris ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? I guess I am being nit picky but, modern fireairms like the M16 do not use "Black Powder", they use "Smokless Powder" They are completely different and the recommended cleaners for them are different. That being said, I have used Break Free on my cases, but I found that a clearner made for BP seems to work better. Bryon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Harris" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > If you were ever in the Military you would know the answer to this: > > Break Free is a lubricant that is designed to not cause the bolt on > weapons to jam making them slide more efficiently. It is also great for > cleaning basically anything that discharges black powder: M16's, 50 Cals, > M60's, 9 mm, 45's (weapons) or your basic civilian firearm of choice. You > can get it at any gun store or shooting range, or (if they carry it) > outdoor store, but they may call it something else. It is every soldiers > friend if he/she plans on staying alive.. > > Personally, (my two cents) I've used it on my motors in the past and > haven't had any problems. It's not designed to break down metals. But then > again, white vinegar is cheaper. > > Don > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Scott Berfield> > To: Ryan Williams> ; > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > Never heard of Break Free. I use baby wipes on site and if there is any > stubborn gunk still there, I get at it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes > #9). I find that unless it is a really dirty reload, as long as I put a > good coating of lube on the liner, field cleaning usually gets things > pretty clean. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 06:25 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com> > Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor > casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried > baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a brainstorm. > Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern > synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local outdoors > store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it > works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and cleaned a > motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal of > residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this > cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning materials > on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > lman/listinfo/rockets> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From fred at azinger.com Sat Nov 7 14:38:56 2009 From: fred at azinger.com (Fred Azinger) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:38:56 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091107104617.00c1ff10@mail.iinet.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091107104617.00c1ff10@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <008901ca5ffb$17e9f8c0$47bdea40$@com> CO2 is heavy and bulky.... OK for M powered flights, but you pay dearly in smaller rockets for the CO2 weight and wasted volume. For "smaller" rocket, a gram or two of BP is hard to beat. For anything less than 30k, I'll take BP ANY DAY -- super simple == Reliability. Plus I don't have to prep a BP charge a day in advance like I do a RouseTech CO2 due to the need to glue in the match head and fill the empty match chamber. Steve -- if you make these, make single-match versions.... It's the CO2 that fails to deploy, not the match failing to light the BP. And yes -- for those not in the know, those CO2 systems still use BP..... -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bogdanich Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:55 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >Sounds like an untapped market to me. I bet if you did a survey you would find that people like CO2 better not for reliability or efficiency reasons but primarily because BP is messy and it stinks. CO2 keeps nice rockets nicer, longer. Catchy slogan huh? As an aside why not burn a combination of CaCO3 and an oxidizer? The chalk devolves to CaO + CO2 plus the oxidizer byproduct. As I recall from the literature (I would have to check to be sure) this burns under vacuum. If my memory is failing me and it wasn't CaCO2 then it was something similar. The stuff they use for air-bag cartridges would definitely work. Small, fast, low temperature, non-toxic and high pressure. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 14:48:54 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:48:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? References: <7A9D6202D14E4B8FBEA570FF50B785D7@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: Best method. Wait until you get home. Then you have everything you need. Lay down a sheet of newspaper on the dining room table. Open the motor and push everything out onto the paper. Then use the scrubber brush from the kitchen sink to get most of the gunk out. Finish by placing the motor hardware in the dishwasher and running it on the normal cycle. Good to go and it's clean. Best done when your wife is gone. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Harris" To: Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > Just a little. Point being was removal of residue. Even smokeless powder > has that problem. > > Don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bryon Schopp > To: Don Harris ; > rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > I guess I am being nit picky but, modern fireairms like the M16 do not > use > "Black Powder", they use "Smokless Powder" They are completely different > and the recommended cleaners for them are different. That being said, I > have used Break Free on my cases, but I found that a clearner made for BP > seems to work better. > > Bryon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Harris" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > If you were ever in the Military you would know the answer to this: > > > > Break Free is a lubricant that is designed to not cause the bolt on > > weapons to jam making them slide more efficiently. It is also great for > > cleaning basically anything that discharges black powder: M16's, 50 > Cals, > > M60's, 9 mm, 45's (weapons) or your basic civilian firearm of choice. > You > > can get it at any gun store or shooting range, or (if they carry it) > > outdoor store, but they may call it something else. It is every > soldiers > > friend if he/she plans on staying alive.. > > > > Personally, (my two cents) I've used it on my motors in the past and > > haven't had any problems. It's not designed to break down metals. But > then > > again, white vinegar is cheaper. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Scott Berfield> > > To: Ryan > Williams> ; > > > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:21 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > Never heard of Break Free. I use baby wipes on site and if there is > any > > stubborn gunk still there, I get at it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes > > #9). I find that unless it is a really dirty reload, as long as I put a > > good coating of lube on the liner, field cleaning usually gets things > > pretty clean. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 06:25 PM > > To: > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor > > casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried > > baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a > brainstorm. > > Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern > > synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local > outdoors > > store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it > > works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and > cleaned a > > motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal > of > > residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this > > cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning > materials > > on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > lman/listinfo/rockets> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From rocketsrfun at msn.com Sat Nov 7 14:54:20 2009 From: rocketsrfun at msn.com (Don Harris) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:54:20 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: <7A9D6202D14E4B8FBEA570FF50B785D7@MEDIONDeskTop> References: <7A9D6202D14E4B8FBEA570FF50B785D7@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: Unless her name is "Red" then you can just forget that idea.. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Krausert To: Don Harris ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? Best method. Wait until you get home. Then you have everything you need. Lay down a sheet of newspaper on the dining room table. Open the motor and push everything out onto the paper. Then use the scrubber brush from the kitchen sink to get most of the gunk out. Finish by placing the motor hardware in the dishwasher and running it on the normal cycle. Good to go and it's clean. Best done when your wife is gone. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Harris" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > Just a little. Point being was removal of residue. Even smokeless powder > has that problem. > > Don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bryon Schopp> > To: Don Harris> ; > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > I guess I am being nit picky but, modern fireairms like the M16 do not > use > "Black Powder", they use "Smokless Powder" They are completely different > and the recommended cleaners for them are different. That being said, I > have used Break Free on my cases, but I found that a clearner made for BP > seems to work better. > > Bryon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Harris" >> > To: >> > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > If you were ever in the Military you would know the answer to this: > > > > Break Free is a lubricant that is designed to not cause the bolt on > > weapons to jam making them slide more efficiently. It is also great for > > cleaning basically anything that discharges black powder: M16's, 50 > Cals, > > M60's, 9 mm, 45's (weapons) or your basic civilian firearm of choice. > You > > can get it at any gun store or shooting range, or (if they carry it) > > outdoor store, but they may call it something else. It is every > soldiers > > friend if he/she plans on staying alive.. > > > > Personally, (my two cents) I've used it on my motors in the past and > > haven't had any problems. It's not designed to break down metals. But > then > > again, white vinegar is cheaper. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Scott Berfield>> > > To: Ryan > Williams>> ; > > > rockets at rocketsnw.com>> > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:21 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > Never heard of Break Free. I use baby wipes on site and if there is > any > > stubborn gunk still there, I get at it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes > > #9). I find that unless it is a really dirty reload, as long as I put a > > good coating of lube on the liner, field cleaning usually gets things > > pretty clean. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 06:25 PM > > To: > rockets at rocketsnw.com>> > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor > > casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried > > baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a > brainstorm. > > Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern > > synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local > outdoors > > store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it > > works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and > cleaned a > > motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal > of > > residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this > > cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning > materials > > on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com>> > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets> > > lman/listinfo/rockets> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com>> > > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From rnech at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 16:25:10 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 16:25:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <683749.41198.qm@web111410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> If you bribe her with chocolate it could happen! Robert --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Don Harris wrote: > From: Don Harris > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 2:54 PM > Unless her name is "Red" then you can > just forget that idea.. > > Don > ? ----- Original Message ----- > ? From: Robert Krausert > > ? To: Don Harris > ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > ? Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:48 PM > ? Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable > motors? > > > ? Best method. Wait until you get home. Then you have > everything you need. > > ? Lay down a sheet of newspaper on the dining room > table. Open the motor and > ? push everything out onto the paper. Then use the > scrubber brush from the > ? kitchen sink to get most of the gunk out. Finish by > placing the motor > ? hardware in the dishwasher and running it on the > normal cycle. Good to go > ? and it's clean. > > ? Best done when your wife is gone. > > ? Cheers, > ? Robert > ? ----- Original Message ----- > ? From: "Don Harris" > > ? To: > > ? Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:36 PM > ? Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable > motors? > > > ? > Just a little. Point being was removal of > residue. Even smokeless powder > ? > has that problem. > ? > > ? > Don > ? >? ----- Original Message ----- > ? >? From: Bryon Schopp> > ? >? To: Don Harris> > ; > ? > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > ? >? Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:52 > AM > ? >? Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to > clean reuseable motors? > ? > > ? > > ? >? I guess I am being nit picky but, modern > fireairms like the M16 do not > ? > use > ? >? "Black Powder", they use "Smokless > Powder"? They are completely different > ? >? and the recommended cleaners for them are > different.? That being said, I > ? >? have used Break Free on my cases, but I > found that a clearner made for BP > ? >? seems to work better. > ? > > ? >? Bryon > ? > > ? >? ----- Original Message ----- > ? >? From: "Don Harris" >> > ? >? To: >> > ? >? Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:39 > AM > ? >? Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to > clean reuseable motors? > ? > > ? > > ? >? > If you were ever in the Military you > would know the answer to this: > ? >? > > ? >? > Break Free is a lubricant that is > designed to not cause the bolt on > ? >? > weapons to jam making them slide > more efficiently. It is also great for > ? >? > cleaning basically anything that > discharges black powder: M16's, 50 > ? > Cals, > ? >? > M60's, 9 mm, 45's (weapons) or your > basic civilian firearm of choice. > ? > You > ? >? > can get it at any gun store or > shooting range, or (if they carry it) > ? >? > outdoor store, but they may call it > something else. It is every > ? > soldiers > ? >? > friend if he/she plans on staying > alive.. > ? >? > > ? >? > Personally, (my two cents) I've used > it on my motors in the past and > ? >? > haven't had any problems. It's not > designed to break down metals. But > ? > then > ? >? > again, white vinegar is cheaper. > ? >? > > ? >? > Don > ? >? > > ? >? > > ? >? > > ? >? > > ? >? >? ----- Original Message ----- > ? >? >? From: Scott > Berfield>> > ? >? >? To: Ryan > ? > Williams>> > ; > ? >? > > ? > rockets at rocketsnw.com>> > ? >? >? Sent: Friday, November 06, > 2009 8:21 PM > ? >? >? Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best > way to clean reuseable motors? > ? >? > > ? >? > > ? >? >? Never heard of Break Free. I > use baby wipes on site and if there is > ? > any > ? >? > stubborn gunk still there, I get at > it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes > ? >? > #9). I find that unless it is a > really dirty reload, as long as I put a > ? >? > good coating of lube on the liner, > field cleaning usually gets things > ? >? > pretty clean. > ? >? >? -----Original Message----- > ? >? >? From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] > ? >? >? Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 > 06:25 PM > ? >? >? To: > ? > rockets at rocketsnw.com>> > ? >? >? Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way > to clean reuseable motors? > ? >? > > ? >? >? What have people found to be > the best way of cleaning rocket motor > ? >? > casings in the field without an > abundant supply of clean water? I tried > ? >? > baby wipes to some degree of success > and vinegar. Then I had a > ? > brainstorm. > ? >? > Why not use a cleaning solution > designed specifically to remove modern > ? >? > synthetic propellants as well as > black powder. I went to my local > ? > outdoors > ? >? > store and bought Break Free Cleaner > Lubricant and Preservative and it > ? >? > works great. I got a pack of cotton > swabs from the drugstore and > ? > cleaned a > ? >? > motor I had previously "cleaned" in > the field. I removed a great deal > ? > of > ? >? > residue without a fuss. Here's my > question. Does anyone know if this > ? >? > cleaner will harm my motor? It seems > logical to use gun cleaning > ? > materials > ? >? > on rocket motors, but I haven't read > about anyone else doing this. > ? >? > > _______________________________________________ Rockets > mailing list > ? >? > > ? > Rockets at rocketsnw.com>> > ? >? > > ? > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets> > ? >? > lman/listinfo/rockets> > ? >? >? > _______________________________________________ > ? >? >? Rockets mailing list > ? >? > > ? > Rockets at rocketsnw.com>> > ? >? > > ? >? > > ? > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets>> > ? >? > > ? >? > > _______________________________________________ > ? >? > Rockets mailing list > ? >? > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > ? >? > > ? > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets> > ? >? > > ? >? > > ? > > ? > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > ? > Rockets mailing list > ? > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > ? > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > From steve-c at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 7 16:35:28 2009 From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com (Steve Cutonilli) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 16:35:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <008901ca5ffb$17e9f8c0$47bdea40$@com> Message-ID: Fred - I experienced a failure to deploy using Co2 once out of perhaps two dozen events I have tried it - I used a single ematch on a single actuator. Had I used dual ematches, which is another configuration typically employed, me thinks it would NOT have helped the suspect failure mode - sticky piston due to dirty bore. BP volume is fixed whether single or dual ematches are used - your request will certainly be considered. I agree whole-heartedly w/ choosing BP only for flights below a certain altitude - my threshold is 25K when the option presents itself to use either method. BTW - I appreciate the positive off-list response so far - too bandwidth challenged to answer folks promptly - the rocketry off-season is my opportunity to make head-way on the EV motorcycle conversion, but yeah, the actuators will be made by a friend that runs a job shop and production will be limited to (1) run. /Steve -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Fred Azinger Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:39 PM To: 'Paul Bogdanich'; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude CO2 is heavy and bulky.... OK for M powered flights, but you pay dearly in smaller rockets for the CO2 weight and wasted volume. For "smaller" rocket, a gram or two of BP is hard to beat. For anything less than 30k, I'll take BP ANY DAY -- super simple == Reliability. Plus I don't have to prep a BP charge a day in advance like I do a RouseTech CO2 due to the need to glue in the match head and fill the empty match chamber. Steve -- if you make these, make single-match versions.... It's the CO2 that fails to deploy, not the match failing to light the BP. And yes -- for those not in the know, those CO2 systems still use BP..... -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bogdanich Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:55 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >Sounds like an untapped market to me. I bet if you did a survey you would find that people like CO2 better not for reliability or efficiency reasons but primarily because BP is messy and it stinks. CO2 keeps nice rockets nicer, longer. Catchy slogan huh? As an aside why not burn a combination of CaCO3 and an oxidizer? The chalk devolves to CaO + CO2 plus the oxidizer byproduct. As I recall from the literature (I would have to check to be sure) this burns under vacuum. If my memory is failing me and it wasn't CaCO2 then it was something similar. The stuff they use for air-bag cartridges would definitely work. Small, fast, low temperature, non-toxic and high pressure. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From appusher at q.com Sat Nov 7 17:19:38 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:19:38 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: References: <7A9D6202D14E4B8FBEA570FF50B785D7@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: Seems Robert is tongue-in-cheek again with the dishwasher. Automatic dishwasher deterdent will eat your aluminium. But YMMV EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com > To: rocketsrfun at msn.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:48:54 -0800 > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > Best method. Wait until you get home. Then you have everything you need. > > Lay down a sheet of newspaper on the dining room table. Open the motor and > push everything out onto the paper. Then use the scrubber brush from the > kitchen sink to get most of the gunk out. Finish by placing the motor > hardware in the dishwasher and running it on the normal cycle. Good to go > and it's clean. > > Best done when your wife is gone. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Harris" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > Just a little. Point being was removal of residue. Even smokeless powder > > has that problem. > > > > Don > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bryon Schopp > > To: Don Harris ; > > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > I guess I am being nit picky but, modern fireairms like the M16 do not > > use > > "Black Powder", they use "Smokless Powder" They are completely different > > and the recommended cleaners for them are different. That being said, I > > have used Break Free on my cases, but I found that a clearner made for BP > > seems to work better. > > > > Bryon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don Harris" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:39 AM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > > If you were ever in the Military you would know the answer to this: > > > > > > Break Free is a lubricant that is designed to not cause the bolt on > > > weapons to jam making them slide more efficiently. It is also great for > > > cleaning basically anything that discharges black powder: M16's, 50 > > Cals, > > > M60's, 9 mm, 45's (weapons) or your basic civilian firearm of choice. > > You > > > can get it at any gun store or shooting range, or (if they carry it) > > > outdoor store, but they may call it something else. It is every > > soldiers > > > friend if he/she plans on staying alive.. > > > > > > Personally, (my two cents) I've used it on my motors in the past and > > > haven't had any problems. It's not designed to break down metals. But > > then > > > again, white vinegar is cheaper. > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Scott Berfield> > > > To: Ryan > > Williams> ; > > > > > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:21 PM > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > > > > Never heard of Break Free. I use baby wipes on site and if there is > > any > > > stubborn gunk still there, I get at it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes > > > #9). I find that unless it is a really dirty reload, as long as I put a > > > good coating of lube on the liner, field cleaning usually gets things > > > pretty clean. > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] > > > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 06:25 PM > > > To: > > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor > > > casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried > > > baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a > > brainstorm. > > > Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern > > > synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local > > outdoors > > > store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it > > > works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and > > cleaned a > > > motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal > > of > > > residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this > > > cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning > > materials > > > on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. > > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list > > > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > lman/listinfo/rockets> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > > > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 17:31:25 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:31:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? Message-ID: Has anyone had any experience with the Hot Wire ejection canisters that you can get from Newtons 3rd Rocketry ? I tested one with no BP on an Estes system. It worked buy showing continuity and when I pressed the launch button I saw a small, fast flash with no sound or smell. If you have used them before I would like to know so I can make my decision on how to set up my ebay before I try to use my first dual deployment altimeter. From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sat Nov 7 18:58:55 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:58:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46add007b14e10275281b6acf7d8b877.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> And that's another point I missed. Burning rate of solid propellants depends on temperature of the propellant. One more thing that can slow down the rate of pressure rise. +McG+ > I agree w/ Ken - the crux being initial BP containment is maintained as > close to ground level conditions as possible - keep the charge centered > in the airframe and thermally insulated from any cold soak even for the > short flight duration. > > Pete is spot-on about using surgical tubing - so yeah, 50kagl or greater > go Co2. > > BTW - I can provide actuators dimensionally equivalent to RouseTech for > $45 plus shipping - materials are the same - omit knurling they drop to > $40. > > It burns my arse that one has to buy a complete kit which makes each > actuator cost $130 - you can't make them in practical onesie-twosie > quantities for less, thus the motivation to do something else about it. > > Consider (88) available and delivery March 2010 - I will start a new > dedicated order-placement thread pending interest - no money exchanged > until delivery is made. I don't have samples just a solids rendering on > computer to exact copy-cat detail - can you tell this has been pissing > me off? > > Trigger will be pulled on (30) units committed - sorry to have de-railed > an otherwise good, funny discussion on BP. > > /Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of > kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:41 AM > To: jhadv at pacifier.com > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > It's happened too many times on too many flights to be so easily > dismissed. And the physics behind the phenomenon is solid. > > Back pressure on burning grains is a well understood factor. Ignition > of > solid fuel motors in a vacuum has been well studied. The burning rate > equations apply to pressures below atmospheric too, to a point. > Propagation of the flame from particle to particle and the speed of > pressure rise depend strongly on ambient pressure at the beginning. > It's > called energy feedback and is fundamental to the combustive properties > of > all solid fuels. > > If you want your BP charges to function reliably at high altitudes they > must be in a sealed container with sufficient internal atmospheric > pressure. No superstition about it. Sealed gelatin capsules should > work > fine. > > +McG+ > > >> "The primary problem with BP at higher altitudes is that there is not >> enough >> gas present to transfer the heat from one grain to the next before the >> generated gas pushes the grains apart." >> >> Easily solved. Apart from using the combustion chamber as a container >> just contain the charge in dried gelatin (surgical tubing is too > brisant >> for my particular tastes). >> >> I honestly think this is one of those things that is a lore. An old > wives >> tale. Just like everyone assumes 4FA is the best grain size for no > other >> reason than Aerotech used it because it would fit through the transfer >> hole. >> >> Personally I think someone had a failure somewhere or another and > blamed >> it on the nasty black powder. Hogwash. It should light and generate >> consistent gas at any altitude. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sat Nov 7 19:19:25 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 19:19:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30031C@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E43FADD9C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><268131157.5214361257545260122.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><014b01ca5f2d$fb5eedf0$f21cc9d0$@net> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DBFA@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30031C@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: > According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: > according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even > at altitude. True, once it is self-sustaining burn. In this thread I've focused on the potential for failed ignition and slow pressure rise. Of course it all gets far more complicated than the simple scenarios we've been discussing here. For example, a properly designed ematch should ignite and burn even in a hard vacuum, although perhaps a bit less robustly than in standard atmosphere. If in so doing it maintains a sufficiently hot and pressurized environment around the BP particles near it, the BP will go into self-sustaining burn even if the closed and reasonably small container was initially vacuum. Details, details. It *is* possible to make a rod of certain compositions which 'burn' as a moving reaction zone that never generates any gas at all. Intermetallic alloying reactions are the usual method here. These can actually 'burn' better in a vacuum than in atmosphere because of reduced heat loss! But a true gasless delay train like this is expensive and difficult to make--a tiny bit of trapped air and instead of a traveling smolder you get a bang. +McG+ > Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of > black powder increases with the degree of confinement.... > > Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the > confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which could lead > to an airframe rupture. > > Someday, when I'm one of those "rich teachers" I keep reading about, I'll > build something that goes high enough to have to worry about my BP not all > burning... > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St. > Seattle, WA 98133 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Clark > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:13 PM > To: Marty Weiser > Cc: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude > > you get to move on to the next round! > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Marty Weiser > wrote: >> And what does our contestant win?? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark >> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:09 PM >> To: raystoner99 at comcast.net >> Cc: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >> >> ding! ding! ding! >> >> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: >>> not exactly. >>> >>> Lack of density of the air at high altitudes reduces the heat >>> transfer >> from one particle of BP to another. You don't burn all of the BP, so >> you don't develop the amount of pressure you expected to. >>> >>> Think of a vacuum bottle, its a good insulator. >>> Ray >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Robert Krausert" >>> To: "Cameron Tinder" , rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 1:55:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>> Pacific >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >>> >>> Lack or density of air molecules at high altitudes reduces the >>> pressure >> for the charge to push against. You can seal the airframe, but then >> you run the risk of the exponent of PSI exterior versus PSI internal. >> Which at some point could cause a breach. If you not seal, and hit >> high altitudes, the air pressure is reduced, Thus BP charge has less >> to push upon to get a separation or laundry out. That's why many use >> CO2 tanks to release the needed pressure. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Robert >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder >>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:48 PM >>> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude >>> >>> Ok, please pardon my ignorance (I have and abundant supply if it), I >>> have heard for some time that there is a concern about BP and high >>> altitude. >> Ok, >>> so exactly what is this concern? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Cameron >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 7 19:20:13 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:20:13 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? Message-ID: That flash you saw was the nichrome wire burning through. Certainly enough heat output to ignite BP, but it has to be in intimate contact with the molten wire. Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 5:32:15 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: It worked buy showing continuity and when I pressed the launch button I saw a small, fast flash with no sound or smell. From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sat Nov 7 19:31:46 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 19:31:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP and altitude In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911070730w2f20c424s2311f4d73d2cb271@mail.gmail.com> References: <11891.76.115.45.22.1257578952.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> <6bc920e40911070730w2f20c424s2311f4d73d2cb271@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c6b50a576b887df7de95884c25efc89.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> The tricky part is getting the gelatin capsules without people(read, cops) thinking you're running a drug lab. :( Gelatin pill capsules have actually been used for casings for tiny home made bottle rockets. Saw that in an issue of AFN years ago. Totally and rapidly biodegradable fireworks casings! I never made those or used the capsules for ejection charges. They only go so big--I'm guessing maybe veterinary supply places carry "horse pill" sizes. But I can see how it might work where only a little BP is needed. Being gelatin, the halves glue together with just a trace of water. The original poster will have to supply details. I dunno. +McG+ > Hmm, sealed gelatin capsules.. I had never heard/thought of that. > > Can you elaborate on the solution using sealed gelatin capsules? > > Dave > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:40 AM, wrote: >> It's happened too many times on too many flights to be so easily >> dismissed. ?And the physics behind the phenomenon is solid. >> >> Back pressure on burning grains is a well understood factor. ?Ignition >> of >> solid fuel motors in a vacuum has been well studied. ?The burning rate >> equations apply to pressures below atmospheric too, to a point. >> Propagation of the flame from particle to particle and the speed of >> pressure rise depend strongly on ambient pressure at the beginning. >> ?It's >> called energy feedback and is fundamental to the combustive properties >> of >> all solid fuels. >> >> If you want your BP charges to function reliably at high altitudes they >> must be in a sealed container with sufficient internal atmospheric >> pressure. ?No superstition about it. ?Sealed gelatin capsules should >> work >> fine. >> >> +McG+ >> >> >>> "The primary problem with BP at higher altitudes is that there is not >>> enough >>> gas present to transfer the heat from one grain to the next before the >>> generated gas pushes the grains apart." >>> >>> Easily solved. ?Apart from using the combustion chamber as a container >>> just contain the charge in dried gelatin (surgical tubing is too >>> brisant >>> for my particular tastes). >>> >>> I honestly think this is one of those things that is a lore. An old >>> wives >>> tale. ?Just like everyone assumes 4FA is the best grain size for no >>> other >>> reason than Aerotech used it because it would fit through the transfer >>> hole. >>> >>> Personally I think someone had a failure somewhere or another and >>> blamed >>> it on the nasty black powder. ?Hogwash. ?It should light and generate >>> consistent gas at any altitude. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > > -- > - Dave > From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Sat Nov 7 19:55:25 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 19:55:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun Message-ID: <00f901ca6027$4e277440$ea765cc0$@net> We held SPARC's last scheduled launch of the year today under reasonable conditions. Joe Cooney was our launch director. One of Joe's favorite holidays is Halloween and he was very happy to have signed up lead the launch on Halloween. Unfortunately, some things came up and the launch had to be postponed until Nov. 7. When I heard about this I hunted down Joe's long lost evil twin brother Jack O'Cooney and talked him into coming to our launch to try to make Joe feel better. Jack and Joe finally met this afternoon and I have posted three pictures to the NW Rocketry Image Gallery. http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_and_Joe.jpg http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_on_the_pad.jpg http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_in_flight.jpg The fight was good, but could have used an even shorter delay that the XS that I used in the I284. He broke a leg during landing which is what I was afraid might happen - easily repaired. I had a great time building Jack and most days was wondering if it was legal to have that much fun. Marty From sealtee at cableone.net Sat Nov 7 20:01:53 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:01:53 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters Message-ID: <004d01ca6028$3574b600$a05e2200$@net> Hey Chris I came across these when I was looking for some sort of igniter for my Tender Descender (The Tender Descender is a Main parachute release device for doing dual deployment from a single compartment) that my MAWD's would fire. I bought two of these MAWD's only to find that there are an awful lot of e-matches that the MAWD would not fire! These so called "Hot Wires" from Newton's 3rd work well. I have tested dozens of these with only one failure that was probably my fault when I mashed it into an early prototype and probably broke the bridge wire. They, without pyrogen, go off with quite a fair flash from the MAWD. I do however, now dip mine in BP flour mixed in an acetone/ping pong ball solution after a test with a very small Red Dot charge that failed to ignite. I have tested and used several dozen of these Hot Wire igniters in their "e-cans" ( http://www.newtons3rdrocketry.com/shop/index.php?cPath=25 ) for ejecting the nosecone off the ICU. I use BP flour around the wired PCB and fill the remainder with 3f. Never have I had a failure. I did however have Mike at Newton's 3rd make me a batch of dual e-cans where he put two wired PCB's in the same canister. The reason for this is redundancy without the fear that I might have a double charge go off. I found that the small e-cans would hold about 1-3/4 grams BP, the larger ones better than 5 grams. There are surely less expensive ways to "pop the top" off of your rocket, but these are well made and if you like convenience, these are a nice way to go. A side note here. I have had several people want to know how I did my "Delayed Dual Deployment" on my L2 cert flight of the modified Jayhawk I call the ICU. Well the long and the short of it is I made a device similar in function to the "Tether" device (that you can no longer purchase) but simpler, stronger and not having any parts that need replacing after 4 or 5 uses. Several people have told me that I should market this device. I have decided to do just that. For a short time I am selling these "Tender Descenders" on e-bay, at some point I will have them sold exclusively through a few dealers. Here is a link to my second eBay ad: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=130342599640&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT Sorry if I sound like a salesman, but I do want you all to know about this. Regards, Cameron Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:31:25 -0800 From: Christopher Guenther To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Has anyone had any experience with the Hot Wire ejection canisters that you can get from Newtons 3rd Rocketry ? I tested one with no BP on an Estes system. It worked buy showing continuity and when I pressed the launch button I saw a small, fast flash with no sound or smell. If you have used them before I would like to know so I can make my decision on how to set up my ebay before I try to use my first dual deployment altimeter. From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Sat Nov 7 20:28:35 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:28:35 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters References: <004d01ca6028$3574b600$a05e2200$@net> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30031F@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> My only issue with the HotWire ejection canisters--and it's a minor one--has been that the manufacturer strips off too much lead wire: almost an inch. We ground tested or flew eight HotWires at the October Mansfield Launch and seven of them fired without problem...the eighth was operator error. One of my students did not trim down the leads or insulate them when he installed his apogee charge on his ill-fated L2 attempt. Only about 1/4 inch went into the terminal blocks on his e-bay, and he had nearly 3/4" on each of the leads just hanging in the breeze. Long story short, they touched and shorted, leaving him with continuity, but no deploy at apogee. His main deploy (at ludricrous speed) tore a 15" zipper in his fiberglass reinforced airframe and he sheared a fin clean off when his shock cord wrapped around it and then jerked tight. The moral of the story is: If you know enough about electricity to trim or shield the leads so that there's no exposed wire, they seem to work just fine. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Cameron Tinder Sent: Sat 11/7/2009 8:01 PM To: 'Christopher Guenther' Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters Hey Chris I came across these when I was looking for some sort of igniter for my Tender Descender (The Tender Descender is a Main parachute release device for doing dual deployment from a single compartment) that my MAWD's would fire. I bought two of these MAWD's only to find that there are an awful lot of e-matches that the MAWD would not fire! These so called "Hot Wires" from Newton's 3rd work well. I have tested dozens of these with only one failure that was probably my fault when I mashed it into an early prototype and probably broke the bridge wire. They, without pyrogen, go off with quite a fair flash from the MAWD. I do however, now dip mine in BP flour mixed in an acetone/ping pong ball solution after a test with a very small Red Dot charge that failed to ignite. I have tested and used several dozen of these Hot Wire igniters in their "e-cans" ( http://www.newtons3rdrocketry.com/shop/index.php?cPath=25 ) for ejecting the nosecone off the ICU. I use BP flour around the wired PCB and fill the remainder with 3f. Never have I had a failure. I did however have Mike at Newton's 3rd make me a batch of dual e-cans where he put two wired PCB's in the same canister. The reason for this is redundancy without the fear that I might have a double charge go off. I found that the small e-cans would hold about 1-3/4 grams BP, the larger ones better than 5 grams. There are surely less expensive ways to "pop the top" off of your rocket, but these are well made and if you like convenience, these are a nice way to go. A side note here. I have had several people want to know how I did my "Delayed Dual Deployment" on my L2 cert flight of the modified Jayhawk I call the ICU. Well the long and the short of it is I made a device similar in function to the "Tether" device (that you can no longer purchase) but simpler, stronger and not having any parts that need replacing after 4 or 5 uses. Several people have told me that I should market this device. I have decided to do just that. For a short time I am selling these "Tender Descenders" on e-bay, at some point I will have them sold exclusively through a few dealers. Here is a link to my second eBay ad: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=130342599640&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT Sorry if I sound like a salesman, but I do want you all to know about this. Regards, Cameron Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:31:25 -0800 From: Christopher Guenther To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Has anyone had any experience with the Hot Wire ejection canisters that you can get from Newtons 3rd Rocketry ? I tested one with no BP on an Estes system. It worked buy showing continuity and when I pressed the launch button I saw a small, fast flash with no sound or smell. If you have used them before I would like to know so I can make my decision on how to set up my ebay before I try to use my first dual deployment altimeter. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhornsby3 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 20:33:15 2009 From: jhornsby3 at yahoo.com (John Hornsby) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:33:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90853.39923.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I had some of these and they sat in my field box for a few years. Had someone with a TARC team that needed something that used pyrodex and so we tried them. The worked very well with the Perfectflite MAWD and pyrodex when compacted real good. Worked good with the BP and the same mawd. Never used them in a rocket tho but they tested fine on the ground. Personaly I liked the BP and the Pakastani Pink ematches over anything on the market. And yes I am biased. :o) John "The Lurker"?Hornsby ________________________________ From: "Mfreptiles at aol.com" To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 7:20:13 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? That flash you saw was the nichrome wire burning through.? Certainly? enough heat output to ignite BP, but it has to be in intimate contact with the? molten wire. Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 5:32:15 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,? guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: It? worked buy showing continuity and when I pressed the launch button I saw a? small, fast flash with no sound or smell.? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhornsby3 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 20:37:58 2009 From: jhornsby3 at yahoo.com (John Hornsby) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:37:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? In-Reply-To: References: <7A9D6202D14E4B8FBEA570FF50B785D7@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: <659211.12865.qm@web110214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> But you can use the dishwasher to clean the remaining grease off the cases and make them shine real good. I just cleaned them in a pickel bath and then used the dishwasher to clean the rest of the residue off the cases. But for some reason April wouldn't let me use it after the second or third year into the hobby. I was able to sneak them in when she went to the store sometimes. :o) John "The other John H" Hornsby ________________________________ From: Bill Munds To: Robert Krausert ; Don Harris ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 5:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? Seems Robert is tongue-in-cheek again with the dishwasher.? Automatic dishwasher deterdent will eat your aluminium. But YMMV EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com > To: rocketsrfun at msn.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:48:54 -0800 > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > Best method. Wait until you get home. Then you have everything you need. > > Lay down a sheet of newspaper on the dining room table. Open the motor and > push everything out onto the paper. Then use the scrubber brush from the > kitchen sink to get most of the gunk out. Finish by placing the motor > hardware in the dishwasher and running it on the normal cycle. Good to go > and it's clean. > > Best done when your wife is gone. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Harris" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > Just a little. Point being was removal of residue. Even smokeless powder > > has that problem. > > > > Don > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bryon Schopp > > To: Don Harris ; > > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > I guess I am being nit picky but, modern fireairms like the M16 do not > > use > > "Black Powder", they use "Smokless Powder" They are completely different > > and the recommended cleaners for them are different. That being said, I > > have used Break Free on my cases, but I found that a clearner made for BP > > seems to work better. > > > > Bryon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don Harris" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:39 AM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > > If you were ever in the Military you would know the answer to this: > > > > > > Break Free is a lubricant that is designed to not cause the bolt on > > > weapons to jam making them slide more efficiently. It is also great for > > > cleaning basically anything that discharges black powder: M16's, 50 > > Cals, > > > M60's, 9 mm, 45's (weapons) or your basic civilian firearm of choice. > > You > > > can get it at any gun store or shooting range, or (if they carry it) > > > outdoor store, but they may call it something else. It is every > > soldiers > > > friend if he/she plans on staying alive.. > > > > > > Personally, (my two cents) I've used it on my motors in the past and > > > haven't had any problems. It's not designed to break down metals. But > > then > > > again, white vinegar is cheaper. > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Scott Berfield> > > > To: Ryan > > Williams> ; > > > > > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:21 PM > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > > > > Never heard of Break Free. I use baby wipes on site and if there is > > any > > > stubborn gunk still there, I get at it at home with gun solvent (Hoppes > > > #9). I find that unless it is a really dirty reload, as long as I put a > > > good coating of lube on the liner, field cleaning usually gets things > > > pretty clean. > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ryan Williams [mailto:ryan98391 at gmail.com] > > > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2009 06:25 PM > > > To: > > rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to clean reuseable motors? > > > > > > What have people found to be the best way of cleaning rocket motor > > > casings in the field without an abundant supply of clean water? I tried > > > baby wipes to some degree of success and vinegar. Then I had a > > brainstorm. > > > Why not use a cleaning solution designed specifically to remove modern > > > synthetic propellants as well as black powder. I went to my local > > outdoors > > > store and bought Break Free Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative and it > > > works great. I got a pack of cotton swabs from the drugstore and > > cleaned a > > > motor I had previously "cleaned" in the field. I removed a great deal > > of > > > residue without a fuss. Here's my question. Does anyone know if this > > > cleaner will harm my motor? It seems logical to use gun cleaning > > materials > > > on rocket motors, but I haven't read about anyone else doing this. > > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list > > > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > lman/listinfo/rockets> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > > > > > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 21:25:52 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 21:25:52 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? References: <90853.39923.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Chris, One crude way to test your new altimeter is through the use of Christmas mini lights. Standard hook up they should light for testing a simulated flight. Not sure how to simulate a flight with that unit. But if you can break the glass off you now have a very low voltage burn point. I can't say all, but many units will burn the element of a Christmas light exposed to the air. I'd never trust in a flight, but might be a way to test it. As for hot wire. Never used it. I have a ematch supplier that has never yet failed me. Thin chips, my coating preference, wire length and consistent ohm values. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hornsby" To: Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? I had some of these and they sat in my field box for a few years. Had someone with a TARC team that needed something that used pyrodex and so we tried them. The worked very well with the Perfectflite MAWD and pyrodex when compacted real good. Worked good with the BP and the same mawd. Never used them in a rocket tho but they tested fine on the ground. Personaly I liked the BP and the Pakastani Pink ematches over anything on the market. And yes I am biased. :o) John "The Lurker" Hornsby ________________________________ From: "Mfreptiles at aol.com" To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 7:20:13 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Hot Wire ejection canisters? That flash you saw was the nichrome wire burning through. Certainly enough heat output to ignite BP, but it has to be in intimate contact with the molten wire. Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 5:32:15 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: It worked buy showing continuity and when I pressed the launch button I saw a small, fast flash with no sound or smell. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhadv at pacifier.com Sun Nov 8 08:12:45 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:12:45 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] BP & Altitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091108081118.00bdabd8@mail.iinet.com> >But a true gasless delay train like this is expensive and difficult to >make--a tiny bit of trapped air and instead of a traveling smolder you get >a bang. BaCrO4 + B only devolves 1.3 ml of gas per gram of composition with no binder so it's close to gasless but not quite. From angelawr at wrightholdings.com Sun Nov 8 09:32:16 2009 From: angelawr at wrightholdings.com (Angela "Red" Wright) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:32:16 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] [personal] I guess I'm not the only one... In-Reply-To: References: <000a01ca59a3$7c9855e0$75c901a0$@com> Message-ID: <8D6D2A99EE7C834089CC7FB702E34716041C23@BL2PRD0102MB018.prod.exchangelabs.com> I think it's a real shame that NASA is going to be grounded on certain aspects. Think about the amazing things that Space Exploration has taught each of us, all of us. It's a fascinating thing that man has been able to do what he had done in space, around space, with space. The things we have seen, been taught, and use today from the things NASA has researched and taught us. It's a shame this country spends money on useless things, wastes money left and right, and yet a program like NASA will be pulled back. We need our kids to be scientists, and leaders, and moon walkers. NOT liberal arts majors. (no offense I love all you guys, I'm just saying) Angela Dinese Wright -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 3:22 PM To: Daron Johnson Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] [personal] I guess I'm not the only one... With $445 million dollars I bet the guys with Space Ship One could get to the moon and back 445 time! I think it is time we kick NASA aside and get some fresh blood flowing in the American Space Program! On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Daron Johnson wrote: > I love this part > "The $445 million flight test was the first step in NASA's effort to return > astronauts to the moon. The White House may change direction, however, and > scrap the Ares I in favor of other rockets and destinations." > > Typical Gov't. > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Scott Berfield > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 1:45 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [personal] [RocketsNW] I guess I'm not the only one... > > To have the occasional deployment problem: > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091030/ap_on_sc/us_sci_moon_rocket_test_4 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Simpsonclark at aol.com Sun Nov 8 09:42:09 2009 From: Simpsonclark at aol.com (Simpsonclark at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:42:09 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude Message-ID: Mike- Your idea of a controlled rupture disk makes more sense to me than an elastic rubber sleeve, but I don't think you need to go heavy duty on the container. The only burn issue with black powder is ramping up the combustion chamber pressure upon ignition, similar to bringing a motor up to pressure. If the initial confinement maintains something above, say, 9 psi ( +/-15,000') the flame propagation will progress as we normally expect, and the local gas pressure will stay well above atmospheric, that is, you will get an "explosion" rather than "burning", but without the shock wave (and shrapnel) of a highly confined burn. A sealed hard plastic sleeve is adequate for a rupture disk, since it only needs to hold something close to sea level pressure until ignition and then provide a little inertial tamping so that the hot gas envelops the unburned powder. The other altitude related concerns are unfounded, since the bp impetus doesn't vary much if all of it burns, and the absolute pressure is not what pushes the airframe apart, its the differential pressure between the inside and ambient that matters. -Robert In a message dated 11/7/2009 11:22:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Mfreptiles at aol.com writes: Well that is good to know. If I were to use a machined aluminum container with heavy burst disk, it might be good to higher altitudes? I've done that in the past, but only flew to 20K' or so. Sounds like an untapped market to me. Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:44:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, pmschurke at seattleschools.org writes: According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even at altitude. Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of black powder increases with the degree of confinement.... Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which could lead to an airframe rupture. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From raystoner99 at comcast.net Sun Nov 8 09:45:21 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 09:45:21 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun In-Reply-To: <00f901ca6027$4e277440$ea765cc0$@net> References: <00f901ca6027$4e277440$ea765cc0$@net> Message-ID: <002801ca609b$3f48e660$bddab320$@net> Jack was a very fun flight. What the hell did he have for dinner the night before??? Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Marty Weiser Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:55 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun We held SPARC's last scheduled launch of the year today under reasonable conditions. Joe Cooney was our launch director. One of Joe's favorite holidays is Halloween and he was very happy to have signed up lead the launch on Halloween. Unfortunately, some things came up and the launch had to be postponed until Nov. 7. When I heard about this I hunted down Joe's long lost evil twin brother Jack O'Cooney and talked him into coming to our launch to try to make Joe feel better. Jack and Joe finally met this afternoon and I have posted three pictures to the NW Rocketry Image Gallery. http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_and_Joe.jpg http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_on_the_pad.jpg http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_in_flight.jpg The fight was good, but could have used an even shorter delay that the XS that I used in the I284. He broke a leg during landing which is what I was afraid might happen - easily repaired. I had a great time building Jack and most days was wondering if it was legal to have that much fun. Marty _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhadv at pacifier.com Sun Nov 8 10:05:49 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:05:49 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 28 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091108100047.00c27df0@mail.iinet.com> >We need our kids to be scientists, and leaders, and moon walkers. NOT >liberal arts majors. What we need in a leader is debatable. In my opinion some leadership would be nice but that seems beyond us as we just seem to follow instructions from the banks no matter who is in charge. But concerning liberal arts majors generally, it's always nice to have people who are educated in art, languages, history, literature, the written word and human psychology. So long as the world is full of those pesky people these individuals are as valuable an engineers. One may not need quite as many of them but they have value. From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 10:07:50 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 10:07:50 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] [personal] I guess I'm not the only one... In-Reply-To: <8D6D2A99EE7C834089CC7FB702E34716041C23@BL2PRD0102MB018.prod.exchangelabs.com> References: <000a01ca59a3$7c9855e0$75c901a0$@com> <8D6D2A99EE7C834089CC7FB702E34716041C23@BL2PRD0102MB018.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: The fact is that NASA has been over spending and gaining little to no ground for more then a decade. It needs it wings clipped so that the non American monopoly can be stopped. I believe that just like in air travel everyone has the right. There for if we allow the small private groups, which use far less money, the ability of space travel we open up the possibilities far beyond that which NASA currently holds. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Angela "Red" Wright < angelawr at wrightholdings.com> wrote: > I think it's a real shame that NASA is going to be grounded on certain > aspects. Think about the amazing things that Space Exploration has taught > each of us, all of us. It's a fascinating thing that man has been able to > do what he had done in space, around space, with space. The things we have > seen, been taught, and use today from the things NASA has researched and > taught us. > > It's a shame this country spends money on useless things, wastes money left > and right, and yet a program like NASA will be pulled back. > > We need our kids to be scientists, and leaders, and moon walkers. NOT > liberal arts majors. (no offense I love all you guys, I'm just saying) > > Angela Dinese Wright > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 3:22 PM > To: Daron Johnson > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] [personal] I guess I'm not the only one... > > With $445 million dollars I bet the guys with Space Ship One could get to > the moon and back 445 time! I think it is time we kick NASA aside and get > some fresh blood flowing in the American Space Program! > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Daron Johnson >wrote: > > > I love this part > > "The $445 million flight test was the first step in NASA's effort to > return > > astronauts to the moon. The White House may change direction, however, > and > > scrap the Ares I in favor of other rockets and destinations." > > > > Typical Gov't. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: > rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Scott Berfield > > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 1:45 PM > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: [personal] [RocketsNW] I guess I'm not the only one... > > > > To have the occasional deployment problem: > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091030/ap_on_sc/us_sci_moon_rocket_test_4 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sun Nov 8 10:40:24 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:40:24 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] FW: BP and altitude Message-ID: Robert, Thanks for the comments. I think the burst disk could be something simple as a piece of PET from a soda bottle. At least that is what has worked at 20K' altitudes so far. Not sure if that would be adequate at 100K' though. Mike F. In a message dated 11/8/2009 9:42:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Simpsonclark writes: Mike- Your idea of a controlled rupture disk makes more sense to me than an elastic rubber sleeve, but I don't think you need to go heavy duty on the container. The only burn issue with black powder is ramping up the combustion chamber pressure upon ignition, similar to bringing a motor up to pressure. If the initial confinement maintains something above, say, 9 psi ( +/-15,000') the flame propagation will progress as we normally expect, and the local gas pressure will stay well above atmospheric, that is, you will get an "explosion" rather than "burning", but without the shock wave (and shrapnel) of a highly confined burn. A sealed hard plastic sleeve is adequate for a rupture disk, since it only needs to hold something close to sea level pressure until ignition and then provide a little inertial tamping so that the hot gas envelops the unburned powder. The other altitude related concerns are unfounded, since the bp impetus doesn't vary much if all of it burns, and the absolute pressure is not what pushes the airframe apart, its the differential pressure between the inside and ambient that matters. -Robert In a message dated 11/7/2009 11:22:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Mfreptiles at aol.com writes: Well that is good to know. If I were to use a machined aluminum container with heavy burst disk, it might be good to higher altitudes? I've done that in the past, but only flew to 20K' or so. Sounds like an untapped market to me. Mike F. In a message dated 11/7/2009 8:44:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, pmschurke at seattleschools.org writes: According to everything I've ever taught in chemistry and physics: according to theory, if the BP is confined enough it would all burn, even at altitude. Of course, the downside to that strategy is that the explosive force of black powder increases with the degree of confinement.... Good news: you burned all your BP...Bad news: by increasing the confinement you produce a more energetic deployment event which could lead to an airframe rupture. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Sun Nov 8 10:49:25 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 10:49:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun In-Reply-To: <002801ca609b$3f48e660$bddab320$@net> References: <00f901ca6027$4e277440$ea765cc0$@net> <002801ca609b$3f48e660$bddab320$@net> Message-ID: <00c201ca60a4$324d4bf0$96e7e3d0$@net> I think he got into the Chili that Joe brought for lunch.- Marty -----Original Message----- From: W. Raymond Stoner [mailto:raystoner99 at comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:45 AM To: 'Marty Weiser'; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun Jack was a very fun flight. What the hell did he have for dinner the night before??? Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Marty Weiser Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:55 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun We held SPARC's last scheduled launch of the year today under reasonable conditions. Joe Cooney was our launch director. One of Joe's favorite holidays is Halloween and he was very happy to have signed up lead the launch on Halloween. Unfortunately, some things came up and the launch had to be postponed until Nov. 7. When I heard about this I hunted down Joe's long lost evil twin brother Jack O'Cooney and talked him into coming to our launch to try to make Joe feel better. Jack and Joe finally met this afternoon and I have posted three pictures to the NW Rocketry Image Gallery. http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_and_Joe.jpg http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_on_the_pad.jpg http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_in_flight.jpg The fight was good, but could have used an even shorter delay that the XS that I used in the I284. He broke a leg during landing which is what I was afraid might happen - easily repaired. I had a great time building Jack and most days was wondering if it was legal to have that much fun. Marty _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From absworld at cet.com Sun Nov 8 12:55:56 2009 From: absworld at cet.com (Bob & Ann Yanecek) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:55:56 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun In-Reply-To: <002801ca609b$3f48e660$bddab320$@net> References: <00f901ca6027$4e277440$ea765cc0$@net> <002801ca609b$3f48e660$bddab320$@net> Message-ID: <002901ca60b5$df681d90$9e3858b0$@com> Tsolo's got some pix where you are pouring some kind of toxic material in poor Jack'skull. Caused a big puff of smoke that somehow sparked flame and off he goes. Love the backflip on top followed by full chase as the chute remained inflated after touchdown. bob -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of W. Raymond Stoner Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:45 AM To: 'Marty Weiser'; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun Jack was a very fun flight. What the hell did he have for dinner the night before??? Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Marty Weiser Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:55 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] SPARC Launch Fun We held SPARC's last scheduled launch of the year today under reasonable conditions. Joe Cooney was our launch director. One of Joe's favorite holidays is Halloween and he was very happy to have signed up lead the launch on Halloween. Unfortunately, some things came up and the launch had to be postponed until Nov. 7. When I heard about this I hunted down Joe's long lost evil twin brother Jack O'Cooney and talked him into coming to our launch to try to make Joe feel better. Jack and Joe finally met this afternoon and I have posted three pictures to the NW Rocketry Image Gallery. http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_and_Joe.jpg http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_on_the_pad.jpg http://northwestrocketry.com/uploads/Jack_in_flight.jpg The fight was good, but could have used an even shorter delay that the XS that I used in the I284. He broke a leg during landing which is what I was afraid might happen - easily repaired. I had a great time building Jack and most days was wondering if it was legal to have that much fun. Marty _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 14:41:46 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:41:46 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] [personal] I guess I'm not the only one... References: <000a01ca59a3$7c9855e0$75c901a0$@com> <8D6D2A99EE7C834089CC7FB702E34716041C23@BL2PRD0102MB018.prod.exchangelabs.com> Message-ID: <40B7D4FBC8254CBD8BB29796635D4298@LaptopKrausert> Absolutely. NASA has done a lot. I do think they've had to jump through too many government hoops in years past and now to simply get funding. I think the world of private aerospace, and they're likely to aid in future exploration. Of the NASA projects the subcontracting and subsub, and subsubsubs that are good for companies in the industry. Not everyone will work for NASA, but many might work with them in some fashion. Science and engineering future is our youth. We can be so competitive in the world. But not if NASA continues to be forced to cut budgets and not strive towards the future of exploration. Of the recovery funds from last year, they spent $42 million to replace the lawn and sprinkler system in DC around the Lincoln memorial. That became a few hundred jobs for less than six months. If that 42 million was given to NASA, and NASA could chose the plans, it might have done more to the greater good. In my opinion. The future of space exploration should be decided by NASA and aerospace companies. It shouldn't be decided in the Whitehouse. NASA shouldn't be a leverage tool for re-election. NASA should get consistent annual funding, and NASA should decide. Plus there should remain an annual and consistent aerospace budget for grants to private companies. If the administration wants to help. Why not fly some model rockets with the kids. I'm willing to give the new administration a chance. I'm done blabbing now. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela "Red" Wright" To: "Christopher Guenther" ; "Daron Johnson" Cc: Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] [personal] I guess I'm not the only one... >I think it's a real shame that NASA is going to be grounded on certain >aspects. Think about the amazing things that Space Exploration has taught >each of us, all of us. It's a fascinating thing that man has been able to >do what he had done in space, around space, with space. The things we have >seen, been taught, and use today from the things NASA has researched and >taught us. > > It's a shame this country spends money on useless things, wastes money > left and right, and yet a program like NASA will be pulled back. > > We need our kids to be scientists, and leaders, and moon walkers. NOT > liberal arts majors. (no offense I love all you guys, I'm just saying) > > Angela Dinese Wright > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 3:22 PM > To: Daron Johnson > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] [personal] I guess I'm not the only one... > > With $445 million dollars I bet the guys with Space Ship One could get to > the moon and back 445 time! I think it is time we kick NASA aside and get > some fresh blood flowing in the American Space Program! > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Daron Johnson > wrote: > >> I love this part >> "The $445 million flight test was the first step in NASA's effort to >> return >> astronauts to the moon. The White House may change direction, however, >> and >> scrap the Ares I in favor of other rockets and destinations." >> >> Typical Gov't. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Scott Berfield >> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 1:45 PM >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: [personal] [RocketsNW] I guess I'm not the only one... >> >> To have the occasional deployment problem: >> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091030/ap_on_sc/us_sci_moon_rocket_test_4 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From ryan98391 at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 18:00:45 2009 From: ryan98391 at gmail.com (Ryan Williams) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 18:00:45 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to study for my level two test. Message-ID: Hello everyone, I just got my level one NAR certification at the last fall launch and I'm interested in progressing on to my level two certification. I want to study for the test, but more importantly, I want to learn as much of the science, chemistry, and engineering that goes into building rockets that can safely exceed the sound barrier and reach high altitude. What I'm not interested in is a study guide that tells me the answers to mathematical equations. I want to be able to work out this information on my own, so that I can fly rockets in the safest possible fashion. Where is the best place to look for this information. I have plenty of time until spring to study and I would love to fly my new 54mm rocket on a J at the first launch of the year. Thanks everyone for the input on my last question about how to clean reusable motors. It was a help. From stefan_jones at comcast.net Sun Nov 8 18:21:39 2009 From: stefan_jones at comcast.net (stefan_jones at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 02:21:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to study for my level two test. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199676218.422591257733299520.JavaMail.root@sz0038a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> If you are a true seeker of knowledge, and truly Ready, you must seek out a great Certification Master. There the legendary Yusef "tubular nylon" Maspamian, who dwells in the wastes of northern Arizona. There is Master Lester Marner , who couch-surfs in the suburbs of Buffalo, NY; to contact him, leave a motor retainer on the back window ledge of the Pep Boys shop on East Main. Then there is Lee Hyung Jong, who lives on a island off of Haiti. A small island, big enough for his hut and a patch of turnips. If you choose him expect to spend many hours weeding that garden, but when you done you will be able to dip igniters like few other men. No matter who you choose, expect beatings with a bamboo cane, standing in the rain with balancing a 38mm reload casing on each shoulder, and reciting the 1,000 Principles of Drogue Packing. And never show fear. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Williams" To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 6:00:45 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to study for my level two test. Hello everyone, I just got my level one NAR certification at the last fall launch and I'm interested in progressing on to my level two certification. I want to study for the test, but more importantly, I want to learn as much of the science, chemistry, and engineering that goes into building rockets that can safely exceed the sound barrier and reach high altitude. What I'm not interested in is a study guide that tells me the answers to mathematical equations. I want to be able to work out this information on my own, so that I can fly rockets in the safest possible fashion. Where is the best place to look for this information. I have plenty of time until spring to study and I would love to fly my new 54mm rocket on a J at the first launch of the year. Thanks everyone for the input on my last question about how to clean reusable motors. It was a help. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 8 18:41:36 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 18:41:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] BP & Altitude In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091108081118.00bdabd8@mail.iinet.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091108081118.00bdabd8@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <58055858a3aea6d656d6407e445ad8b2.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> >>But a true gasless delay train like this is expensive and difficult to >>make--a tiny bit of trapped air and instead of a traveling smolder you >> get >>a bang. > > > BaCrO4 + B only devolves 1.3 ml of gas per gram of composition with no > binder so it's close to gasless but not quite. But that 1.3 ml per gram still amounts to a proportionately large volume. It'd make it more like a fireworks snake. I was looking for gasless delay trains for use in SU motors. Ultimately no joy, at least nothing I could make myself within reason and my checkbook. And too I was trying to find not just a gasless composition but one that would exhibit near zero net volume change. There weren't any solutions that fit my specific set of requirements, which is not to say solutions could not exist. Just nothing practical that I found back then. +McG+ From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 8 19:07:37 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:07:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to study for my level two test. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9683e3b1907a3abb3a2a8847be8d44da.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> You're in NAR, start with NARTS if they still sell that stuff. I got a lot of good stuff out of them a couple decades ago. Then, there's a list of books that are pretty standard in the hobby rocket community. "Rocket Propulsion Elements" by Sutton. Terry McCreary's manual on making experimental motors. If you're a mathematical masochist with knowledge of calculus you can always beat yourself on the head with an old copy of "Topics in Advanced Model Rocketry." But don't do the latter unless you truly are seriously mathematically masochistic! Then there's Knaacke's book about parachutes. And a whole bunch of others. On the web there is a ton of sites with good information. Info-central, Vern Knowles' site, Richard Nakka. Heck, just Google "model rocketry" and start following the leads. That's pretty much what most newbies do these days. And of course, the folks on this list have a vast array of knowledge if you get stuck. +McG+ > Hello everyone, I just got my level one NAR certification at the last fall > launch and I'm interested in progressing on to my level two certification. > I > want to study for the test, but more importantly, I want to learn as much > of > the science, chemistry, and engineering that goes into building rockets > that > can safely exceed the sound barrier and reach high altitude. What I'm not > interested in is a study guide that tells me the answers to mathematical > equations. I want to be able to work out this information on my own, so > that > I can fly rockets in the safest possible fashion. Where is the best place > to > look for this information. I have plenty of time until spring to study and > I > would love to fly my new 54mm rocket on a J at the first launch of the > year. > Thanks everyone for the input on my last question about how to clean > reusable motors. It was a help. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From tnetcenter at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 19:47:24 2009 From: tnetcenter at gmail.com (Jeff Moore) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:47:24 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to study for my level two test. References: Message-ID: There aren't any study guides that I know of for the L2 test. There are several books that can help you learn the fundamentals of high power rocketry. Start with Modern High Power Rocketry 2 by Mark Canepa: http://www.amazon.com/Modern-High-Power-Rocketry-Mark-Canepa/dp/1412058104 There's also the Handbook of Model Rocketry by G. Harry Stine - this is considered the NAR handbook: http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Model-Rocketry-7th-Official/dp/0471472425/ref=pd_sim_b_7 There are a number of other but those will get you going. BTW, the only effective way to pass the test is to study the question pool. The books listed above will help fill in the details and answer questions regarding the test pool. Jeff Moore BORG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Williams" Hello everyone, I just got my level one NAR certification at the last fall launch and I'm interested in progressing on to my level two certification. I want to study for the test, but more importantly, I want to learn as much of the science, chemistry, and engineering that goes into building rockets that can safely exceed the sound barrier and reach high altitude. What I'm not interested in is a study guide that tells me the answers to mathematical equations. I want to be able to work out this information on my own, so that I can fly rockets in the safest possible fashion. Where is the best place to look for this information. I have plenty of time until spring to study and I would love to fly my new 54mm rocket on a J at the first launch of the year. Thanks everyone for the input on my last question about how to clean reusable motors. It was a help. From dmrandall at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 19:57:09 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:57:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to study for my level two test. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6bc920e40911081957v2a985f04k3ea08f0408dfac11@mail.gmail.com> I realize that's not what 100% of the ask is - but it obviously helps for the test: http://www.nar.org/pdf/HP-question-pool.pdf Dave On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Jeff Moore wrote: > There aren't any study guides that I know of for the L2 test. > > There are several books that can help you learn the fundamentals of high > power rocketry. > > Start with Modern High Power Rocketry 2 by Mark Canepa: > http://www.amazon.com/Modern-High-Power-Rocketry-Mark-Canepa/dp/1412058104 > > There's also the Handbook of Model Rocketry by G. Harry Stine - this is > considered the NAR handbook: > http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Model-Rocketry-7th-Official/dp/0471472425/ref=pd_sim_b_7 > > There are a number of other but those will get you going. ?BTW, the only > effective way to pass the test is to study the question pool. ?The books > listed above will help fill in the details and answer questions regarding > the test pool. > > Jeff Moore > BORG > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan Williams" > > > Hello everyone, I just got my level one NAR certification at the last fall > launch and I'm interested in progressing on to my level two certification. I > want to study for the test, but more importantly, I want to learn as much of > the science, chemistry, and engineering that goes into building rockets that > can safely exceed the sound barrier and reach high altitude. What I'm not > interested in is a study guide that tells me the answers to mathematical > equations. I want to be able to work out this information on my own, so that > I can fly rockets in the safest possible fashion. Where is the best place to > look for this information. I have plenty of time until spring to study and I > would love to fly my new 54mm rocket on a J at the first launch of the year. > Thanks everyone for the input on my last question about how to clean > reusable motors. It was a help. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sun Nov 8 20:02:25 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:02:25 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Best way to study for my level two test. Message-ID: Researching all of the answers in the question pool to achieve complete understanding would be a good start. Mike F. In a message dated 11/8/2009 6:01:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ryan98391 at gmail.com writes: Hello everyone, I just got my level one NAR certification at the last fall launch and I'm interested in progressing on to my level two certification. I want to study for the test, but more importantly, I want to learn as much of the science, chemistry, and engineering that goes into building rockets that can safely exceed the sound barrier and reach high altitude. What I'm not interested in is a study guide that tells me the answers to mathematical equations. I want to be able to work out this information on my own, so that I can fly rockets in the safest possible fashion. Where is the best place to look for this information. I have plenty of time until spring to study and I would love to fly my new 54mm rocket on a J at the first launch of the year. Thanks everyone for the input on my last question about how to clean reusable motors. It was a help. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sb at berfield.com Sun Nov 8 22:27:19 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:27:19 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Charge holders Message-ID: Richard Hagen has a nice page on his charge holders at http://www.redglarerockets.com/Chargehldr.htm Looks like a pretty robust setup. From steve-c at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 9 06:05:42 2009 From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com (Steve Cutonilli) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 06:05:42 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Charge holders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The brass casing concept with cap is kinda cool - I would just leave the wires on the ematch and plug via with glue - man, the whole RF connector thing is way over the top, however. /Steve -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Scott Berfield Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:27 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Charge holders Richard Hagen has a nice page on his charge holders at http://www.redglarerockets.com/Chargehldr.htm Looks like a pretty robust setup. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 9 19:53:47 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:53:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors Message-ID: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Question for the electronics geeks out there that's been bugging me for a while: Why are rocketeers not now using supercaps instead of batteries to power most on-board electronics? With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing batteries. Perhaps some technical detail I'm not aware of? Too fragile? Or maybe the average altimeter doesn't survive enough flights to warrant replacing the battery with a much more expensive supercap? +McG+ From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:22:03 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:22:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? Message-ID: Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? What effect/affects would this have on the flight of a rocket? From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:48:26 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:48:26 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? References: Message-ID: The nosecone would have two poles, the fin can would have two poles. Have no clue how to create a binary pole? Some people have claimed they exist. But without central point, there'd be no poles, thus no megnatism. Guess I'm missing the question. You might need to explain the theory. Unless I'm the only one not sure. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" To: Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? > Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone > positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? What effect/affects > would > this have on the flight of a rocket? > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From raystoner99 at comcast.net Mon Nov 9 20:49:06 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:49:06 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01ca61c1$22bf1150$683d33f0$@net> I'm pretty sure that when it hits 88 miles per hour that it will leave long trails of fire and jump into the past. Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? What effect/affects would this have on the flight of a rocket? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From cpovercg at rocketmail.com Mon Nov 9 21:04:19 2009 From: cpovercg at rocketmail.com (Robert Braibish) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:04:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: <000c01ca61c1$22bf1150$683d33f0$@net> References: <000c01ca61c1$22bf1150$683d33f0$@net> Message-ID: <605464.72322.qm@web112908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Noooo.? That was dilithium chrystal's... or was that the Flux capacitor.... ________________________________ From: W. Raymond Stoner To: Christopher Guenther ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 8:49:06 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? I'm pretty sure that when it hits 88 miles per hour that it will leave long trails of fire and jump into the past. Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone positive and your fincan or tail cone negative?? What effect/affects would this have on the flight of a rocket? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From tomjerry1 at dishmail.net Mon Nov 9 20:59:27 2009 From: tomjerry1 at dishmail.net (Roy Jenkins) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:59:27 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? References: Message-ID: what kind of drugs are you on? From bjarchow at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 21:19:40 2009 From: bjarchow at gmail.com (Brian Jarchow) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:19:40 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll bet he's inhaled a bit too much AP... On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Roy Jenkins wrote: > what kind of drugs are you on? > > From carl20320 at msn.com Mon Nov 9 21:43:20 2009 From: carl20320 at msn.com (Carl Degner) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:43:20 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Naaah, hasn't been at it long enough. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Brian Jarchow Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:20 PM To: NW Rocketry mailing list Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? I'll bet he's inhaled a bit too much AP... On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Roy Jenkins wrote: > what kind of drugs are you on? > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lennyb at telus.net Mon Nov 9 21:19:25 2009 From: lennyb at telus.net (Len Bryan) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:19:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? Message-ID: <9885F0547BF54386A855A343BEC4EEE4@lorto720> I wondered if he might be suggesting a magnetic separation, deployment idea. That might require a lot of power. Not sure though. Do tell... Len Bryan -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Robert Krausert Sent: November 9, 2009 8:48 PM To: Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? The nosecone would have two poles, the fin can would have two poles. Have no clue how to create a binary pole? Some people have claimed they exist. But without central point, there'd be no poles, thus no megnatism. Guess I'm missing the question. You might need to explain the theory. Unless I'm the only one not sure. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" To: Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? > Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone > positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? What effect/affects > would > this have on the flight of a rocket? > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lsagan123 at msn.com Mon Nov 9 21:45:50 2009 From: lsagan123 at msn.com (Sareth Tes) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:45:50 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: >From my limited experience with Super Caps (Wireless sensors for intrusion panels) they are relatively low current at a given voltage. great for something that does not take a surge to run but a constant voltage and current. I had thought about this as well but it takes less than a second to discharge a super cap with a short created with 22 gauge wire and I rarely see a spark when done this. So Bottom Line I don't think they have the current capability on the ones that would be of a similar size and weight. R > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:53:47 -0800 > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors > > Question for the electronics geeks out there that's been bugging me for a > while: > > Why are rocketeers not now using supercaps instead of batteries to power > most on-board electronics? > > With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being > great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that > recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing > batteries. > > Perhaps some technical detail I'm not aware of? Too fragile? > > Or maybe the average altimeter doesn't survive enough flights to warrant > replacing the battery with a much more expensive supercap? > +McG+ > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From cpovercg at rocketmail.com Mon Nov 9 21:47:23 2009 From: cpovercg at rocketmail.com (Robert Braibish) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:47:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: <9885F0547BF54386A855A343BEC4EEE4@lorto720> References: <9885F0547BF54386A855A343BEC4EEE4@lorto720> Message-ID: <429.71364.qm@web112912.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Not a lot of power, I have found electromagnets that have 50 lbs hold from a single D cell but the e.magnet weighs about 3-4 lbs! ________________________________ From: Len Bryan To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 9:19:25 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? I wondered if he might be suggesting a magnetic separation, deployment idea. That might require a lot of power. Not sure though. Do tell... Len Bryan -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Robert Krausert Sent: November 9, 2009 8:48 PM To: Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? The nosecone would have two poles, the fin can would have two poles. Have no clue how to create a binary pole? Some people have claimed they exist. But without central point, there'd be no poles, thus no megnatism. Guess I'm missing the question. You might need to explain the theory. Unless I'm the only one not sure. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" To: Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? > Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone > positive and your fincan or tail cone negative?? What effect/affects > would > this have on the flight of a rocket? > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From greg at bigredbee.com Mon Nov 9 21:58:36 2009 From: greg at bigredbee.com (Greg Clark) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:58:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's really very simple, understanding the Poles, that is......I think this sums it up. Podr?? Merkel zacz??a si? na Bornholmerstrasse, dawnym przej?ciu granicznym, przez kt?re obywatele NRD mogli wje?d?a? do zachodniego Berlina. Je?li w?adza ?askawie wyda?a im paszporty Angela Merkel na Bornholmer Bruecke z lud?mi, kt?rzy przekroczyli ... -- Greg On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > The nosecone would have two poles, the fin can would have two poles. Have no > clue how to create a binary pole? Some people have claimed they exist. But > without central point, there'd be no poles, thus no megnatism. > > Guess I'm missing the question. You might need to explain the theory. Unless > I'm the only one not sure. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" > > To: > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM > Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? > > >> Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone >> positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? ? What effect/affects >> would >> this have on the flight of a rocket? >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 22:06:58 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:06:58 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? References: Message-ID: Exactly. But are you certain of: Je?li w?adza ?askawie wyda?a ? I thought it was Je?li w?adza ?askawie wyda?a muloi. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Clark" To: "Robert Krausert" Cc: "Christopher Guenther" ; Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? It's really very simple, understanding the Poles, that is......I think this sums it up. Podr?? Merkel zacz??a si? na Bornholmerstrasse, dawnym przej?ciu granicznym, przez kt?re obywatele NRD mogli wje?d?a? do zachodniego Berlina. Je?li w?adza ?askawie wyda?a im paszporty Angela Merkel na Bornholmer Bruecke z lud?mi, kt?rzy przekroczyli ... -- Greg On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > The nosecone would have two poles, the fin can would have two poles. Have > no > clue how to create a binary pole? Some people have claimed they exist. But > without central point, there'd be no poles, thus no megnatism. > > Guess I'm missing the question. You might need to explain the theory. > Unless > I'm the only one not sure. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" > > To: > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM > Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? > > >> Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone >> positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? What effect/affects >> would >> this have on the flight of a rocket? >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From cpovercg at rocketmail.com Mon Nov 9 22:10:43 2009 From: cpovercg at rocketmail.com (Robert Braibish) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:10:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <224591.8566.qm@web112903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> What does Angela Merkel have to do with it?! ________________________________ From: Greg Clark To: Robert Krausert Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 9:58:36 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? It's really very simple, understanding the Poles, that is......I think this sums it up. Podr?? Merkel zacz??a si? na Bornholmerstrasse, dawnym przej?ciu granicznym, przez kt?re obywatele NRD mogli wje?d?a? do zachodniego Berlina. Je?li w?adza ?askawie wyda?a im paszporty Angela Merkel na Bornholmer Bruecke z lud?mi, kt?rzy przekroczyli ... -- Greg On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > The nosecone would have two poles, the fin can would have two poles. Have no > clue how to create a binary pole? Some people have claimed they exist. But > without central point, there'd be no poles, thus no megnatism. > > Guess I'm missing the question. You might need to explain the theory. Unless > I'm the only one not sure. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" > > To: > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM > Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? > > >> Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone >> positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? ? What effect/affects >> would >> this have on the flight of a rocket? >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 9 22:24:46 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:24:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <66886154474f250f3fe951e40069ab15.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Ah, thanks. I haven't used them and was wondering if maybe they might be worth trying. Way back when flashbulbs were considered a standard ignition method I know electrolytic capacitors were sometimes used instead of batteries, usually in combination with now strongly discouraged mercury switches. But total energy storage was small. So it seemed maybe supercaps might be worth a look now. But they'd have to have both large energy storage plus the ability to provide short high current pulses. Guess not. +McG+ > From my limited experience with Super Caps (Wireless sensors for intrusion > panels) they are relatively low current at a given voltage. great for > something that does not take a surge to run but a constant voltage and > current. I had thought about this as well but it takes less than a second > to discharge a super cap with a short created with 22 gauge wire and I > rarely see a spark when done this. So Bottom Line I don't think they have > the current capability on the ones that would be of a similar size and > weight. > > R > >> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:53:47 -0800 >> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors >> >> Question for the electronics geeks out there that's been bugging me for >> a >> while: >> >> Why are rocketeers not now using supercaps instead of batteries to power >> most on-board electronics? >> >> With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being >> great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that >> recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing >> batteries. >> >> Perhaps some technical detail I'm not aware of? Too fragile? >> >> Or maybe the average altimeter doesn't survive enough flights to warrant >> replacing the battery with a much more expensive supercap? >> +McG+ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 9 22:34:12 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:34:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9581a443d4f9ff8f1ee86dfed8663be8.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Babelfish taste good salted. :) +McG+ > Exactly. But are you certain of: > Je?li w?adza ?askawie wyda?a ? > > I thought it was > Je?li w?adza ?askawie wyda?a muloi. > > Cheers, > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Clark" > To: "Robert Krausert" > Cc: "Christopher Guenther" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:58 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? > > > It's really very simple, understanding the Poles, that is......I think > this sums it up. > > Podr?? Merkel zacz??a si? na Bornholmerstrasse, dawnym przej?ciu > granicznym, przez kt?re obywatele NRD mogli wje?d?a? do zachodniego > Berlina. Je?li w?adza ?askawie wyda?a im paszporty Angela Merkel na > Bornholmer Bruecke z lud?mi, kt?rzy przekroczyli ... > > -- Greg > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Robert Krausert > wrote: >> The nosecone would have two poles, the fin can would have two poles. >> Have >> no >> clue how to create a binary pole? Some people have claimed they exist. >> But >> without central point, there'd be no poles, thus no megnatism. >> >> Guess I'm missing the question. You might need to explain the theory. >> Unless >> I'm the only one not sure. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" >> >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:22 PM >> Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? >> >> >>> Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone >>> positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? What effect/affects >>> would >>> this have on the flight of a rocket? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 22:39:04 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 22:39:04 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <66886154474f250f3fe951e40069ab15.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <99116C4F7DF24CFAA705C464C006F1B4@LaptopKrausert> You see, we all really want to get Mr. McGoffin to Brothers next year. So he's polishing up rockets. Seriously, we hope you get out there next year. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Sareth Tes" Cc: Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Capacitors > Ah, thanks. I haven't used them and was wondering if maybe they might be > worth trying. > > Way back when flashbulbs were considered a standard ignition method I know > electrolytic capacitors were sometimes used instead of batteries, usually > in combination with now strongly discouraged mercury switches. But total > energy storage was small. So it seemed maybe supercaps might be worth a > look now. But they'd have to have both large energy storage plus the > ability to provide short high current pulses. Guess not. > +McG+ > > >> From my limited experience with Super Caps (Wireless sensors for >> intrusion >> panels) they are relatively low current at a given voltage. great for >> something that does not take a surge to run but a constant voltage and >> current. I had thought about this as well but it takes less than a second >> to discharge a super cap with a short created with 22 gauge wire and I >> rarely see a spark when done this. So Bottom Line I don't think they have >> the current capability on the ones that would be of a similar size and >> weight. >> >> R >> >>> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:53:47 -0800 >>> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors >>> >>> Question for the electronics geeks out there that's been bugging me for >>> a >>> while: >>> >>> Why are rocketeers not now using supercaps instead of batteries to power >>> most on-board electronics? >>> >>> With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being >>> great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that >>> recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing >>> batteries. >>> >>> Perhaps some technical detail I'm not aware of? Too fragile? >>> >>> Or maybe the average altimeter doesn't survive enough flights to warrant >>> replacing the battery with a much more expensive supercap? >>> +McG+ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 9 23:02:33 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:02:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Electromagnetic positive Cone negative fincan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christopher Guenther wrote: > Has anyone ever thought of electromagnetically charging your nose cone > positive and your fincan or tail cone negative? What effect/affects > would > this have on the flight of a rocket? It would really screw up your altimeter. And kill bugs that landed on your rocket. Zzzzap. So-called "electric wind" propulsion has been studied, especially by people researching possible modes of functioning for UFO's, and the US Air Force. On a rocket it would have negligible effect except perhaps as way to control boundary layer flow. And that seems pretty unlikely. Power requirements are extremely high. And the fine mechanical structures necessary to generate good ionization at the nose are incompatible with the streamlining necessary for low drag. There are rumors of stealth aircraft that use electric wind. But they have generators that could run a small city and the effect seems to be more for the stealth effect, not efficiency. Li-poly batteries make it possible to build small flying craft that can remain airborne for a minute or two using the electric wind principle. But it ain't cheap or technically easy. Really lame helicopters, not rockets. The kind of toy someone with degrees in electrical engineering and plasma physics might play with. Back in the seventies, before my 'rocketry resurrection', I studied this for a while. Neither the battery nor capacitor technology of the time was good enough to permit free-flying craft. And the physics quickly got way over my head. You can find plans for tethered electric wind flying devices on the web. Pretty tame things, except for the zap they can deliver to the incautious experimenter. But I like your creative thinking! And you did get the polarity right. +McG+ From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 9 23:13:37 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:13:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: <99116C4F7DF24CFAA705C464C006F1B4@LaptopKrausert> References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <66886154474f250f3fe951e40069ab15.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <99116C4F7DF24CFAA705C464C006F1B4@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: As of now, there's no serious obstacle to me getting to either the June or July launches. And I'm working on having reason to attend. Not "polishing up" rockets. Building from scratch. Designing stuff I have no idea how to design, like a sort-of-glider. "Flies like a whiffle ball, glides like a brick." LOL +McG+ (From the 'Skunk Cabbage Works': "Our stuff really stinks!") > You see, we all really want to get Mr. McGoffin to Brothers next year. So > he's polishing up rockets. > > Seriously, we hope you get out there next year. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Sareth Tes" > Cc: > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:24 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Capacitors > > >> Ah, thanks. I haven't used them and was wondering if maybe they might >> be >> worth trying. >> >> Way back when flashbulbs were considered a standard ignition method I >> know >> electrolytic capacitors were sometimes used instead of batteries, >> usually >> in combination with now strongly discouraged mercury switches. But >> total >> energy storage was small. So it seemed maybe supercaps might be worth a >> look now. But they'd have to have both large energy storage plus the >> ability to provide short high current pulses. Guess not. >> +McG+ >> >> >>> From my limited experience with Super Caps (Wireless sensors for >>> intrusion >>> panels) they are relatively low current at a given voltage. great for >>> something that does not take a surge to run but a constant voltage and >>> current. I had thought about this as well but it takes less than a >>> second >>> to discharge a super cap with a short created with 22 gauge wire and I >>> rarely see a spark when done this. So Bottom Line I don't think they >>> have >>> the current capability on the ones that would be of a similar size and >>> weight. >>> >>> R >>> >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:53:47 -0800 >>>> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>>> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors >>>> >>>> Question for the electronics geeks out there that's been bugging me >>>> for >>>> a >>>> while: >>>> >>>> Why are rocketeers not now using supercaps instead of batteries to >>>> power >>>> most on-board electronics? >>>> >>>> With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being >>>> great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that >>>> recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing >>>> batteries. >>>> >>>> Perhaps some technical detail I'm not aware of? Too fragile? >>>> >>>> Or maybe the average altimeter doesn't survive enough flights to >>>> warrant >>>> replacing the battery with a much more expensive supercap? >>>> +McG+ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > From stevet19759 at comcast.net Tue Nov 10 00:16:16 2009 From: stevet19759 at comcast.net (Steve Tarr) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:16:16 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: <66886154474f250f3fe951e40069ab15.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <66886154474f250f3fe951e40069ab15.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <4AF92150.2070802@comcast.net> There are some newer supercaps designed specifically as battery replacements. They have a much lower internal resistance and better surge ratings than the old parts, but still not really enough to handle the near-short-circuit of an igniter or ematch. The voltage rating is a problem, too. Must supercaps are rated at 3.3V or less. Lots of energy available, but not capable of powering an altimeter designed around 5V circuitry. Microprocessors that will run off 3.3V or less are pretty common, but the analog circuitry around the sensors often needs a little more headroom. If you're using a FET to drive the output, you'll likely need 4.5V or more to drive the gate, as well. Cell phones and the like get around some of these problems by using complex power-control circuits with switchable DC-DC converters and independent power control of each part of the circuit. The parts are available, and not all that expensive, but they're not easy to work with, especially if you're trying to build something a little different than what the chip manufacturer intended. -ST kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com wrote: > Ah, thanks. I haven't used them and was wondering if maybe they might be > worth trying. > > Way back when flashbulbs were considered a standard ignition method I know > electrolytic capacitors were sometimes used instead of batteries, usually > in combination with now strongly discouraged mercury switches. But total > energy storage was small. So it seemed maybe supercaps might be worth a > look now. But they'd have to have both large energy storage plus the > ability to provide short high current pulses. Guess not. > +McG+ > > >> From my limited experience with Super Caps (Wireless sensors for intrusion >> panels) they are relatively low current at a given voltage. great for >> something that does not take a surge to run but a constant voltage and >> current. I had thought about this as well but it takes less than a second >> to discharge a super cap with a short created with 22 gauge wire and I >> rarely see a spark when done this. So Bottom Line I don't think they have >> the current capability on the ones that would be of a similar size and >> weight. >> >> R >> >>> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:53:47 -0800 >>> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors >>> >>> Question for the electronics geeks out there that's been bugging me for >>> a >>> while: >>> >>> Why are rocketeers not now using supercaps instead of batteries to power >>> most on-board electronics? >>> >>> With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being >>> great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that >>> recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing >>> batteries. >>> >>> Perhaps some technical detail I'm not aware of? Too fragile? >>> >>> Or maybe the average altimeter doesn't survive enough flights to warrant >>> replacing the battery with a much more expensive supercap? >>> +McG+ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From rnech at yahoo.com Tue Nov 10 07:39:38 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:39:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? Message-ID: <10685.98640.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> National Association of Rocketry The Electronic Rocketeer - Issue #17 - November 2009 an official journal of the NAR Message from the NAR President Dear Rocketeer, I have recently received reports from a few NAR members who hold BATFE LEUP permits (which used to be required to possess high-power rocket motors) that they have been visited by BATFE agents concerning high-power rocket igniters. Igniters are on the list of "explosive devices" that Congress gave BATFE full authority to regulate, but there are no specific published regulations defining exactly what constitutes an "igniter". The BATFE agents have offered various NAR members different interpretations of what kinds of igniters are subject to their record-keeping and magazine-storage requirements, and interpretations of what these requirements are. If you hold an LEUP and are visited by a BATFE agent who raises this subject, please ask them for a definition of what characteristics they have been told constitute a "regulated" igniter vs one that is not regulated, and send me a report at president at nar.org Be safe, have fun, and pay forward. Trip Barber NAR 4322 NAR President From fred.azinger at intel.com Tue Nov 10 09:54:32 2009 From: fred.azinger at intel.com (Azinger, Fred) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:54:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: <4AF92150.2070802@comcast.net> References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <66886154474f250f3fe951e40069ab15.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <4AF92150.2070802@comcast.net> Message-ID: The new market for Super-Caps is LED-based cell-phone flashes. The voltage of the Super-Cap at 3.3V or 5V are a pretty close match to the forward voltage of a bright white LED used instead of the old-school flash tube and its attendant high voltage. Their use as a current source for pyro charges might work ok from a theoretical, but unless you stack them for higher voltage, you could get burned if the altimeter's output FET's are not low-voltage "friendly." I've looked at them for a power source in staging electronics to address a fault mode....if the output shorts (as in the match fuses shut with a hard short) the Super-Cap will take the short better than a LiPoly... The LED flash controllers IC that are coming out are interesting. Unfortunately most top out at 1A otherwise the would make very nice current-pulse shaping circuits that would allow a more ideal waveform for IR heating of the bridge material in igniters. When these start hitting 5-10A they will be ideal -- blasting out a controlled current pulse from a logic trigger. Overall -- I'd stick to 9V batteries....cheap, long-shelf-life (no self-discharge) and conveniently self-limiting at about 4A which is prefect unless you want to light a cluster of airstarts... Only if you need more than 4A, need to drop every gram, or flying cold would I consider other power source. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Steve Tarr Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:16 AM To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Capacitors There are some newer supercaps designed specifically as battery replacements. They have a much lower internal resistance and better surge ratings than the old parts, but still not really enough to handle the near-short-circuit of an igniter or ematch. The voltage rating is a problem, too. Must supercaps are rated at 3.3V or less. Lots of energy available, but not capable of powering an altimeter designed around 5V circuitry. Microprocessors that will run off 3.3V or less are pretty common, but the analog circuitry around the sensors often needs a little more headroom. If you're using a FET to drive the output, you'll likely need 4.5V or more to drive the gate, as well. Cell phones and the like get around some of these problems by using complex power-control circuits with switchable DC-DC converters and independent power control of each part of the circuit. The parts are available, and not all that expensive, but they're not easy to work with, especially if you're trying to build something a little different than what the chip manufacturer intended. -ST kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com wrote: > Ah, thanks. I haven't used them and was wondering if maybe they might be > worth trying. > > Way back when flashbulbs were considered a standard ignition method I know > electrolytic capacitors were sometimes used instead of batteries, usually > in combination with now strongly discouraged mercury switches. But total > energy storage was small. So it seemed maybe supercaps might be worth a > look now. But they'd have to have both large energy storage plus the > ability to provide short high current pulses. Guess not. > +McG+ > > >> From my limited experience with Super Caps (Wireless sensors for intrusion >> panels) they are relatively low current at a given voltage. great for >> something that does not take a surge to run but a constant voltage and >> current. I had thought about this as well but it takes less than a second >> to discharge a super cap with a short created with 22 gauge wire and I >> rarely see a spark when done this. So Bottom Line I don't think they have >> the current capability on the ones that would be of a similar size and >> weight. >> >> R >> >>> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:53:47 -0800 >>> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors >>> >>> Question for the electronics geeks out there that's been bugging me for >>> a >>> while: >>> >>> Why are rocketeers not now using supercaps instead of batteries to power >>> most on-board electronics? >>> >>> With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being >>> great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that >>> recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing >>> batteries. >>> >>> Perhaps some technical detail I'm not aware of? Too fragile? >>> >>> Or maybe the average altimeter doesn't survive enough flights to warrant >>> replacing the battery with a much more expensive supercap? >>> +McG+ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:23:12 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Now that our SLI proposal has been accepted, the kids need some quality advice from the collective brain of "the list". Barring the appearance of any quality advice, we'll happily take whatever we can get. :-) The science project the kids have proposed is to put a big, heavy gyroscope at the liftoff center of mass of the rocket, constrain it to the vertical axis, spin it up on the pad, and measure how effectively it "fights ambient forces that attempt to deviate the trajectory from the vertical". We have sold it as "passive stabilization" instead of "active guidance", since it basically augments the job the fins are already doing to steer it straight up: NASA bought it. We'll fly the rocket full scale, but with the science package inactive, to gather "baseline" tilt data prior to the big launch in Huntsville next April. Then, the rocket will fly with the package spun up for the official SLI flight. We'll have a slight problem selling the "different day, different conditions" angle, but since we're only allowed one flight on SLI day, we'll have to make do with what we have. The kids also plan to model the flight in RockSim using the ambient weather conditions for SLI Launch Day and use that as an additional point of comparison for the effectiveness of the gyro in stabilizing the flight of the rocket. The plan, as it stands, is to place any sensor package in the nosecone. That will give us the maximum possible sensitivity (because of the exaggeration of the tilt along the vertical axis) and keep the extra electronics well away from the deployment electronics down in the avbay. Our new problem is how to measure the "effectiveness" of the package. We've gone around about the merits of different approaches. We have seen all of the following as possibilities: multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package that comes with a nifty software package. All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. Once we figure out the best method to measure the tilt (or lack thereof) during flight, our next challenge will be how to record and log the data, and/or patch it into the planned telemetry feed. Your ideas and assistance is greatly appreciated! Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Tue Nov 10 10:42:09 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:42:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC06@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Wow, the formatting on that blew up somewhere in the middle of the message. Sorry that the breakout of potential sensor packages we've considered got so messy... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:23 AM To: Rockets NW List Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Now that our SLI proposal has been accepted, the kids need some quality advice from the collective brain of "the list". Barring the appearance of any quality advice, we'll happily take whatever we can get. :-) The science project the kids have proposed is to put a big, heavy gyroscope at the liftoff center of mass of the rocket, constrain it to the vertical axis, spin it up on the pad, and measure how effectively it "fights ambient forces that attempt to deviate the trajectory from the vertical". We have sold it as "passive stabilization" instead of "active guidance", since it basically augments the job the fins are already doing to steer it straight up: NASA bought it. We'll fly the rocket full scale, but with the science package inactive, to gather "baseline" tilt data prior to the big launch in Huntsville next April. Then, the rocket will fly with the package spun up for the official SLI flight. We'll have a slight problem selling the "different day, different conditions" angle, but since we're only allowed one flight on SLI day, we'll have to make do with what we have. The kids also plan to model the flight in RockSim using the ambient weather conditions for SLI Launch Day and use that as an additional point of comparison for the effectiveness of the gyro in stabilizing the flight of the rocket. The plan, as it stands, is to place any sensor package in the nosecone. That will give us the maximum possible sensitivity (because of the exaggeration of the tilt along the vertical axis) and keep the extra electronics well away from the deployment electronics down in the avbay. Our new problem is how to measure the "effectiveness" of the package. We've gone around about the merits of different approaches. We have seen all of the following as possibilities: multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package that comes with a nifty software package. All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. Once we figure out the best method to measure the tilt (or lack thereof) during flight, our next challenge will be how to record and log the data, and/or patch it into the planned telemetry feed. Your ideas and assistance is greatly appreciated! Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Tue Nov 10 12:15:49 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:15:49 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Chris Holden Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC07@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Please ping me off list. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Tue Nov 10 12:19:36 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:19:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com From robert.krausert at intel.com Tue Nov 10 14:49:36 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:49:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Peter, Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names before leaving high school. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM To: Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Tue Nov 10 15:02:32 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:02:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Robert, I want so badly for that to be next year's SLI project...you don't even know! Problem #1 is that we've already been "yelled at" this year for our project being too close to an "engineering project" and not close enough to a "science project" (Gee...I thought it was Physics!). NASA's really obsessive about the SLI projects having a SCIENCE payload and making the kids follow the scientific method when analyzing data. A reusable experimental nozzle would be super cool, but not super sciency... Problem #2 is that using anything other than the manufacturer's supplied nozzle makes it a research launch and we can't do that under NAR rules (as I understand them). NASA would have kittens if we even proposed it. We'd be shot down before we even left the ground. Sigh.... If I was actually able to run the program as a class during the school day, instead of as an extracurricular activity, I might be able to make that a neat class project. Another thing to file away for the day that I convince the Powers That Be here at the school to bring my program into the schedule and make it an official class. At that point, I'd only be a Tripoli membership fee away from being able to test it at a research launch.... I like the idea! Let me marinate on that one for a while. :-) Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:50 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names before leaving high school. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM To: Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From robert.krausert at intel.com Tue Nov 10 15:11:53 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:11:53 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> OK. Sorry man. I tried. More sciency... Hmm. What about developing the ability to shut down AP in flight? OK. I'm not sure if I'm sciency enough here. But imagine a shuttle flight going wrong. Having a tank of water or ?? That can flood the chamber to shut down AP might be a life saver. I'm not sure personally how to shut down AP during burn. But think of the ability, and the aspects in aerospace. Only ideas. NASA might like you then... ;-) Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:03 PM To: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Robert, I want so badly for that to be next year's SLI project...you don't even know! Problem #1 is that we've already been "yelled at" this year for our project being too close to an "engineering project" and not close enough to a "science project" (Gee...I thought it was Physics!). NASA's really obsessive about the SLI projects having a SCIENCE payload and making the kids follow the scientific method when analyzing data. A reusable experimental nozzle would be super cool, but not super sciency... Problem #2 is that using anything other than the manufacturer's supplied nozzle makes it a research launch and we can't do that under NAR rules (as I understand them). NASA would have kittens if we even proposed it. We'd be shot down before we even left the ground. Sigh.... If I was actually able to run the program as a class during the school day, instead of as an extracurricular activity, I might be able to make that a neat class project. Another thing to file away for the day that I convince the Powers That Be here at the school to bring my program into the schedule and make it an official class. At that point, I'd only be a Tripoli membership fee away from being able to test it at a research launch.... I like the idea! Let me marinate on that one for a while. :-) Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:50 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names before leaving high school. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM To: Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Tue Nov 10 15:18:03 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:18:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0E@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Just to be clear...I loved the Idea...it's just that NASA would likely hate it. I already know how to put out AP...I did it by accident last spring. Just forget to tighten down the aft closure and the AP goes right out when you spit the nozzle. :-P Keep thinking "sciency"... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:12 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... OK. Sorry man. I tried. More sciency... Hmm. What about developing the ability to shut down AP in flight? OK. I'm not sure if I'm sciency enough here. But imagine a shuttle flight going wrong. Having a tank of water or ?? That can flood the chamber to shut down AP might be a life saver. I'm not sure personally how to shut down AP during burn. But think of the ability, and the aspects in aerospace. Only ideas. NASA might like you then... ;-) Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:03 PM To: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Robert, I want so badly for that to be next year's SLI project...you don't even know! Problem #1 is that we've already been "yelled at" this year for our project being too close to an "engineering project" and not close enough to a "science project" (Gee...I thought it was Physics!). NASA's really obsessive about the SLI projects having a SCIENCE payload and making the kids follow the scientific method when analyzing data. A reusable experimental nozzle would be super cool, but not super sciency... Problem #2 is that using anything other than the manufacturer's supplied nozzle makes it a research launch and we can't do that under NAR rules (as I understand them). NASA would have kittens if we even proposed it. We'd be shot down before we even left the ground. Sigh.... If I was actually able to run the program as a class during the school day, instead of as an extracurricular activity, I might be able to make that a neat class project. Another thing to file away for the day that I convince the Powers That Be here at the school to bring my program into the schedule and make it an official class. At that point, I'd only be a Tripoli membership fee away from being able to test it at a research launch.... I like the idea! Let me marinate on that one for a while. :-) Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:50 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names before leaving high school. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM To: Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From robert.krausert at intel.com Tue Nov 10 15:21:31 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:21:31 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F71@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Peter, OK, one more, just in case. Reduce drag ratio and determine the method to calcuate how. Design a rocket with extremely low drag, break mach with a "E" and break mach 2 on a "G." There you go. A challenge, drag relatioship knowledge, and they'd likely set records. They'd be forced to make better and better fin designs, shapes, etc that have the best airflow and lift properties. Plus they'd be forced to find methods of launching without a lug or button. More and more. The SLI question can be, how low can drag ratio go. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:12 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... OK. Sorry man. I tried. More sciency... Hmm. What about developing the ability to shut down AP in flight? OK. I'm not sure if I'm sciency enough here. But imagine a shuttle flight going wrong. Having a tank of water or ?? That can flood the chamber to shut down AP might be a life saver. I'm not sure personally how to shut down AP during burn. But think of the ability, and the aspects in aerospace. Only ideas. NASA might like you then... ;-) Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:03 PM To: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Robert, I want so badly for that to be next year's SLI project...you don't even know! Problem #1 is that we've already been "yelled at" this year for our project being too close to an "engineering project" and not close enough to a "science project" (Gee...I thought it was Physics!). NASA's really obsessive about the SLI projects having a SCIENCE payload and making the kids follow the scientific method when analyzing data. A reusable experimental nozzle would be super cool, but not super sciency... Problem #2 is that using anything other than the manufacturer's supplied nozzle makes it a research launch and we can't do that under NAR rules (as I understand them). NASA would have kittens if we even proposed it. We'd be shot down before we even left the ground. Sigh.... If I was actually able to run the program as a class during the school day, instead of as an extracurricular activity, I might be able to make that a neat class project. Another thing to file away for the day that I convince the Powers That Be here at the school to bring my program into the schedule and make it an official class. At that point, I'd only be a Tripoli membership fee away from being able to test it at a research launch.... I like the idea! Let me marinate on that one for a while. :-) Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:50 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names before leaving high school. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM To: Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Tue Nov 10 15:27:16 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:27:16 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F71@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F71@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC10@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Let me modify your challenge, since another one of the SLI rules (there are a lot of them) is "no mach busters". Since the target altitude is set at 5280 feet, make it "How low an impulse can you get there with". Easy to hit with an I or J, but if you want to get there with an H or a G, you need to really reduce drag a lot. Now try to get there on an F. Need to reduce drag even more. Etc...etc...etc.... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:22 PM To: Krausert, Robert; Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, OK, one more, just in case. Reduce drag ratio and determine the method to calcuate how. Design a rocket with extremely low drag, break mach with a "E" and break mach 2 on a "G." There you go. A challenge, drag relatioship knowledge, and they'd likely set records. They'd be forced to make better and better fin designs, shapes, etc that have the best airflow and lift properties. Plus they'd be forced to find methods of launching without a lug or button. More and more. The SLI question can be, how low can drag ratio go. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:12 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... OK. Sorry man. I tried. More sciency... Hmm. What about developing the ability to shut down AP in flight? OK. I'm not sure if I'm sciency enough here. But imagine a shuttle flight going wrong. Having a tank of water or ?? That can flood the chamber to shut down AP might be a life saver. I'm not sure personally how to shut down AP during burn. But think of the ability, and the aspects in aerospace. Only ideas. NASA might like you then... ;-) Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:03 PM To: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Robert, I want so badly for that to be next year's SLI project...you don't even know! Problem #1 is that we've already been "yelled at" this year for our project being too close to an "engineering project" and not close enough to a "science project" (Gee...I thought it was Physics!). NASA's really obsessive about the SLI projects having a SCIENCE payload and making the kids follow the scientific method when analyzing data. A reusable experimental nozzle would be super cool, but not super sciency... Problem #2 is that using anything other than the manufacturer's supplied nozzle makes it a research launch and we can't do that under NAR rules (as I understand them). NASA would have kittens if we even proposed it. We'd be shot down before we even left the ground. Sigh.... If I was actually able to run the program as a class during the school day, instead of as an extracurricular activity, I might be able to make that a neat class project. Another thing to file away for the day that I convince the Powers That Be here at the school to bring my program into the schedule and make it an official class. At that point, I'd only be a Tripoli membership fee away from being able to test it at a research launch.... I like the idea! Let me marinate on that one for a while. :-) Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:50 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names before leaving high school. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM To: Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From robert.krausert at intel.com Tue Nov 10 15:34:31 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:34:31 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC10@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F71@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC10@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3FB6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Robert, Ok, you might have one. But not mach busters. Hmmm. OK, last one, then I need to get back to work. What if they participated in a "pay it forward" program. As a group develop a presentation/training on rocketry, aerospace, etc. And then they each independently start hitting schools, scout troops, etc and teach/educate about it. Set a goal that "zyx" receive this training. Think of how many youth they'd inspire into rocketry, aerospace? Goal like 100 or 200 youth get it. Of those, you might hook a few. Plus it's very NASA-ish. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:27 PM To: Krausert, Robert Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Let me modify your challenge, since another one of the SLI rules (there are a lot of them) is "no mach busters". Since the target altitude is set at 5280 feet, make it "How low an impulse can you get there with". Easy to hit with an I or J, but if you want to get there with an H or a G, you need to really reduce drag a lot. Now try to get there on an F. Need to reduce drag even more. Etc...etc...etc.... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:22 PM To: Krausert, Robert; Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, OK, one more, just in case. Reduce drag ratio and determine the method to calcuate how. Design a rocket with extremely low drag, break mach with a "E" and break mach 2 on a "G." There you go. A challenge, drag relatioship knowledge, and they'd likely set records. They'd be forced to make better and better fin designs, shapes, etc that have the best airflow and lift properties. Plus they'd be forced to find methods of launching without a lug or button. More and more. The SLI question can be, how low can drag ratio go. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:12 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... OK. Sorry man. I tried. More sciency... Hmm. What about developing the ability to shut down AP in flight? OK. I'm not sure if I'm sciency enough here. But imagine a shuttle flight going wrong. Having a tank of water or ?? That can flood the chamber to shut down AP might be a life saver. I'm not sure personally how to shut down AP during burn. But think of the ability, and the aspects in aerospace. Only ideas. NASA might like you then... ;-) Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:03 PM To: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Robert, I want so badly for that to be next year's SLI project...you don't even know! Problem #1 is that we've already been "yelled at" this year for our project being too close to an "engineering project" and not close enough to a "science project" (Gee...I thought it was Physics!). NASA's really obsessive about the SLI projects having a SCIENCE payload and making the kids follow the scientific method when analyzing data. A reusable experimental nozzle would be super cool, but not super sciency... Problem #2 is that using anything other than the manufacturer's supplied nozzle makes it a research launch and we can't do that under NAR rules (as I understand them). NASA would have kittens if we even proposed it. We'd be shot down before we even left the ground. Sigh.... If I was actually able to run the program as a class during the school day, instead of as an extracurricular activity, I might be able to make that a neat class project. Another thing to file away for the day that I convince the Powers That Be here at the school to bring my program into the schedule and make it an official class. At that point, I'd only be a Tripoli membership fee away from being able to test it at a research launch.... I like the idea! Let me marinate on that one for a while. :-) Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:50 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names before leaving high school. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM To: Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Tue Nov 10 16:18:14 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:18:14 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F71@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC10@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3FB6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300325@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> You're right...Educational Outreach so NASA-ish that it's already a requirement of the SLI program. You nailed that one on the head! Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tue 11/10/2009 3:34 PM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Robert, Ok, you might have one. But not mach busters. Hmmm. OK, last one, then I need to get back to work. What if they participated in a "pay it forward" program. As a group develop a presentation/training on rocketry, aerospace, etc. And then they each independently start hitting schools, scout troops, etc and teach/educate about it. Set a goal that "zyx" receive this training. Think of how many youth they'd inspire into rocketry, aerospace? Goal like 100 or 200 youth get it. Of those, you might hook a few. Plus it's very NASA-ish. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:27 PM To: Krausert, Robert Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Let me modify your challenge, since another one of the SLI rules (there are a lot of them) is "no mach busters". Since the target altitude is set at 5280 feet, make it "How low an impulse can you get there with". Easy to hit with an I or J, but if you want to get there with an H or a G, you need to really reduce drag a lot. Now try to get there on an F. Need to reduce drag even more. Etc...etc...etc.... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:22 PM To: Krausert, Robert; Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, OK, one more, just in case. Reduce drag ratio and determine the method to calcuate how. Design a rocket with extremely low drag, break mach with a "E" and break mach 2 on a "G." There you go. A challenge, drag relatioship knowledge, and they'd likely set records. They'd be forced to make better and better fin designs, shapes, etc that have the best airflow and lift properties. Plus they'd be forced to find methods of launching without a lug or button. More and more. The SLI question can be, how low can drag ratio go. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:12 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... OK. Sorry man. I tried. More sciency... Hmm. What about developing the ability to shut down AP in flight? OK. I'm not sure if I'm sciency enough here. But imagine a shuttle flight going wrong. Having a tank of water or ?? That can flood the chamber to shut down AP might be a life saver. I'm not sure personally how to shut down AP during burn. But think of the ability, and the aspects in aerospace. Only ideas. NASA might like you then... ;-) Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:03 PM To: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Robert, I want so badly for that to be next year's SLI project...you don't even know! Problem #1 is that we've already been "yelled at" this year for our project being too close to an "engineering project" and not close enough to a "science project" (Gee...I thought it was Physics!). NASA's really obsessive about the SLI projects having a SCIENCE payload and making the kids follow the scientific method when analyzing data. A reusable experimental nozzle would be super cool, but not super sciency... Problem #2 is that using anything other than the manufacturer's supplied nozzle makes it a research launch and we can't do that under NAR rules (as I understand them). NASA would have kittens if we even proposed it. We'd be shot down before we even left the ground. Sigh.... If I was actually able to run the program as a class during the school day, instead of as an extracurricular activity, I might be able to make that a neat class project. Another thing to file away for the day that I convince the Powers That Be here at the school to bring my program into the schedule and make it an official class. At that point, I'd only be a Tripoli membership fee away from being able to test it at a research launch.... I like the idea! Let me marinate on that one for a while. :-) Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:50 PM To: Schurke, Peter; Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Peter, Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names before leaving high school. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM To: Keith Packard Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM To: Schurke, Peter Cc: Rockets NW List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 2009: > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > that comes with a nifty software package. > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his flights. -- keith.packard at intel.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 16:41:21 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:41:21 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300325@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC04@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <1257879848-sup-9424@keithp.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC08@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3EE1@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC0D@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F4A@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3F71@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC10@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E45CB3FB6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300325@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: If you want to shut down AP just open the chamber. It will stop burning when the pressure is released. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Schurke, Peter < pmschurke at seattleschools.org> wrote: > You're right...Educational Outreach so NASA-ish that it's already a > requirement of the SLI program. You nailed that one on the head! > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St. > Seattle, WA 98133 > > ________________________________ > > From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] > Sent: Tue 11/10/2009 3:34 PM > To: Schurke, Peter > Cc: Rockets NW List > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... > > > > Robert, > Ok, you might have one. But not mach busters. Hmmm. > > OK, last one, then I need to get back to work. What if they participated in > a "pay it forward" program. As a group develop a presentation/training on > rocketry, aerospace, etc. And then they each independently start hitting > schools, scout troops, etc and teach/educate about it. Set a goal that "zyx" > receive this training. Think of how many youth they'd inspire into rocketry, > aerospace? Goal like 100 or 200 youth get it. Of those, you might hook a > few. Plus it's very NASA-ish. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:27 PM > To: Krausert, Robert > Cc: Rockets NW List > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... > > Let me modify your challenge, since another one of the SLI rules (there > are a lot of them) is "no mach busters". > > Since the target altitude is set at 5280 feet, make it "How low an > impulse can you get there with". Easy to hit with an I or J, but if you > want to get there with an H or a G, you need to really reduce drag a > lot. Now try to get there on an F. Need to reduce drag even more. > Etc...etc...etc.... > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA 98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:22 PM > To: Krausert, Robert; Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... > > Peter, > > OK, one more, just in case. Reduce drag ratio and determine the method > to calcuate how. Design a rocket with extremely low drag, break mach > with a "E" and break mach 2 on a "G." There you go. A challenge, drag > relatioship knowledge, and they'd likely set records. They'd be forced > to make better and better fin designs, shapes, etc that have the best > airflow and lift properties. Plus they'd be forced to find methods of > launching without a lug or button. More and more. The SLI question can > be, how low can drag ratio go. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:12 PM > To: Schurke, Peter; Rockets NW List > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... > > OK. Sorry man. I tried. More sciency... Hmm. What about developing the > ability to shut down AP in flight? OK. I'm not sure if I'm sciency > enough here. But imagine a shuttle flight going wrong. Having a tank of > water or ?? That can flood the chamber to shut down AP might be a life > saver. I'm not sure personally how to shut down AP during burn. But > think of the ability, and the aspects in aerospace. Only ideas. NASA > might like you then... ;-) > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:03 PM > To: Rockets NW List > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... > > > Robert, I want so badly for that to be next year's SLI project...you > don't even know! > > Problem #1 is that we've already been "yelled at" this year for our > project being too close to an "engineering project" and not close enough > to a "science project" (Gee...I thought it was Physics!). NASA's really > obsessive about the SLI projects having a SCIENCE payload and making the > kids follow the scientific method when analyzing data. A reusable > experimental nozzle would be super cool, but not super sciency... > > Problem #2 is that using anything other than the manufacturer's supplied > nozzle makes it a research launch and we can't do that under NAR rules > (as I understand them). NASA would have kittens if we even proposed it. > We'd be shot down before we even left the ground. > > Sigh.... > > If I was actually able to run the program as a class during the school > day, instead of as an extracurricular activity, I might be able to make > that a neat class project. Another thing to file away for the day that > I convince the Powers That Be here at the school to bring my program > into the schedule and make it an official class. At that point, I'd > only be a Tripoli membership fee away from being able to test it at a > research launch.... > > I like the idea! Let me marinate on that one for a while. :-) > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace > Sciences Academy Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA 98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Krausert, Robert [mailto:robert.krausert at intel.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:50 PM > To: Schurke, Peter; Keith Packard > Cc: Rockets NW List > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... > > Peter, > Just an idea. Related to rocketry. Why not ask the class or specific > group to develop and design a reusable nozzle. I realize an Aerotech > nozzle can be used more that once. But we're not supposed to. My thought > is creating a nozzle that would accompany your motor hardware. Sure > there are different openings and throats per size. But to be the ones to > create a design. Think of all those nozzles that go into the trash each > year. Over time, nozzles might no longer exist in reloads, maybe then > it's an extra gasket. But instead a piece of the hardware selection > process. Might be cool for the students to have a patent in their names > before leaving high school. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Schurke, Peter > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:20 PM > To: Keith Packard > Cc: Rockets NW List > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... > > > GPS Telemetry is already planned as a recovery aid and backup to more > "sophisticated" tilt tracking electronics. > > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace > Sciences Academy Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St > Seattle, WA 98133 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Packard [mailto:keithp at keithp.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:12 AM > To: Schurke, Peter > Cc: Rockets NW List > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... > > Excerpts from Schurke, Peter's message of Tue Nov 10 10:23:12 -0800 > 2009: > > > multi-axis accelerometer based measurement multi-axis gyroscope based > > measurement combination style Inertial Measurement Unit based chips a > > really fancy 3-axis magnetometer/3-axis accelerometer compass package > > that comes with a nifty software package. > > > > All of them look like they have the potential to do the job. > > All of the three-axis accelerometers I've seen have a fairly limited max > G in each axis, well under loads seen by a rocket under boost. The > Portland State aerospace guys ended up building a mixed unit with high G > along the Z axis and low G along the X and Y axes. > > And, of course, inertial measurements will tend to drift over time, so > attempts to measure 'deviation from planned course' will be a challenge. > > You might look at using GPS either instead or in addition. You can get > GPS units that report position at up to 10Hz, and relative motion is > fairly accurate. Vern Knowles has some good data collected from his > flights. > > -- > keith.packard at intel.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Tue Nov 10 18:06:03 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:06:03 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Ingraham SLI Team needs your ideas... Message-ID: You've obviously never had a cato that blew out closure(s) and continued to burn. Or had burning grains ejected mid flight that continue burning all the way down. They don't always self extinguish. Mike F. In a message dated 11/10/2009 4:42:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: If you want to shut down AP just open the chamber. It will stop burning when the pressure is released. From vonrang at yahoo.com Tue Nov 10 19:31:33 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:31:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <10685.98640.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> "If you hold an LEUP and are visited by a BATFE agent who raises this subject, please ask them for a definition of what characteristics they have been told constitute a "regulated" igniter vs one that is not regulated, and send me a report at president at nar.org" ? I have?read in the past on one of the rocketry forums of one encounter during an inspection, where the BATFE agent when asked a very similar question, but in this instance it was regarding the difference between an ESTES Solar Igniter and a HPR igniter. ? The agent?when thus questioned?became?angered.?Flustered, the agent said that an ESTES Solar Igniter is not an igniter. ? Does anyone recall this event and?the details of who all the players were? Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Robert Nech wrote: From: Robert Nech Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? To: "NW Rocketry" Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 9:39 AM National Association of Rocketry? ? ??? The Electronic Rocketeer - Issue #17 -? November 2009 an official journal of the NAR Message from the NAR President Dear Rocketeer, I have recently received reports from a few NAR members who hold BATFE LEUP permits (which used to be required to possess high-power rocket motors) that they have been visited by BATFE agents concerning high-power rocket igniters.? Igniters are on the list of "explosive devices" that Congress gave BATFE full authority to regulate, but there are no specific published regulations defining exactly what constitutes an "igniter".? The BATFE agents have offered various NAR members different interpretations of what kinds of igniters are subject to their record-keeping and magazine-storage requirements, and interpretations of what these requirements are.? If you hold an LEUP and are visited by a BATFE agent who raises this subject, please ask them for a definition of what characteristics they have been told constitute a "regulated" igniter vs one that is not regulated, and send me a report at president at nar.org Be safe, have fun, and pay forward. Trip Barber NAR 4322 NAR President ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 10 18:59:31 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:59:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <66886154474f250f3fe951e40069ab15.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <4AF92150.2070802@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1745dba0780ab9f2cde21142d98727c1.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Thanks Fred & Steve. This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Maybe in a few more years! +McG+ > The new market for Super-Caps is LED-based cell-phone flashes. > The voltage of the Super-Cap at 3.3V or 5V are a pretty close match to the > forward voltage of a bright white LED used instead of the old-school flash > tube and its attendant high voltage. > > Their use as a current source for pyro charges might work ok from a > theoretical, but unless you stack them for higher voltage, you could get > burned if the altimeter's output FET's are not low-voltage "friendly." > > I've looked at them for a power source in staging electronics to address a > fault mode....if the output shorts (as in the match fuses shut with a hard > short) the Super-Cap will take the short better than a LiPoly... The LED > flash controllers IC that are coming out are interesting. Unfortunately > most top out at 1A otherwise the would make very nice current-pulse > shaping circuits that would allow a more ideal waveform for IR heating of > the bridge material in igniters. When these start hitting 5-10A they will > be ideal -- blasting out a controlled current pulse from a logic trigger. > > Overall -- I'd stick to 9V batteries....cheap, long-shelf-life (no > self-discharge) and conveniently self-limiting at about 4A which is > prefect unless you want to light a cluster of airstarts... > > Only if you need more than 4A, need to drop every gram, or flying cold > would I consider other power source. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Steve Tarr > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:16 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Capacitors > > There are some newer supercaps designed specifically as battery > replacements. They have a much lower internal resistance and better > surge ratings than the old parts, but still not really enough to > handle the near-short-circuit of an igniter or ematch. > > The voltage rating is a problem, too. Must supercaps are rated at > 3.3V or less. Lots of energy available, but not capable of powering > an altimeter designed around 5V circuitry. Microprocessors that will > run off 3.3V or less are pretty common, but the analog circuitry around > the sensors often needs a little more headroom. If you're using a > FET to drive the output, you'll likely need 4.5V or more to drive the > gate, as well. > > Cell phones and the like get around some of these problems by using > complex power-control circuits with switchable DC-DC converters and > independent power control of each part of the circuit. The parts are > available, and not all that expensive, but they're not easy to work > with, especially if you're trying to build something a little different > than what the chip manufacturer intended. > > -ST > > > kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com wrote: >> Ah, thanks. I haven't used them and was wondering if maybe they might >> be >> worth trying. >> >> Way back when flashbulbs were considered a standard ignition method I >> know >> electrolytic capacitors were sometimes used instead of batteries, >> usually >> in combination with now strongly discouraged mercury switches. But >> total >> energy storage was small. So it seemed maybe supercaps might be worth a >> look now. But they'd have to have both large energy storage plus the >> ability to provide short high current pulses. Guess not. >> +McG+ >> >> >>> From my limited experience with Super Caps (Wireless sensors for >>> intrusion >>> panels) they are relatively low current at a given voltage. great for >>> something that does not take a surge to run but a constant voltage and >>> current. I had thought about this as well but it takes less than a >>> second >>> to discharge a super cap with a short created with 22 gauge wire and I >>> rarely see a spark when done this. So Bottom Line I don't think they >>> have >>> the current capability on the ones that would be of a similar size and >>> weight. >>> >>> R >>> >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:53:47 -0800 >>>> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>>> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors >>>> >>>> Question for the electronics geeks out there that's been bugging me >>>> for >>>> a >>>> while: >>>> >>>> Why are rocketeers not now using supercaps instead of batteries to >>>> power >>>> most on-board electronics? >>>> >>>> With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being >>>> great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that >>>> recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing >>>> batteries. >>>> >>>> Perhaps some technical detail I'm not aware of? Too fragile? >>>> >>>> Or maybe the average altimeter doesn't survive enough flights to >>>> warrant >>>> replacing the battery with a much more expensive supercap? >>>> +McG+ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 10 19:04:23 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:04:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: <1257873859-sup-4122@keithp.com> References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <1257873859-sup-4122@keithp.com> Message-ID: <50ae9c7cf25294041116443d7938a281.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Yes, moving on from the NiCad era to the new age of LiPo was the other option. Gotta go grill my dinosaur steak now... +McG+ > Excerpts from kmcgoffin's message of Mon Nov 09 19:53:47 -0800 2009: > >> With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being >> great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that >> recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing >> batteries. > > I just use LiPo batteries and charge them over USB. Lots of power > storage for the weight. Enough power to fly several times on a single > charge even. > > -- > keith.packard at intel.com > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 10 19:30:21 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:30:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <10685.98640.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <10685.98640.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0fa1f54494b80ec9eefd396c9f53496d.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Convince your club to spend a few kilobucks on a nice pulsed IR laser and tell ATF to go.......well, no need to get into details here. :) It's exactly ATF's own inability to formulate legally binding definitions that we can exploit here. Hey, it's not an "igniter," it's a "thermal pulse generator." After all, ATF would be hard pressed to define "water." And for those who don't have LEUPs, you've never heard of this "igniter" thingy and are very sure you've never had any. Wink. Cough. Staring into my crystal ball I see people in hobby rocketry delving deeply into the intended definition of the word. It may only legally be an "igniter" if it is intended to ignite explosives, which APCP isn't. I've had piezo cigarette lighters. It may have been an electric arc powered by a piezoelectric crystal, the fuel butane and the oxidizer air but hey, the fundamental concept is the same: To use electricity to ignite a mixture of fuel and oxidizer with the intent of using that combustion to ignite other combustible material. How is that NOT an igniter? Go back and read the thread about "quickmud" to see how ATF might be dealt with here. The more they struggle, the stickier it gets for them. +McG+ > National Association of Rocketry > > The Electronic Rocketeer - Issue #17 - November 2009 > an official journal of the NAR > > Message from the NAR President > > Dear Rocketeer, > > I have recently received reports from a few NAR members who hold BATFE > LEUP permits (which used to be required to possess high-power rocket > motors) that they have been visited by BATFE agents concerning high-power > rocket igniters. > > Igniters are on the list of "explosive devices" that Congress gave BATFE > full authority to regulate, but there are no specific published > regulations defining exactly what constitutes an "igniter". The BATFE > agents have offered various NAR members different interpretations of what > kinds of igniters are subject to their record-keeping and magazine-storage > requirements, and interpretations of what these requirements are. > > If you hold an LEUP and are visited by a BATFE agent who raises this > subject, please ask them for a definition of what characteristics they > have been told constitute a "regulated" igniter vs one that is not > regulated, and send me a report at president at nar.org > > Be safe, have fun, and pay forward. > > Trip Barber > NAR 4322 > NAR President > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 20:33:09 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:33:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] [ot] Mother-in-law is installing Windows 7 Message-ID: <69AC1F7F75F145E29F3F7CB55AE504C9@LaptopKrausert> Nothing against Windows 7, but you don't know my mother-in-law. She bought it Costco today, and decided to try installing over Vista on her own. Took 30 minutes to convince her that 64-bit was ok. Can I forward my phone to someone? Please!! She's the same person that called Toyota because the Titanic DVD would not work in the CD player of her Camry. The tech support person had to be quick with the mute switch. She was upset to learn you cannot use a DVD in a CD player. But she was stuck on the soundtrack. If it has a soundtrack in the movie, shouldn't the soundtrack of the DVD play in a CD player. I nearly busted a gut when she told me that people at Toyota know nothing, and ask me how to get the soundtrack to work. She's installing Windows 7; can I forward my phone to you? Cheers, [help me] Robert From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 10 19:50:05 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:50:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I do not recall that incident. However, I believe the standard reasoning is that Estes igniters are packaged with the motors and are considered part of the "motor assembly" thereby making them "not igniters." Oh, those other 'igniters' that Estes sells separately? They are "replacement parts" and thus still not igniters. It's all legal BS that goes way back to the beginning of time, or at least the murky pages of ancient rocketry history. But I seem to recall that Estes igniters are also subject to a tiny limit on the amount of pyrogen they can have--20 or 50 milligrams or something like that. That's why most Solar igniters look so......anorexic. As if they haven't still functioned just fine in many crude bombs, which could just as easily have used flashbulbs or steel wool or a hundred other things to make them go boom. This is what happens when politicians with no understanding of science get great ideas. It all gets really crazy. +McG+ > "If you hold an LEUP and are visited by a BATFE agent who raises this > subject, please ask them for a definition of what characteristics they > have been told constitute a "regulated" igniter vs one that is not > regulated, and send me a report at president at nar.org" > ? > I have?read in the past on one of the rocketry forums of one encounter > during an inspection, where the BATFE agent when asked a very similar > question, but in this instance it was regarding the difference between an > ESTES Solar Igniter and a HPR igniter. > ? > The agent?when thus questioned?became?angered.?Flustered, the agent said > that an ESTES Solar Igniter is not an igniter. > ? > Does anyone recall this event and?the details of who all the players were? > > Sam Grado > TRA L2 > > "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > sales at pvconly.com > http://www.pvconly.com > http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html > http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets > > --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Robert Nech wrote: > > > From: Robert Nech > Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > To: "NW Rocketry" > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 9:39 AM > > > National Association of Rocketry? > ? ??? > The Electronic Rocketeer - Issue #17 -? November 2009 > an official journal of the NAR > > Message from the NAR President > > Dear Rocketeer, > > I have recently received reports from a few NAR members who hold BATFE > LEUP permits (which used to be required to possess high-power rocket > motors) that they have been visited by BATFE agents concerning high-power > rocket igniters.? > > Igniters are on the list of "explosive devices" that Congress gave BATFE > full authority to regulate, but there are no specific published > regulations defining exactly what constitutes an "igniter".? The BATFE > agents have offered various NAR members different interpretations of what > kinds of igniters are subject to their record-keeping and magazine-storage > requirements, and interpretations of what these requirements are.? > > If you hold an LEUP and are visited by a BATFE agent who raises this > subject, please ask them for a definition of what characteristics they > have been told constitute a "regulated" igniter vs one that is not > regulated, and send me a report at president at nar.org > > Be safe, have fun, and pay forward. > > Trip Barber > NAR 4322 > NAR President > > > ? ? ? > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From bjarchow at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 20:46:58 2009 From: bjarchow at gmail.com (Brian Jarchow) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:46:58 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] [ot] Mother-in-law is installing Windows 7 In-Reply-To: <69AC1F7F75F145E29F3F7CB55AE504C9@LaptopKrausert> References: <69AC1F7F75F145E29F3F7CB55AE504C9@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: Let me suggest (206) 389-5800 - they are very accustomed to idiocy. Just kidding - the ATF staff we want to show our appreciation is in DC, not Seattle. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > Nothing against Windows 7, but you don't know my mother-in-law. She bought > it Costco today, and decided to try installing over Vista on her own. Took > 30 minutes to convince her that 64-bit was ok. > > Can I forward my phone to someone? Please!! > > She's the same person that called Toyota because the Titanic DVD would not > work in the CD player of her Camry. The tech support person had to be quick > with the mute switch. She was upset to learn you cannot use a DVD in a CD > player. But she was stuck on the soundtrack. If it has a soundtrack in the > movie, shouldn't the soundtrack of the DVD play in a CD player. I nearly > busted a gut when she told me that people at Toyota know nothing, and ask me > how to get the soundtrack to work. > > She's installing Windows 7; can I forward my phone to you? > > Cheers, [help me] > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From adrian.l.carbine at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 20:28:24 2009 From: adrian.l.carbine at gmail.com (Adrian L Carbine) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:28:24 -1000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: <50ae9c7cf25294041116443d7938a281.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <1b5842a0b002ecc3845eab79adabad08.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <1257873859-sup-4122@keithp.com> <50ae9c7cf25294041116443d7938a281.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: I did some experimenting with some big Supercaps a year ago, and found that even with 10 of them wired in parallel they wouldn't light some igniters. I tried a bunch of different ideas, including phasing several caps in sequence, and captured the data on Fred's high-speed storage scope. Small numbers of caps were able to light low-current igniters and ematches no problem, but there wasn't enough stored charge to sustain the current pulse for the duration needed for Quickbursts and other high-current igniters. I eventually gave up on that approach and used LiPoly batteries -- much better results with smaller weight and size. --- Adrian On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:04 PM, wrote: > Yes, moving on from the NiCad era to the new age of LiPo was the other > option. > > Gotta go grill my dinosaur steak now... > +McG+ > > > > Excerpts from kmcgoffin's message of Mon Nov 09 19:53:47 -0800 2009: > > > >> With the charge capacities on both a volume and weight basis now being > >> great enough for supercaps to power rocket electronics it seems that > >> recharging the supercaps would be preferable to constantly replacing > >> batteries. > > > > I just use LiPo batteries and charge them over USB. Lots of power > > storage for the weight. Enough power to fly several times on a single > > charge even. > > > > -- > > keith.packard at intel.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From tomjerry1 at dishmail.net Tue Nov 10 21:40:59 2009 From: tomjerry1 at dishmail.net (Roy Jenkins) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:40:59 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came from the Seattle head office of BATFE I'll see if I still have it in my files Roy From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 21:53:57 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:53:57 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> Message-ID: <49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert> But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just write Estes on the wires? Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" ; "Robert Nech" Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of clarification > sent to me with a picture of the two different types, > one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a regulated > item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came > from the Seattle head office of BATFE > I'll see if I still have it in my files > > Roy > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 21:57:50 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:57:50 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert> References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> <49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not meet the standards of a low explosive. It would be the same as a regular store bought match. So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate that then it does APCP. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just write > Estes on the wires? > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" > To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" ; > "Robert Nech" > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > > not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of clarification >> sent to me with a picture of the two different types, >> one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a regulated >> item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came >> from the Seattle head office of BATFE >> I'll see if I still have it in my files >> >> Roy >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 22:58:36 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:58:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> <49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <8B601330626D4354BD6E06ABB1EE8113@LaptopKrausert> Chris, Remember before for judgement. October 10th 2007 is date we'll all remember. ATF told us that at the date mentioned all AP above 125 grams is an explosive. Chris, you and I weren't involved during the 9 year battle in court. I'd say avoid using the terms, "they have no right." Because as we learned, they can make their own rules. They do it, can do it, and we must follow the rules. Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly too high current to work. You're building a dual deploy e-bay. You'll need a LEUP for those ematches. My point is they still have us and we need to adhere. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Guenther To: Robert Krausert ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Cc: Roy Jenkins ; Sam Grado ; Robert Nech Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not meet the standards of a low explosive. It would be the same as a regular store bought match. So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate that then it does APCP. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just write Estes on the wires? Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" ; "Robert Nech" Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came from the Seattle head office of BATFE I'll see if I still have it in my files Roy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 10 23:11:36 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] [ot] Mother-in-law is installing Windows 7 In-Reply-To: <69AC1F7F75F145E29F3F7CB55AE504C9@LaptopKrausert> References: <69AC1F7F75F145E29F3F7CB55AE504C9@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: I'll switch to Windows 7 when they pry XP from my cold, dead hands. Windows 7? Oh please god not another Windows! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.... OTOH, I could probably understand your mother-in-law perfectly. Sounds like we speak the same dialect of abacus. LOL NOT volunteering. No, no, no period. Period. So here's how I'm watching my DVD's from Netflix: I use a DVD player on indefinite long-term loan. The output goes into a three-cable bundle from the "line out" jacks. The two audio cables merge into a single cable with an adapter. These two cables then go into the front of my VCR. The VCR merges all the signals into the output which goes to the one and only jack in the back of my 21 inch analog TV. When I play a DVD I first start and then stop a tape in the VCR; I have to do this from the front panel because the remote got, uh, dropped one too many times and this is the only way I can switch the VCR between "VCR out" and "aux out" modes. The VCR must be turned on to mix the "aux in" signals and output it as remodulated television format signal. And then I watch the DVD, usually forgetting that the DVD player is in control and instead pointing its remote control at the VCR... So you see, your mother-in-law and I probably *do* speak the same dialect of abacus! But there is no way in hell I could help her out with Windows 7. +McG+ > Nothing against Windows 7, but you don't know my mother-in-law. She bought > it Costco today, and decided to try installing over Vista on her own. Took > 30 minutes to convince her that 64-bit was ok. > > Can I forward my phone to someone? Please!! > > She's the same person that called Toyota because the Titanic DVD would not > work in the CD player of her Camry. The tech support person had to be > quick with the mute switch. She was upset to learn you cannot use a DVD in > a CD player. But she was stuck on the soundtrack. If it has a soundtrack > in the movie, shouldn't the soundtrack of the DVD play in a CD player. I > nearly busted a gut when she told me that people at Toyota know nothing, > and ask me how to get the soundtrack to work. > > She's installing Windows 7; can I forward my phone to you? > > Cheers, [help me] > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 23:15:23 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:15:23 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <8B601330626D4354BD6E06ABB1EE8113@LaptopKrausert> References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> <49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert> <8B601330626D4354BD6E06ABB1EE8113@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: My reference towards store bought matches was actual store bought matches that you light a cigarette with. In my opinion those are more of an explosive and fire hazard then an ematch. Just my luck I would get denied an LEUP. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > Chris, > Remember before for judgement. October 10th 2007 is date we'll all > remember. ATF told us that at the date mentioned all AP above 125 grams is > an explosive. Chris, you and I weren't involved during the 9 year battle in > court. I'd say avoid using the terms, "they have no right." Because as we > learned, they can make their own rules. They do it, can do it, and we must > follow the rules. > > Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a > LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly too > high current to work. > > You're building a dual deploy e-bay. You'll need a LEUP for those ematches. > My point is they still have us and we need to adhere. > > Cheers, > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Christopher Guenther > *To:* Robert Krausert ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > *Cc:* Roy Jenkins ; Sam Grado ; Robert > Nech > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:57 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not > meet the standards of a low explosive. It would be the same as a regular > store bought match. So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate > that then it does APCP. > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert < > lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > >> But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just write >> Estes on the wires? >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" >> To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" ; >> "Robert Nech" >> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? >> >> >> >> not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of clarification >>> sent to me with a picture of the two different types, >>> one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a >>> regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came >>> from the Seattle head office of BATFE >>> I'll see if I still have it in my files >>> >>> Roy >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 00:51:21 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:51:21 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> <49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert> <8B601330626D4354BD6E06ABB1EE8113@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: One question. Are Hot Wire igniters a low explosive? All they are is a wire that shorts and melts to ignite the BP. There is no flammable compound in the igniter itself. I can do the same by crossing 2 wires hooked to a battery. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Christopher Guenther < guentherchristopher at gmail.com> wrote: > My reference towards store bought matches was actual store bought matches > that you light a cigarette with. In my opinion those are more of an > explosive and fire hazard then an ematch. Just my luck I would get denied > an LEUP. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Robert Krausert < > lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Chris, >> Remember before for judgement. October 10th 2007 is date we'll all >> remember. ATF told us that at the date mentioned all AP above 125 grams is >> an explosive. Chris, you and I weren't involved during the 9 year battle in >> court. I'd say avoid using the terms, "they have no right." Because as we >> learned, they can make their own rules. They do it, can do it, and we must >> follow the rules. >> >> Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a >> LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly too >> high current to work. >> >> You're building a dual deploy e-bay. You'll need a LEUP for those >> ematches. My point is they still have us and we need to adhere. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Christopher Guenther >> *To:* Robert Krausert ; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> *Cc:* Roy Jenkins ; Sam Grado; Robert >> Nech >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:57 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? >> >> If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not >> meet the standards of a low explosive. It would be the same as a regular >> store bought match. So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate >> that then it does APCP. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert < >> lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just write >>> Estes on the wires? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Robert >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" >> > >>> To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" < >>> rockets at rocketsnw.com>; "Robert Nech" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? >>> >>> >>> >>> not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of >>>> clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, >>>> one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a >>>> regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came >>>> from the Seattle head office of BATFE >>>> I'll see if I still have it in my files >>>> >>>> Roy >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> > From vonrang at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 04:56:48 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:56:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <8B601330626D4354BD6E06ABB1EE8113@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <116942.32348.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Chris, you also have the option to make?your e-matches?and use them onsite provided you consume all that you make. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Robert Krausert wrote: From: Robert Krausert Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? To: "Christopher Guenther" , rockets at rocketsnw.com Cc: "Sam Grado" Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 12:58 AM Chris, Remember before for judgement. October 10th 2007 is date we'll all remember. ATF told us that at the date mentioned all AP above 125 grams is an explosive. Chris, you and I weren't involved during the 9 year battle in court. I'd say avoid using the terms, "they have no right." Because as we learned, they can make their own rules. They do it, can do it, and we must follow the rules. Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly too high current to work. You're building a dual deploy e-bay. You'll need a LEUP for those ematches. My point is they still have us and we need to adhere. Cheers, Robert ? ----- Original Message ----- ? From: Christopher Guenther ? To: Robert Krausert ; rockets at rocketsnw.com ? Cc: Roy Jenkins ; Sam Grado ; Robert Nech ? Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:57 PM ? Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? ? If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not meet the standards of a low explosive.? It would be the same as a regular store bought match.? So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate that then it does APCP. ? On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: ? ? But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just write Estes on the wires? ? ? Cheers, ? ? Robert ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" ? ? To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" ; "Robert Nech" ? ? Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM ? ? Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? ? ? ? not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, ? ? ? one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came ? ? ? from the Seattle head office of BATFE ? ? ? I'll see if I still have it in my files ? ? ? Roy ? ? ? _______________________________________________ ? ? ? Rockets mailing list ? ? ? Rockets at rocketsnw.com ? ? ? http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? ? _______________________________________________ ? ? Rockets mailing list ? ? Rockets at rocketsnw.com ? ? http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? ??? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Wed Nov 11 07:29:03 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:29:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com><670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700><49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert><8B601330626D4354BD6E06ABB1EE8113@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30032A@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> According to their literature, HotWire ejection canisters are not regulated as sold: however...once the BP is added they become a regulated item. As long as you don't load them until you get to the launch field and you use all the canisters you load by the end of the day, you're good without a LEUP. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Christopher Guenther Sent: Wed 11/11/2009 12:51 AM To: Robert Krausert Cc: Sam Grado; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? One question. Are Hot Wire igniters a low explosive? All they are is a wire that shorts and melts to ignite the BP. There is no flammable compound in the igniter itself. I can do the same by crossing 2 wires hooked to a battery. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Christopher Guenther < guentherchristopher at gmail.com> wrote: > My reference towards store bought matches was actual store bought matches > that you light a cigarette with. In my opinion those are more of an > explosive and fire hazard then an ematch. Just my luck I would get denied > an LEUP. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Robert Krausert < > lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Chris, >> Remember before for judgement. October 10th 2007 is date we'll all >> remember. ATF told us that at the date mentioned all AP above 125 grams is >> an explosive. Chris, you and I weren't involved during the 9 year battle in >> court. I'd say avoid using the terms, "they have no right." Because as we >> learned, they can make their own rules. They do it, can do it, and we must >> follow the rules. >> >> Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a >> LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly too >> high current to work. >> >> You're building a dual deploy e-bay. You'll need a LEUP for those >> ematches. My point is they still have us and we need to adhere. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Christopher Guenther >> *To:* Robert Krausert ; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> *Cc:* Roy Jenkins ; Sam Grado; Robert >> Nech >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:57 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? >> >> If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not >> meet the standards of a low explosive. It would be the same as a regular >> store bought match. So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate >> that then it does APCP. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert < >> lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just write >>> Estes on the wires? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Robert >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" >> > >>> To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" < >>> rockets at rocketsnw.com>; "Robert Nech" >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? >>> >>> >>> >>> not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of >>>> clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, >>>> one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a >>>> regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came >>>> from the Seattle head office of BATFE >>>> I'll see if I still have it in my files >>>> >>>> Roy >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From absworld at cet.com Wed Nov 11 07:48:29 2009 From: absworld at cet.com (Bob & Ann Yanecek) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:48:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> Message-ID: <019001ca62e6$6b0b8e40$4122aac0$@com> My ATF agent specifically requested that I do not store e-matches in my magazine. Also, no paperwork trail is required for e-matches. So, I need my LEUP to purchase the dang things (and I suppose to possess them as well) but I don't see how I might ever need to account for them. Bob Yanecek -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Roy Jenkins Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:41 PM To: Sam Grado; NW Rocketry; Robert Nech Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came from the Seattle head office of BATFE I'll see if I still have it in my files Roy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhadv at pacifier.com Wed Nov 11 08:13:03 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:13:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091111081038.00c1ff48@mail.iinet.com> Might I suggest hybrid layer capacitors. They are rechargeable have high pulse power and a small one charges to 135 mAh. A small one will also throw 4 Amps so more than enough for any igniter or bunch of them. From Mfreptiles at aol.com Wed Nov 11 09:29:23 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:29:23 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? Message-ID: FWIW, the new Quest igniters are essentially a low current e-match rated at 125 ma. all fire current. Unregulated, along with higher current AT first fire igniters and Estes igniters. Not sure how these items are sold unregulated while the ATF says that they need permits and storage. Does anybody know CTI's policy on the e-matches sold with their loads? I believe that the day will come when the ATF will exempt ignition products when used for hobby rocketry. Their enforcement is already inconsistent. Mike F. In a message dated 11/10/2009 10:59:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly too high current to work. From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 10:29:58 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:29:58 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30032A@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> <49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert> <8B601330626D4354BD6E06ABB1EE8113@LaptopKrausert> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30032A@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: So according to Peter and Sam I do not have to have any involvement withe the BATF as long as I either make ematches on site or use any hotwire canister I packed with BP. Is that correct? What about purchasing the materials to make ematches? If I never file with the BATF, make my own ematches and use them on site, or use hotwire canisters on site then I should be in the clear as far as the BATF is concerned? Chris Guenther On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Schurke, Peter < pmschurke at seattleschools.org> wrote: > According to their literature, HotWire ejection canisters are not regulated > as sold: however...once the BP is added they become a regulated item. As > long as you don't load them until you get to the launch field and you use > all the canisters you load by the end of the day, you're good without a > LEUP. > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St. > Seattle, WA 98133 > > ________________________________ > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Wed 11/11/2009 12:51 AM > To: Robert Krausert > Cc: Sam Grado; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > > One question. Are Hot Wire igniters a low explosive? All they are is a > wire that shorts and melts to ignite the BP. There is no flammable > compound > in the igniter itself. I can do the same by crossing 2 wires hooked to a > battery. > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Christopher Guenther < > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> wrote: > > > My reference towards store bought matches was actual store bought matches > > that you light a cigarette with. In my opinion those are more of an > > explosive and fire hazard then an ematch. Just my luck I would get > denied > > an LEUP. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Robert Krausert < > > lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Chris, > >> Remember before for judgement. October 10th 2007 is date we'll all > >> remember. ATF told us that at the date mentioned all AP above 125 grams > is > >> an explosive. Chris, you and I weren't involved during the 9 year battle > in > >> court. I'd say avoid using the terms, "they have no right." Because as > we > >> learned, they can make their own rules. They do it, can do it, and we > must > >> follow the rules. > >> > >> Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a > >> LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly > too > >> high current to work. > >> > >> You're building a dual deploy e-bay. You'll need a LEUP for those > >> ematches. My point is they still have us and we need to adhere. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Robert > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> *From:* Christopher Guenther > >> *To:* Robert Krausert ; > rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> *Cc:* Roy Jenkins ; Sam Grado< > vonrang at yahoo.com>; Robert > >> Nech > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:57 PM > >> *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > >> > >> If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not > >> meet the standards of a low explosive. It would be the same as a > regular > >> store bought match. So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate > >> that then it does APCP. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert < > >> lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just > write > >>> Estes on the wires? > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Robert > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" < > tomjerry1 at dishmail.net > >>> > > >>> To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" < > >>> rockets at rocketsnw.com>; "Robert Nech" > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of > >>>> clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, > >>>> one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a > >>>> regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came > >>>> from the Seattle head office of BATFE > >>>> I'll see if I still have it in my files > >>>> > >>>> Roy > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Rockets mailing list > >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Rockets mailing list > >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > From greg at blastzone.com Wed Nov 11 10:55:24 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:55:24 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: References: <37732.45396.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <670AB76EEF5C4FF995A3B7764C72CB95@roy4700> <49D04E577C0342E3AF5B8FF1CC63E9C3@LaptopKrausert> <8B601330626D4354BD6E06ABB1EE8113@LaptopKrausert> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30032A@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <23e801ca6300$87708ad0$9651a070$@com> Don't contact the atf. Don't file anything with the atf. Don't ask the atf for anything. There. You're covered. :) > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:30 AM > To: Schurke, Peter > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > So according to Peter and Sam I do not have to have any involvement withe > the BATF as long as I either make ematches on site or use any hotwire > canister I packed with BP. Is that correct? What about purchasing the > materials to make ematches? If I never file with the BATF, make my own > ematches and use them on site, or use hotwire canisters on site then I > should be in the clear as far as the BATF is concerned? > > Chris Guenther > > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Schurke, Peter < > pmschurke at seattleschools.org> wrote: > > > According to their literature, HotWire ejection canisters are not regulated > > as sold: however...once the BP is added they become a regulated item. As > > long as you don't load them until you get to the launch field and you use > > all the canisters you load by the end of the day, you're good without a > > LEUP. > > > > Peter Schurke > > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > > Ingraham High School > > 1819 N 135th St. > > Seattle, WA 98133 > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Christopher Guenther > > Sent: Wed 11/11/2009 12:51 AM > > To: Robert Krausert > > Cc: Sam Grado; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > > > > > > One question. Are Hot Wire igniters a low explosive? All they are is a > > wire that shorts and melts to ignite the BP. There is no flammable > > compound > > in the igniter itself. I can do the same by crossing 2 wires hooked to a > > battery. > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Christopher Guenther < > > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > My reference towards store bought matches was actual store bought matches > > > that you light a cigarette with. In my opinion those are more of an > > > explosive and fire hazard then an ematch. Just my luck I would get > > denied > > > an LEUP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Robert Krausert < > > > lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Chris, > > >> Remember before for judgement. October 10th 2007 is date we'll all > > >> remember. ATF told us that at the date mentioned all AP above 125 grams > > is > > >> an explosive. Chris, you and I weren't involved during the 9 year battle > > in > > >> court. I'd say avoid using the terms, "they have no right." Because as > > we > > >> learned, they can make their own rules. They do it, can do it, and we > > must > > >> follow the rules. > > >> > > >> Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a > > >> LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly > > too > > >> high current to work. > > >> > > >> You're building a dual deploy e-bay. You'll need a LEUP for those > > >> ematches. My point is they still have us and we need to adhere. > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> Robert > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> *From:* Christopher Guenther > > >> *To:* Robert Krausert ; > > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> *Cc:* Roy Jenkins ; Sam Grado< > > vonrang at yahoo.com>; Robert > > >> Nech > > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:57 PM > > >> *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > >> > > >> If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not > > >> meet the standards of a low explosive. It would be the same as a > > regular > > >> store bought match. So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate > > >> that then it does APCP. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert < > > >> lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >>> But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just > > write > > >>> Estes on the wires? > > >>> > > >>> Cheers, > > >>> Robert > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" < > > tomjerry1 at dishmail.net > > >>> > > > >>> To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" < > > >>> rockets at rocketsnw.com>; "Robert Nech" > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM > > >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of > > >>>> clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, > > >>>> one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a > > >>>> regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came > > >>>> from the Seattle head office of BATFE > > >>>> I'll see if I still have it in my files > > >>>> > > >>>> Roy > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Rockets mailing list > > >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Rockets mailing list > > >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From vonrang at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 11:17:03 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:17:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? Message-ID: <231425.10519.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Yes. No problems buying shooters wire, or hot head tips, or nichrome. No problem buying FFFFg?BP. ? Follow the previously posted?advice on taking a small quantity of BP to the launch (35mm film can). Bring your e-match kit and recovery supplies as well. ? Work in a safe manner, in a designated safe area during the launch. ? Mix small quantities per the instructions supplied?with your igniters & e-matches kits. ? Use all igniters & e-matches that you make. Safely destroy any excess you may have before you leave. ? Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Greg Deputy wrote: From: Greg Deputy Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? To: Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 12:55 PM Don't contact the atf.? Don't file anything with the atf.? Don't ask the atf for anything.? There.? You're covered.? :) > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:30 AM > To: Schurke, Peter > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > So according to Peter and Sam I do not have to have any involvement withe > the BATF as long as I either make ematches on site or use any hotwire > canister I packed with BP.? Is that correct?? What about purchasing the > materials to make ematches?? If I never file with the BATF, make my own > ematches and use them on site, or use hotwire canisters on site then I > should be in the clear as far as the BATF is concerned? > > Chris Guenther > > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Schurke, Peter < > pmschurke at seattleschools.org> wrote: > > > According to their literature, HotWire ejection canisters are not regulated > > as sold:? however...once the BP is added they become a regulated item. As > > long as you don't load them until you get to the launch field and you use > > all the canisters you load by the end of the day, you're good without a > > LEUP. > > > > Peter Schurke > > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > > Ingraham High School > > 1819 N 135th St. > > Seattle, WA? 98133 > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Christopher Guenther > > Sent: Wed 11/11/2009 12:51 AM > > To: Robert Krausert > > Cc: Sam Grado; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > > > > > > One question.? Are Hot Wire igniters a low explosive?? All they are is a > > wire that shorts and melts to ignite the BP.? There is no flammable > > compound > > in the igniter itself.? I can do the same by crossing 2 wires hooked to a > > battery. > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Christopher Guenther < > > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > My reference towards store bought matches was actual store bought matches > > > that you light a cigarette with.? In my opinion those are more of an > > > explosive and fire hazard then an ematch.? Just my luck I would get > > denied > > > an LEUP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Robert Krausert < > > > lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >>? Chris, > > >> Remember before for judgement. October 10th 2007 is date we'll all > > >> remember. ATF told us that at the date mentioned all AP above 125 grams > > is > > >> an explosive. Chris, you and I weren't involved during the 9 year battle > > in > > >> court. I'd say avoid using the terms, "they have no right." Because as > > we > > >> learned, they can make their own rules. They do it, can do it, and we > > must > > >> follow the rules. > > >> > > >> Store bought match doesn't exist. Based on regulations, you must have a > > >> LEUP to purchase ematches. Required for dual deploy. Ignitors are mostly > > too > > >> high current to work. > > >> > > >> You're building a dual deploy e-bay. You'll need a LEUP for those > > >> ematches. My point is they still have us and we need to adhere. > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> Robert > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>? *From:* Christopher Guenther > > >> *To:* Robert Krausert ; > > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> *Cc:* Roy Jenkins ; Sam Grado< > > vonrang at yahoo.com>; Robert > > >> Nech > > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:57 PM > > >> *Subject:* Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > >> > > >> If one were to test the burn time of an igniter I would bet it does not > > >> meet the standards of a low explosive.? It would be the same as a > > regular > > >> store bought match.? So in my opinion BATF has no more right to regulate > > >> that then it does APCP. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Robert Krausert < > > >> lawndart.robert at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >>> But what if it's sold to you without a LEUP used. Shouls they just > > write > > >>> Estes on the wires? > > >>> > > >>> Cheers, > > >>> Robert > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Jenkins" < > > tomjerry1 at dishmail.net > > >>> > > > >>> To: "Sam Grado" ; "NW Rocketry" < > > >>> rockets at rocketsnw.com>; "Robert Nech" > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:40 PM > > >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> not sure about that incident but I had an official letter of > > >>>> clarification sent to me with a picture of the two different types, > > >>>> one an Estes igniter and the other an e-match, the later being a > > >>>> regulated item needing a LEUP to purchase. this letter came > > >>>> from the Seattle head office of BATFE > > >>>> I'll see if I still have it in my files > > >>>> > > >>>> Roy > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Rockets mailing list > > >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Rockets mailing list > > >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From carl20320 at msn.com Wed Nov 11 11:26:01 2009 From: carl20320 at msn.com (Carl Degner) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:26:01 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <231425.10519.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <231425.10519.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Except perhaps finding a place that sells it local to you unless you want to buy 5 pounds or more. My local source quit selling it after their 2008 ATF inspection. They got tired of the record keeping for so little sales. > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:17:03 -0800 > From: vonrang at yahoo.com > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > ... No problem buying FFFFg BP. > From fred.azinger at intel.com Wed Nov 11 11:28:15 2009 From: fred.azinger at intel.com (Azinger, Fred) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:28:15 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: References: <231425.10519.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So.....easy.....get 5 pounds!!! While you can! -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Carl Degner Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:26 AM To: Rockets NW list Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? Except perhaps finding a place that sells it local to you unless you want to buy 5 pounds or more. My local source quit selling it after their 2008 ATF inspection. They got tired of the record keeping for so little sales. > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:17:03 -0800 > From: vonrang at yahoo.com > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > ... No problem buying FFFFg BP. > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 11:42:49 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:42:49 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: References: <231425.10519.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For anyone in the Northwest who wants ematch kits and be able support locally I suggest you go to http://www.newtons3rdrocketry.com They are Local to the Portland Oregon area. On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Azinger, Fred wrote: > So.....easy.....get 5 pounds!!! While you can! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Carl Degner > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:26 AM > To: Rockets NW list > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > Except perhaps finding a place that sells it local to you unless you want > to buy 5 pounds or more. My local source quit selling it after their 2008 > ATF inspection. They got tired of the record keeping for so little sales. > > > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:17:03 -0800 > > From: vonrang at yahoo.com > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > > > > ... No problem buying FFFFg BP. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From vonrang at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 12:59:47 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:59:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <448617.30314.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://www.grafs.com/powders/3522? ? GOEX FFFFg Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Carl Degner wrote: From: Carl Degner Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? To: "Rockets NW list" Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 1:26 PM Except perhaps finding a place that sells it local to you unless you want to buy 5 pounds or more.? My local source quit selling it after their 2008 ATF inspection.? They got tired of the record keeping for so little sales. > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:17:03 -0800 > From: vonrang at yahoo.com > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > ... No problem buying FFFFg BP. >? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 13:06:18 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:06:18 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? In-Reply-To: <448617.30314.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <448617.30314.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I will just get my 4f BP at the mom and pop gun shop down the street. On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Sam Grado wrote: > http://www.grafs.com/powders/3522 > > GOEX FFFFg > > Sam Grado > TRA L2 > > "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! > > sales at pvconly.com > http://www.pvconly.com > http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html > http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets > > --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Carl Degner wrote: > > > From: Carl Degner > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > To: "Rockets NW list" > Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 1:26 PM > > > > Except perhaps finding a place that sells it local to you unless you want > to buy 5 pounds or more. My local source quit selling it after their 2008 > ATF inspection. They got tired of the record keeping for so little sales. > > > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:17:03 -0800 > > From: vonrang at yahoo.com > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] What is an igniter? > > > > > > ... No problem buying FFFFg BP. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From holdencurrency at comcast.net Wed Nov 11 17:36:30 2009 From: holdencurrency at comcast.net (Chris Holden) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:36:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Where do you sign up to get on the email list? Help Message-ID: <633721912.1453941257989790622.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The Northwest Rocketry website has gone under an amazing transformation. Site Looks?awsome, however I've got some people Interested in joining the email list however I can't seem to find the registration page. Can some help? From greg at blastzone.com Wed Nov 11 18:06:45 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:06:45 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Where do you sign up to get on the email list? Help In-Reply-To: <633721912.1453941257989790622.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <633721912.1453941257989790622.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <007801ca633c$c9c5a000$5d50e000$@com> Look at the link/url at the bottom of your message.... > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Chris Holden > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:37 PM > To: Rocket Mailing List > Subject: [RocketsNW] Where do you sign up to get on the email list? Help > > > > The Northwest Rocketry website has gone under an amazing transformation. Site > Looks awsome, however I've got some people Interested in joining the email > list however I can't seem to find the registration page. Can some help? > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From glech at aol.com Wed Nov 11 18:09:02 2009 From: glech at aol.com (Gary Lech) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:09:02 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Where do you sign up to get on the email list? Help In-Reply-To: <633721912.1453941257989790622.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <633721912.1453941257989790622.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CC31543CFDD8B4-301C-58F7@webmail-d031.sysops.aol.com> You're right the new website is amazing. This is the link that I had for the e-mail listserver. Hopefully it still works. I would think it does since it's located at a different server. http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets Cheers from ~ Gary Lech - WA7GL TRA/NAR Be sure to visit http://lech.is-a-geek.net -----Original Message----- From: Chris Holden To: Rocket Mailing List Sent: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 5:36 pm Subject: [RocketsNW] Where do you sign up to get on the email list? Help The Northwest Rocketry website has gone under an amazing transformation. Site ooks awsome, however I've got some people Interested in joining the email list owever I can't seem to find the registration page. Can some help? From krislhull at comcast.net Wed Nov 11 21:55:42 2009 From: krislhull at comcast.net (krislhull at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:55:42 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? Message-ID: <2081691538-1258005368-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-461623327-@bda301.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Just watched the newest episode and was that launch they had a motor failure or an airframe failure? They really did not say... Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 11 22:57:54 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:57:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Capacitors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091111081038.00c1ff48@mail.iinet.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091111081038.00c1ff48@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <54124dc9ae381e2d918661792d035292.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Never heard of them. I'll Google the term. Thanks. +McG+ > Might I suggest hybrid layer capacitors. They are rechargeable have high > pulse power and a small one charges to 135 mAh. A small one will also > throw 4 Amps so more than enough for any igniter or bunch of them. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From patrick at urbancheese.com Wed Nov 11 22:10:05 2009 From: patrick at urbancheese.com (patrick (urban cheese records)) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:10:05 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? In-Reply-To: <2081691538-1258005368-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-461623327-@bda301.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <2081691538-1258005368-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-461623327-@bda301.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <61E9E45CA9E3446A9E43FE3840AE9DFB@redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Before the rocket cleared the launch rod, there were flames shooting out of the forward closure. And it looks like a big hole was burned through the side of the airframe. So yes, it definitely had a CATO of some sort. Not sure why the MB's didn't point that part out. One of them says something like "it was working perfectly and then it lost control". Mythbusters suck at rockets. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:55 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? > Just watched the newest episode and was that launch they had a motor > failure or an airframe failure? They really did not say... > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From bigrockets at verizon.net Thu Nov 12 00:29:05 2009 From: bigrockets at verizon.net (Dave Proffitt) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:29:05 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? In-Reply-To: <2081691538-1258005368-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-461623327-@bda301.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <2081691538-1258005368-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-461623327-@bda301.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <000301ca6372$33eafc20$9bc0f460$@net> I watched that fiasco too. The rocket, if you can call it that, was unstable to begin with. It looked to me like a forward motor seal went away. Did you notice the forward end of the motor, that large bulkhead looking thing they had on the end of it? Grant needs to stop playing the know it all dude and stay away from rockets and motor casings. They didn't even know about using centering rings? How about that bogus square tube mount in the back end of the rocket? There was so much weight aft I was amazed the damn thing even flew as far as it did. Then the rail guides that were welded onto the side of the air frame, and it was made from some sort of large stove pipe looked to me like. Gimme a break here Discovery Channel. The half-assed way they mounted the rail, it's a wonder it didn't pull the launcher up with it. What a joke. Dave Proffitt -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of krislhull at comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:56 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? Just watched the newest episode and was that launch they had a motor failure or an airframe failure? They really did not say... Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From krislhull at comcast.net Thu Nov 12 00:50:57 2009 From: krislhull at comcast.net (krislhull at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:50:57 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? In-Reply-To: <000301ca6372$33eafc20$9bc0f460$@net> References: <2081691538-1258005368-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-461623327-@bda301.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><000301ca6372$33eafc20$9bc0f460$@net> Message-ID: <1043769693-1258015884-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1150012584-@bda301.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I walked into the breakroom at work just in time to see the rocket fizzle in the air, so I did not get any details on how it was built or anything like that. Kris Hull Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Dave Proffitt" Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:29:05 To: OROC List Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? I watched that fiasco too. The rocket, if you can call it that, was unstable to begin with. It looked to me like a forward motor seal went away. Did you notice the forward end of the motor, that large bulkhead looking thing they had on the end of it? Grant needs to stop playing the know it all dude and stay away from rockets and motor casings. They didn't even know about using centering rings? How about that bogus square tube mount in the back end of the rocket? There was so much weight aft I was amazed the damn thing even flew as far as it did. Then the rail guides that were welded onto the side of the air frame, and it was made from some sort of large stove pipe looked to me like. Gimme a break here Discovery Channel. The half-assed way they mounted the rail, it's a wonder it didn't pull the launcher up with it. What a joke. Dave Proffitt -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of krislhull at comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:56 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? Just watched the newest episode and was that launch they had a motor failure or an airframe failure? They really did not say... Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From greg at blastzone.com Thu Nov 12 09:06:37 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:06:37 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Message-ID: <039a01ca63ba$7f191ea0$7d4b5be0$@com> I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy From Mfreptiles at aol.com Thu Nov 12 09:29:53 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:29:53 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Message-ID: Looks awesome! I should hire some of you to redo the Binder Design webstore when I have some money. One thing I happened to notice as that the Brothers site listed that rattlesnakes are native to the area. That is not the case. Snakes don't like volcanic soils/pumice. It gets caught in their scales and dessicates the poor reptile. Mike F. In a message dated 11/12/2009 9:07:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, greg at blastzone.com writes: I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From dmrandall at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 09:37:38 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:37:38 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6bc920e40911120937w4cc4b669je2ba54ff901044a9@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for that clarification Mike. I'll update the page accordingly. Dave On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:29 AM, wrote: > Looks awesome! ?I should hire some of you to redo the Binder Design > webstore when I have some money. > > One thing I happened to notice as that the Brothers site listed that > rattlesnakes are native to the area. ?That is not the case. ?Snakes ?don't like > volcanic soils/pumice. ?It gets caught in their scales and ?dessicates the > poor reptile. > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/12/2009 9:07:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > greg at blastzone.com writes: > > I am ?happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a > new ?web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and > showcase ?what we do! ?While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot > take ?credit for it. ?We've got a super talented and motivated team of > folks > who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this ?new > site. > My heartfelt thanks go out to them. > > So please take a ?moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. > They've done a great ?job! > > Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): > Robert Braibish > Christopher Guenther > Robert Killen > Robert Krausert > Kent ?Newman > Dave Randall > Marty ?Weiser > > > Greg ?Deputy > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets ?mailing ?list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From robert.krausert at intel.com Thu Nov 12 09:42:27 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:42:27 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911120937w4cc4b669je2ba54ff901044a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bc920e40911120937w4cc4b669je2ba54ff901044a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E46080FF3@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Maybe reword it to say, "If you encounter a rattlesnake, he is likely unhappy being on the kitty litter. Be so kind as to pick him up and relocate him to a nicer place to roam." I'm sure he'll thank you in some way. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Dave Randall Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:38 AM To: Mfreptiles at aol.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Thanks for that clarification Mike. I'll update the page accordingly. Dave On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:29 AM, wrote: > Looks awesome! ?I should hire some of you to redo the Binder Design > webstore when I have some money. > > One thing I happened to notice as that the Brothers site listed that > rattlesnakes are native to the area. ?That is not the case. ?Snakes ?don't like > volcanic soils/pumice. ?It gets caught in their scales and ?dessicates the > poor reptile. > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/12/2009 9:07:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > greg at blastzone.com writes: > > I am ?happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a > new ?web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and > showcase ?what we do! ?While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot > take ?credit for it. ?We've got a super talented and motivated team of > folks > who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this ?new > site. > My heartfelt thanks go out to them. > > So please take a ?moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. > They've done a great ?job! > > Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): > Robert Braibish > Christopher Guenther > Robert Killen > Robert Krausert > Kent ?Newman > Dave Randall > Marty ?Weiser > > > Greg ?Deputy > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets ?mailing ?list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From cpovercg at rocketmail.com Thu Nov 12 10:03:28 2009 From: cpovercg at rocketmail.com (Robert Braibish) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:03:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E46080FF3@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <6bc920e40911120937w4cc4b669je2ba54ff901044a9@mail.gmail.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E46080FF3@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <784873.4534.qm@web112916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I can not find the place to post a message.? I'm ?not sure if I have the rigth page or not, I can go to www.northwestrocktry.com but I am not logged in.? when I log in it redirects me to www.rocketsnw.com. Is this supposed to happen?? I remember seeing a "post" link but I am not finding it now... I know that k2 is unavailable today so if this is a problem we will either have to solve it ourselves or wait.... ________________________________ From: "Krausert, Robert" To: Dave Randall ; "Mfreptiles at aol.com" Cc: "rockets at rocketsnw.com" Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 9:42:27 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Maybe reword it to say, "If you encounter a rattlesnake, he is likely unhappy being on the kitty litter. Be so kind as to pick him up and relocate him to a nicer place to roam." I'm sure he'll thank you in some way. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Dave Randall Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:38 AM To: Mfreptiles at aol.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Thanks for that clarification Mike. I'll update the page accordingly. Dave On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:29 AM,? wrote: > Looks awesome! ?I should hire some of you to redo the Binder Design > webstore when I have some money. > > One thing I happened to notice as that the Brothers site listed that > rattlesnakes are native to the area. ?That is not the case. ?Snakes ?don't like > volcanic soils/pumice. ?It gets caught in their scales and ?dessicates the > poor reptile. > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/12/2009 9:07:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > greg at blastzone.com writes: > > I am ?happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a > new ?web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and > showcase ?what we do! ?While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot > take ?credit for it. ?We've got a super talented and motivated team of > folks > who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this ?new > site. > My heartfelt thanks go out to them. > > So please take a ?moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. > They've done a great ?job! > > Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): > Robert Braibish > Christopher Guenther > Robert Killen > Robert Krausert > Kent ?Newman > Dave Randall > Marty ?Weiser > > > Greg ?Deputy > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets ?mailing ?list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From robert.krausert at intel.com Thu Nov 12 10:21:30 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:21:30 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: <784873.4534.qm@web112916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <6bc920e40911120937w4cc4b669je2ba54ff901044a9@mail.gmail.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E46080FF3@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <784873.4534.qm@web112916.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E460810D8@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> This is normal, by design. Cheers, Robert ________________________________ From: Robert Braibish [mailto:cpovercg at rocketmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 10:03 AM To: Krausert, Robert; Dave Randall; Mfreptiles at aol.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 I can not find the place to post a message. I'm not sure if I have the rigth page or not, I can go to www.northwestrocktry.com but I am not logged in. when I log in it redirects me to www.rocketsnw.com. Is this supposed to happen? I remember seeing a "post" link but I am not finding it now... I know that k2 is unavailable today so if this is a problem we will either have to solve it ourselves or wait.... ________________________________ From: "Krausert, Robert" To: Dave Randall ; "Mfreptiles at aol.com" Cc: "rockets at rocketsnw.com" Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 9:42:27 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Maybe reword it to say, "If you encounter a rattlesnake, he is likely unhappy being on the kitty litter. Be so kind as to pick him up and relocate him to a nicer place to roam." I'm sure he'll thank you in some way. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw..com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Dave Randall Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:38 AM To: Mfreptiles at aol.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Thanks for that clarification Mike. I'll update the page accordingly. Dave On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:29 AM, > wrote: > Looks awesome! I should hire some of you to redo the Binder Design > webstore when I have some money. > > One thing I happened to notice as that the Brothers site listed that > rattlesnakes are native to the area. That is not the case. Snakes don't like > volcanic soils/pumice. It gets caught in their scales and dessicates the > poor reptile. > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/12/2009 9:07:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > greg at blastzone.com writes: > > I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a > new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and > showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot > take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of > folks > who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new > site. > My heartfelt thanks go out to them. > > So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. > They've done a great job! > > Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): > Robert Braibish > Christopher Guenther > Robert Killen > Robert Krausert > Kent Newman > Dave Randall > Marty Weiser > > > Greg Deputy > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhadv at pacifier.com Thu Nov 12 10:57:54 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:57:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091112105334.039f8868@mail.iinet.com> >Maybe reword it to say, "If you encounter a rattlesnake, he is likely >unhappy being on the kitty litter. Be so kind as to pick him up and >relocate him to a nicer place to roam." I'm sure he'll thank you in some way. If you're going to do that make sure and put in something like, CAUTION snakes and investment bankers routinely bite victims merely for pleasure. We wouldn't want to get sued you know. From Peter.T.Ekstrom at jci.com Thu Nov 12 11:14:43 2009 From: Peter.T.Ekstrom at jci.com (Peter.T.Ekstrom at jci.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:14:43 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: <039a01ca63ba$7f191ea0$7d4b5be0$@com> Message-ID: Looks AWESOME! Congrats to all that made it happen! Maybe it's time I added to it finally... -- Peter "Greg Deputy" To Sent by: "'Rocket Mailing List'" rockets-bounces at r ocketsnw.com cc Subject 11/12/2009 09:07 [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web AM site 2.0 I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From robert.krausert at intel.com Thu Nov 12 11:50:10 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:50:10 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091112105334.039f8868@mail.iinet.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091112105334.039f8868@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E46081268@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Good catch. Disclaimer necessary. But if you encounter an investment banker on the sage, keep your distance and report the location to the LCO. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bogdanich Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 10:58 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 44 >Maybe reword it to say, "If you encounter a rattlesnake, he is likely >unhappy being on the kitty litter. Be so kind as to pick him up and >relocate him to a nicer place to roam." I'm sure he'll thank you in some way. If you're going to do that make sure and put in something like, CAUTION snakes and investment bankers routinely bite victims merely for pleasure. We wouldn't want to get sued you know. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From vonrang at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 14:47:10 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:47:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Message-ID: <39562.28520.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Great job everyone! ? The new site looks great! Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Greg Deputy wrote: From: Greg Deputy Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "'Rocket Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 AM I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do!? While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it.? We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): ??? Robert Braibish ??? Christopher Guenther ??? Robert Killen ??? Robert Krausert ??? Kent Newman ??? Dave Randall ??? Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:04:28 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:04:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 References: <39562.28520.qm@web52212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sam, When you coming back home? Oregon is a good place. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Grado" To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Great job everyone! The new site looks great! Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Greg Deputy wrote: From: Greg Deputy Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "'Rocket Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 AM I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From vonrang at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 15:31:48 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:31:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <839323.52688.qm@web52202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> It is my plan. Once I have completed my Rockwell training and have a couple years under my belt working with the IT side of production automation controls, I hope to get on with Vestas Wind Technologies. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Robert Krausert wrote: From: Robert Krausert Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "Sam Grado" , rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 5:04 PM Sam, When you coming back home? Oregon is a good place. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Grado" To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Great job everyone! The new site looks great! Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Greg Deputy wrote: From: Greg Deputy Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "'Rocket Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 AM I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From vonrang at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 15:34:46 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:34:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <673780.73762.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> It is very nice here in Bowling Green, KY ?but I do miss the PNW. Fishing here sucks. Nothing but Bass & Catfish.?When I watch videos of flights at Brothers, I do get homesick. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Robert Krausert wrote: From: Robert Krausert Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "Sam Grado" , rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 5:04 PM Sam, When you coming back home? Oregon is a good place. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Grado" To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Great job everyone! The new site looks great! Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Greg Deputy wrote: From: Greg Deputy Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "'Rocket Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 AM I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:40:57 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:40:57 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 References: <673780.73762.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7B901A03B4224400B849F44FF72969F8@LaptopKrausert> Hope to see you home again when the IT work gets you positioned here. I hope your family and the Hornsby family get back here, home, soon. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Sam Grado To: rockets at rocketsnw.com ; Robert Krausert Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 It is very nice here in Bowling Green, KY but I do miss the PNW. Fishing here sucks. Nothing but Bass & Catfish. When I watch videos of flights at Brothers, I do get homesick. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Robert Krausert wrote: From: Robert Krausert Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "Sam Grado" , rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 5:04 PM Sam, When you coming back home? Oregon is a good place. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Grado" To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Great job everyone! The new site looks great! Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Greg Deputy wrote: From: Greg Deputy Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "'Rocket Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 AM I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From bradwr at wrightholdings.com Thu Nov 12 16:20:24 2009 From: bradwr at wrightholdings.com (Brad Wright) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:20:24 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: <039a01ca63ba$7f191ea0$7d4b5be0$@com> References: <039a01ca63ba$7f191ea0$7d4b5be0$@com> Message-ID: <3A117F0D50887C4EAA3B35717ADE209914F1D09C@BL2PRD0102MB015.prod.exchangelabs.com> OUTSTANDING! -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Greg Deputy Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:07 AM To: 'Rocket Mailing List' Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:37:43 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:37:43 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Just got the new sport rocketry magazine Message-ID: I have noticed that I have yet to see any stories or articles of events within the northwest. From appusher at q.com Thu Nov 12 17:25:38 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:25:38 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: <039a01ca63ba$7f191ea0$7d4b5be0$@com> References: <039a01ca63ba$7f191ea0$7d4b5be0$@com> Message-ID: Great job on the new site!!! I like this link the best.... ? get my wife to understand the need to spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on this hobby? Is the linked page vacancy planned or still in developement? :_} Bill at PSP EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > From: greg at blastzone.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:06:37 -0800 > Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 > > I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a > new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and > showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot > take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks > who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. > My heartfelt thanks go out to them. > > So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. > They've done a great job! > > Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): > Robert Braibish > Christopher Guenther > Robert Killen > Robert Krausert > Kent Newman > Dave Randall > Marty Weiser > > > Greg Deputy > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 17:28:03 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:28:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Just got the new sport rocketry magazine References: Message-ID: Because it's NAR. NAR covers mostly East coast. Sometimes here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Just got the new sport rocketry magazine >I have noticed that I have yet to see any stories or articles of events > within the northwest. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 18:06:17 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:06:17 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Just got the new sport rocketry magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess someone like myself might be so inclined to pick up the keyboard and get a few articles out to them on a regular basis. On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > Because it's NAR. NAR covers mostly East coast. Sometimes here. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: [RocketsNW] Just got the new sport rocketry magazine > > > I have noticed that I have yet to see any stories or articles of events >> within the northwest. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> From IBELCHLOUD at aol.com Thu Nov 12 18:53:22 2009 From: IBELCHLOUD at aol.com (IBELCHLOUD at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:53:22 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? Message-ID: I am just glad to see they didn't have Eric Gates "helping" them. At least when it failed they didn't have the "expert" to try and explain it to all the idiot halfbrains who watch the show for the same reason idiot halfbrains watch NASCAR. If they had at the very least contracted out the entire motor assembly the up part might have been successful. Maybe. Probably not though. My biggest complaint is that this show is on Discovery Channel. A channel that is supposed to be about science and learning. At least it used to be. You could turn it on and watch a program about say fighter planes and actually learn something. They also had people's credentials on screen right under their name rather than calling themselves "experts". Lou From IBELCHLOUD at aol.com Thu Nov 12 18:58:54 2009 From: IBELCHLOUD at aol.com (IBELCHLOUD at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:58:54 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Just got the new sport rocketry magazine Message-ID: That's part of it. Another is that people submit those articles. Eric Albrecht did a nice one a few years ago on an October Mansfield launch. You want to see NW stuff? Send in an article sometime. Lou On a personal note, I could really care less about Sport Rocketry. I would like to see that as an option during your renewal. As an option it better come with a price break too obviously. From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Thu Nov 12 19:03:33 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:03:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: <039a01ca63ba$7f191ea0$7d4b5be0$@com> References: <039a01ca63ba$7f191ea0$7d4b5be0$@com> Message-ID: <15955f7a6b27630ec7b9f45f21b91e87.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Looks great! +McG+ > I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a > new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and > showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot > take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of > folks > who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new > site. > My heartfelt thanks go out to them. > > So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. > They've done a great job! > > Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): > Robert Braibish > Christopher Guenther > Robert Killen > Robert Krausert > Kent Newman > Dave Randall > Marty Weiser > > > Greg Deputy > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From cpovercg at rocketmail.com Thu Nov 12 20:14:11 2009 From: cpovercg at rocketmail.com (Robert Braibish) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:14:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <861125.11829.qm@web112914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Speaking?on behalf of the non idiot-half brains who likethe show and/orNASCAR,?I?ll caution those of you inclined to use unwarranted epithets, it may make one think you're egocentric blowhard with an over-inflated perception of the value of their opinion, and we wouldn't want folks to form an erroneous opinion about you because of a few ill-chosen words.? I'm sure we can all agree that when a conversation stoops to name-calling the merit of any given argument or perspective is diminished, and there really is no place for it in this venue. Robert ________________________________ From: "IBELCHLOUD at aol.com" To: krislhull at comcast.net; rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 6:53:22 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? I am just glad to see they didn't have Eric Gates "helping" them.? At least when it failed they didn't have the "expert" to try and explain it to all the idiot halfbrains who watch the show for the same reason idiot halfbrains watch NASCAR.? If they had at the very least contracted out the entire motor assembly the up part might have been successful.? Maybe.? Probably not though.? My biggest complaint is that this show is on Discovery Channel.? A channel that is supposed to be about science and learning.? At least it used to be.? You could turn it on and watch a program about say fighter planes and actually learn something.? They also had people's credentials on screen right under their name rather than calling themselves "experts".? Lou _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone..com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 00:00:07 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system Message-ID: For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely wireless. I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked into some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver combination's at reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this avenue. My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual deployment system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch in place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. I would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I could hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire it to the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from the altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles and I do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now when that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 channel system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage or air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating the need for wires to the LCO table. If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. Make sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off position. Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be hooked into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for the LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that you wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup completely wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could even have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the flight line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The system will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger the channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, and deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. I feel this is a sound idea and am going to TRY to make it a reality. Research it inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops to jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to have NAR and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it would ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I will not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either NAR or TRA. Any input on this is welcome. From arrsales at cox.net Fri Nov 13 04:30:04 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:30:04 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Message-ID: <5481C3FE350B48A8A0DB20440ADF29E9@apcp.local> Good morning everyone, At the request of a current list member, I was asked to join and introduce myself. Most people either know me or know of me in regards to my business and my signature product. This isn't meant to be an advertisement, but rather an open ended request to help answer questions in regards to Blue Tube and or construction with it, and to address the warping issue with the original product. Version 2.0 will be shipping by Thanksgiving and I have generated a lot of web content to help people understand the product's strengths, weaknesses and just be available to help answer questions. Chris Holden at Holden's Hobbies is a relatively new dealer in your neck of the woods and I wanted to make sure he was armed with all the information necessary to be successful. I have all kinds of things I would like to say about it but I am not going to abuse the forum and turn this into a Wal-Mart commercial. :) Your reputation as a group precedes yourself and I look forward to hearing valuable content as well. That's all, nuttin more, nuttin less. :) TGIF! Randy __________________ Randall J. Ejma TRA 9577 L3 arrsales at cox.net www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com From greg at bigredbee.com Fri Nov 13 06:54:49 2009 From: greg at bigredbee.com (Greg Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:54:49 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch is just adding another point of failure. The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch rockets in your face. my .02 -- Greg On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther wrote: > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > wireless. ?This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > things. ?Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely wireless. > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked into > some of the newest in Rc controls. ?Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver combination's at > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this avenue. > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual deployment > system that has an arming key switch. ?I plan to leave the key switch in > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. ?I > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I could > hook up a servo. ?I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel > receiver. ?I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire it to > the dual deployment altimeter. ?This way it can pick up everything from the > altimeter. ?The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles and I > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. ?Now when > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 channel > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage or > air start. ? You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating the > need for wires to the LCO table. > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. ?Make > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off position. > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be hooked > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. ?Wait for the > LCO to announce your rocket. ?At this point you let the LCO know that you > wish to make an announcement. ?You tell everyone you are setup completely > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. ?You could even > have them all go out and check it. ?When every one is back at the flight > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. ?The system > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > status. ?Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. ?When you say launch trigger the > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > heavens. ?The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, and > deployment info. ?It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to TRY to make it a reality. ?Research it > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops to > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. ?I will definitely have to have NAR > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it would > ever be seen in operation at an event. ?After all it is my baby and I will > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either NAR > or TRA. > > Any input on this is welcome. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From arrsales at cox.net Fri Nov 13 07:59:10 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:59:10 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300332@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <5481C3FE350B48A8A0DB20440ADF29E9@apcp.local> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300332@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <6639FDBB49A5460CBF870BEEDF0DC8BE@apcp.local> Hi Peter, Thank you! It's ironic that the "tempest in a teacup" article actually "detracted" from the product when it was designed to "ease" people about it. I've moved about a thousand tubes to dealers and end users all over the country and Europe, and have exchanged about 5. There had been some squeaking by a small percentage of people who knew about it (and we all know how fast bad news travels). I want to run a clean shop, be open, be honest, be transparent and let people know, even if it only affected a few. FWIW, my BT 1.0 rocket hangs long ways in my garage in Tampa FL humidity, and is straight. Everyone already knows there are drawbacks to every airframe material: Phenolic is brittle, fiberglass is heavy, carbon fiber is incredibly expensive, paper is weak, and, lastly, vulcanized fiber is mildly hygroscopic. You work within each material's limitations. So, unless you are building a 2x upscale Mean Machine and flying it in the Everglades in August. Then, this probably isn't the product for you. :) Plus, I'm too lazy and impatient to fiberglass. I just want to use it. It's not as strong as fiberglass, but Blue Tube has gone nearly mach 3, unreinforced, w/o shredding. It started to delaminate, and a fin ripped off, but didn't let loose. Binder Design can give you the details. Funny story.. I launched my 10 foot tall 6 inch diameter 25 pound rocket made w/ Blue Tube 1.0 at the last launch under 98mm L power. It came in w/ no main chute, and hit the ground and "bounced" with no damage. It hit hard enough to break the epoxy bond between the altimeter sled and the brass tubes though! (Video on my site) Regarding a school project educational discount, sounds like fun! Get a hold of Carey at www.huffperformance.com, I'm sure he would love to help and be a part of it, as I am too but I'm not gonna step on his toes. I look forward to reading about it at lunch today. :) I do have some ARR and BT stickers I can send to him to give to you.... Sincerely, Randy -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:12 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Welcome to the list, Randall! I just saw on Monday that BT v2.0 has been released. My students had been considering using BT for their NASA Student Launch Initiative vehicle, but had previously been balking because of the "Tempest in a Teapot" regarding the heat and humidity thing--given that the SLI launch is at Marshall Spaceflight Center in Huntsville, AL. You can read about our project at the rocketsnw.com website if you'd like. Now that the new stuff is coming, they're seriously interested in using the product for their airframe. Is there any chance that you might slide us a discount on the tubes we'd need for our project? Maybe in exchange for prominent advertising space on the rocket and the right to brag about us on your website? Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Fri 11/13/2009 4:30 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Good morning everyone, At the request of a current list member, I was asked to join and introduce myself. Most people either know me or know of me in regards to my business and my signature product. This isn't meant to be an advertisement, but rather an open ended request to help answer questions in regards to Blue Tube and or construction with it, and to address the warping issue with the original product. Version 2.0 will be shipping by Thanksgiving and I have generated a lot of web content to help people understand the product's strengths, weaknesses and just be available to help answer questions. Chris Holden at Holden's Hobbies is a relatively new dealer in your neck of the woods and I wanted to make sure he was armed with all the information necessary to be successful. I have all kinds of things I would like to say about it but I am not going to abuse the forum and turn this into a Wal-Mart commercial. :) Your reputation as a group precedes yourself and I look forward to hearing valuable content as well. That's all, nuttin more, nuttin less. :) TGIF! Randy __________________ Randall J. Ejma TRA 9577 L3 arrsales at cox.net www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From arrsales at cox.net Fri Nov 13 08:43:53 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:43:53 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC19@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <5481C3FE350B48A8A0DB20440ADF29E9@apcp.local><844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300332@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <6639FDBB49A5460CBF870BEEDF0DC8BE@apcp.local> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10942DC19@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <760D21202DF64D39A025176385354793@apcp.local> I am such an idiot. I MEANT CHRIS HOLDEN. I always get Chris and Carey confused. Yes, of course, Chris at Holdens Hobbies. Sorry, I cannot brain today, I have the dumb. ..at least it's Friday. :) -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:17 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 I agree...with the design that the kids are proposing, I wouldn't have been all that worried with BT 1.0. Funny that improving the product to allay people's fears has actually caused some of them to be more fearful... We up here in the Northwest know how stout the stuff is--after all...we have the high priest of extreme acceleration, Mike Fisher, and his 38mm L motors up here! :-) Since we're up here in the upper left corner, I've already pinged Chris Holden about acquiring supplies. It would be more convenient to deal with him than work with Carey all the way across the country. When I finally finish playing phone tag with Chris, I'll tell him that you recommended I go through him (assuming that you agree it'd be easier to deal with the dealer less than 20 miles from our school). Maybe you could send the stickers to Chris instead? Thanks, Randy! Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Hi Peter, Thank you! It's ironic that the "tempest in a teacup" article actually "detracted" from the product when it was designed to "ease" people about it. I've moved about a thousand tubes to dealers and end users all over the country and Europe, and have exchanged about 5. There had been some squeaking by a small percentage of people who knew about it (and we all know how fast bad news travels). I want to run a clean shop, be open, be honest, be transparent and let people know, even if it only affected a few. FWIW, my BT 1.0 rocket hangs long ways in my garage in Tampa FL humidity, and is straight. Everyone already knows there are drawbacks to every airframe material: Phenolic is brittle, fiberglass is heavy, carbon fiber is incredibly expensive, paper is weak, and, lastly, vulcanized fiber is mildly hygroscopic. You work within each material's limitations. So, unless you are building a 2x upscale Mean Machine and flying it in the Everglades in August. Then, this probably isn't the product for you. :) Plus, I'm too lazy and impatient to fiberglass. I just want to use it. It's not as strong as fiberglass, but Blue Tube has gone nearly mach 3, unreinforced, w/o shredding. It started to delaminate, and a fin ripped off, but didn't let loose. Binder Design can give you the details. Funny story.. I launched my 10 foot tall 6 inch diameter 25 pound rocket made w/ Blue Tube 1.0 at the last launch under 98mm L power. It came in w/ no main chute, and hit the ground and "bounced" with no damage. It hit hard enough to break the epoxy bond between the altimeter sled and the brass tubes though! (Video on my site) Regarding a school project educational discount, sounds like fun! Get a hold of Carey at www.huffperformance.com, I'm sure he would love to help and be a part of it, as I am too but I'm not gonna step on his toes. I look forward to reading about it at lunch today. :) I do have some ARR and BT stickers I can send to him to give to you.... Sincerely, Randy -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:12 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Welcome to the list, Randall! I just saw on Monday that BT v2.0 has been released. My students had been considering using BT for their NASA Student Launch Initiative vehicle, but had previously been balking because of the "Tempest in a Teapot" regarding the heat and humidity thing--given that the SLI launch is at Marshall Spaceflight Center in Huntsville, AL. You can read about our project at the rocketsnw.com website if you'd like. Now that the new stuff is coming, they're seriously interested in using the product for their airframe. Is there any chance that you might slide us a discount on the tubes we'd need for our project? Maybe in exchange for prominent advertising space on the rocket and the right to brag about us on your website? Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Fri 11/13/2009 4:30 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Good morning everyone, At the request of a current list member, I was asked to join and introduce myself. Most people either know me or know of me in regards to my business and my signature product. This isn't meant to be an advertisement, but rather an open ended request to help answer questions in regards to Blue Tube and or construction with it, and to address the warping issue with the original product. Version 2.0 will be shipping by Thanksgiving and I have generated a lot of web content to help people understand the product's strengths, weaknesses and just be available to help answer questions. Chris Holden at Holden's Hobbies is a relatively new dealer in your neck of the woods and I wanted to make sure he was armed with all the information necessary to be successful. I have all kinds of things I would like to say about it but I am not going to abuse the forum and turn this into a Wal-Mart commercial. :) Your reputation as a group precedes yourself and I look forward to hearing valuable content as well. That's all, nuttin more, nuttin less. :) TGIF! Randy __________________ Randall J. Ejma TRA 9577 L3 arrsales at cox.net www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From 4ahoser at ispllc.net Fri Nov 13 09:44:45 2009 From: 4ahoser at ispllc.net (4ahoser at ispllc.net) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:44:45 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 In-Reply-To: <6639FDBB49A5460CBF870BEEDF0DC8BE@apcp.local> References: <5481C3FE350B48A8A0DB20440ADF29E9@apcp.local> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300332@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <6639FDBB49A5460CBF870BEEDF0DC8BE@apcp.local> Message-ID: Hi Peter, Let us know what you need, and we will be happy to help you out on your educational projects. Bob Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory www,rocketryshop.org >Hi Peter, > >Thank you! It's ironic that the "tempest in a teacup" article actually >"detracted" from the product when it was designed to "ease" people about it. >I've moved about a thousand tubes to dealers and end users all over the >country and Europe, and have exchanged about 5. There had been some >squeaking by a small percentage of people who knew about it (and we all know >how fast bad news travels). I want to run a clean shop, be open, be honest, >be transparent and let people know, even if it only affected a few. FWIW, >my BT 1.0 rocket hangs long ways in my garage in Tampa FL humidity, and is >straight. > >Everyone already knows there are drawbacks to every airframe material: >Phenolic is brittle, fiberglass is heavy, carbon fiber is incredibly >expensive, paper is weak, and, lastly, vulcanized fiber is mildly >hygroscopic. You work within each material's limitations. So, unless you are >building a 2x upscale Mean Machine and flying it in the Everglades in >August. Then, this probably isn't the product for you. :) > >Plus, I'm too lazy and impatient to fiberglass. I just want to use it. > >It's not as strong as fiberglass, but Blue Tube has gone nearly mach 3, >unreinforced, w/o shredding. It started to delaminate, and a fin ripped off, >but didn't let loose. Binder Design can give you the details. > >Funny story.. I launched my 10 foot tall 6 inch diameter 25 pound rocket >made w/ Blue Tube 1.0 at the last launch under 98mm L power. It came in w/ >no main chute, and hit the ground and "bounced" with no damage. It hit hard >enough to break the epoxy bond between the altimeter sled and the brass >tubes though! (Video on my site) > > >Regarding a school project educational discount, sounds like fun! Get a hold >of Carey at www.huffperformance.com, I'm sure he would love to help and be a >part of it, as I am too but I'm not gonna step on his toes. I look forward >to reading about it at lunch today. :) I do have some ARR and BT stickers I >can send to him to give to you.... > >Sincerely, > >Randy > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] >Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:12 AM >To: Always Ready Rocketry >Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 > >Welcome to the list, Randall! > >I just saw on Monday that BT v2.0 has been released. My students had been >considering using BT for their NASA Student Launch Initiative vehicle, but >had previously been balking because of the "Tempest in a Teapot" regarding >the heat and humidity thing--given that the SLI launch is at Marshall >Spaceflight Center in Huntsville, AL. You can read about our project at the >rocketsnw.com website if you'd like. > >Now that the new stuff is coming, they're seriously interested in using the >product for their airframe. > >Is there any chance that you might slide us a discount on the tubes we'd >need for our project? Maybe in exchange for prominent advertising space on >the rocket and the right to brag about us on your website? > >Peter Schurke >Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor >Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy >Ingraham High School >1819 N 135th St. >Seattle, WA 98133 > >________________________________ > >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry >Sent: Fri 11/13/2009 4:30 AM >To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 > > > >Good morning everyone, > > > >At the request of a current list member, I was asked to join and introduce >myself. Most people either know me or know of me in regards to my business >and my signature product. This isn't meant to be an advertisement, but >rather an open ended request to help answer questions in regards to Blue >Tube and or construction with it, and to address the warping issue with the >original product. Version 2.0 will be shipping by Thanksgiving and I have >generated a lot of web content to help people understand the product's >strengths, weaknesses and just be available to help answer questions. Chris >Holden at Holden's Hobbies is a relatively new dealer in your neck of the >woods and I wanted to make sure he was armed with all the information >necessary to be successful. I have all kinds of things I would like to say >about it but I am not going to abuse the forum and turn this into a Wal-Mart >commercial. :) Your reputation as a group precedes yourself and I look >forward to hearing valuable content as well. That's all, nuttin more, >nuttin less. :) > > > >TGIF! > > > >Randy > > > > > >__________________ > >Randall J. Ejma > >TRA 9577 L3 > >arrsales at cox.net > >www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From jhornsby3 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 09:48:54 2009 From: jhornsby3 at yahoo.com (John Hornsby) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:48:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? In-Reply-To: <861125.11829.qm@web112914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <861125.11829.qm@web112914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <940064.49997.qm@web110217.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I second this! It's best to watch your words carefully! Another reason I have backed from the hobby. It's comments like this that makes me want to dump this list too. John Hornsby ________________________________ From: Robert Braibish To: IBELCHLOUD at aol.com; krislhull at comcast.net; rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 8:14:11 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? Speaking?on behalf of the non idiot-half brains who likethe show and/orNASCAR,?I?ll caution those of you inclined to use unwarranted epithets, it may make one think you're egocentric blowhard with an over-inflated perception of the value of their opinion, and we wouldn't want folks to form an erroneous opinion about you because of a few ill-chosen words.? I'm sure we can all agree that when a conversation stoops to name-calling the merit of any given argument or perspective is diminished, and there really is no place for it in this venue. Robert ________________________________ From: "IBELCHLOUD at aol.com" To: krislhull at comcast.net; rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 6:53:22 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? I am just glad to see they didn't have Eric Gates "helping" them.? At least when it failed they didn't have the "expert" to try and explain it to all the idiot halfbrains who watch the show for the same reason idiot halfbrains watch NASCAR.? If they had at the very least contracted out the entire motor assembly the up part might have been successful.? Maybe.? Probably not though.? My biggest complaint is that this show is on Discovery Channel.? A channel that is supposed to be about science and learning.? At least it used to be.? You could turn it on and watch a program about say fighter planes and actually learn something.? They also had people's credentials on screen right under their name rather than calling themselves "experts".? Lou _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone..com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From 4ahoser at ispllc.net Fri Nov 13 09:50:01 2009 From: 4ahoser at ispllc.net (4ahoser at ispllc.net) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:50:01 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Sunriver 2010 plans? Message-ID: Greetings all, Looks like our budget was approved for 2010. As many of you know, we are a non-profit, educational organization, so every year, we submit a budget for our outreach to star parties and rocket launches. In 2009, we expanded to include a few AeroPac launches down in Nevada. For 2010, it looks like we can start to work on our schedule, and we do plan to attend FITS, OROC, Blue Mtn, and Aeropac launches as a vendor. There is even some talk of making it out to some of the Wilsonville OROC launches. I will be working out our schedule shortly, and look forward to seeing all soon. Just a reminder, that our winter sale is coming, and I will be posting that shortly. Enjoy your weekend, Bob Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory www.rocketryshop.org From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 13 16:22:44 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:22:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Standard procedure for avionics is: Power on / initialize / enable/ arm / fire In hobby rocketry the "enable" step can be and usually is omitted. The basic theory is, "arm" is the just final control point before firing. "Enable" is basically a backup safety; That portion of the whole electronics system isn't powered up until shortly before it is needed. In rocketry, "that portion" is usually the whole electronics package and "shortly before" translates into just prior to launch anyway, so "enable" is meaningless except as a redundant safe mode. And in hobby rockets, as Fred A. often points out, redundancy is as likely to cause problems as prevent them unless very thoughtfully executed. When I'm doing FSO, I'll pretty well demand a physical switch in the "off" position until the rocket is on the pad. At that point, wireless control is fine with me so long as it passes TRA and club RSO requirements. +McG+ > I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. > > The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in > a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch > is just adding another point of failure. > > The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort > of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that > the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch > rockets in your face. > > my .02 > > -- Greg > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther > wrote: >> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything >> wireless. ?This of course started with my phones, computers, and other >> things. ?Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >> wireless. >> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked >> into >> some of the newest in Rc controls. ?Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver >> combination's at >> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this >> avenue. >> >> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >> deployment >> system that has an arming key switch. ?I plan to leave the key switch in >> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. >> ?I >> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I >> could >> hook up a servo. ?I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel >> receiver. ?I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire >> it to >> the dual deployment altimeter. ?This way it can pick up everything from >> the >> altimeter. ?The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles >> and I >> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. ?Now >> when >> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 >> channel >> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. >> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for >> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage >> or >> air start. ? You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating >> the >> need for wires to the LCO table. >> >> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. >> ?Make >> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >> position. >> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be >> hooked >> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. ?Wait for >> the >> LCO to announce your rocket. ?At this point you let the LCO know that >> you >> wish to make an announcement. ?You tell everyone you are setup >> completely >> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. ?You could >> even >> have them all go out and check it. ?When every one is back at the flight >> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. ?The >> system >> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity >> status. ?Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your >> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. ?When you say launch trigger >> the >> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the >> heavens. ?The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, >> and >> deployment info. ?It should be a real crowd pleaser. >> >> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to > style="text-decoration: >> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. ?Research >> it >> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops >> to >> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. ?I will definitely have to have >> NAR >> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it >> would >> ever be seen in operation at an event. ?After all it is my baby and I >> will >> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either >> NAR >> or TRA. >> >> Any input on this is welcome. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From robert.krausert at intel.com Fri Nov 13 16:24:09 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:24:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> >From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not something I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any motor (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can ever fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or LCOing, even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically remove me as LCO. Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using them. And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a risk of deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And now you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. Nope. Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad thing. Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they can do wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it straight during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Greg Clark Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM To: Christopher Guenther Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch is just adding another point of failure. The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch rockets in your face. my .02 -- Greg On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther wrote: > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > wireless. ?This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > things. ?Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely wireless. > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked into > some of the newest in Rc controls. ?Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver combination's at > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this avenue. > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual deployment > system that has an arming key switch. ?I plan to leave the key switch in > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. ?I > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I could > hook up a servo. ?I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel > receiver. ?I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire it to > the dual deployment altimeter. ?This way it can pick up everything from the > altimeter. ?The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles and I > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. ?Now when > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 channel > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage or > air start. ? You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating the > need for wires to the LCO table. > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. ?Make > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off position. > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be hooked > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. ?Wait for the > LCO to announce your rocket. ?At this point you let the LCO know that you > wish to make an announcement. ?You tell everyone you are setup completely > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. ?You could even > have them all go out and check it. ?When every one is back at the flight > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. ?The system > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > status. ?Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. ?When you say launch trigger the > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > heavens. ?The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, and > deployment info. ?It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to TRY to make it a reality. ?Research it > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops to > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. ?I will definitely have to have NAR > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it would > ever be seen in operation at an event. ?After all it is my baby and I will > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either NAR > or TRA. > > Any input on this is welcome. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 13 16:53:42 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:53:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com > References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, discussion. ;-) One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to glide all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, but I may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than most descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise altitude measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm thinking of limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all confused(now which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it is another good reason for laundry-on-demand! Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near apogee. See my previous post about standard sequence. As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at length years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for very experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly impossible for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But gliders on descent is another matter. +McG+ >>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not something >> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any motor >> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can ever >> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or LCOing, >> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically >> remove me as LCO. > > Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using them. > And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a risk of > deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And now > you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. > Nope. > > Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. > Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad thing. > Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they can do > wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it straight > during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" > > Cheers, > Robert > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Clark > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM > To: Christopher Guenther > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. > > The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in > a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch > is just adding another point of failure. > > The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort > of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that > the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch > rockets in your face. > > my .02 > > -- Greg > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther > wrote: >> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything >> wireless. ?This of course started with my phones, computers, and other >> things. ?Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >> wireless. >> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked >> into >> some of the newest in Rc controls. ?Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver >> combination's at >> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this >> avenue. >> >> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >> deployment >> system that has an arming key switch. ?I plan to leave the key switch in >> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. >> ?I >> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I >> could >> hook up a servo. ?I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel >> receiver. ?I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire >> it to >> the dual deployment altimeter. ?This way it can pick up everything from >> the >> altimeter. ?The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles >> and I >> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. ?Now >> when >> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 >> channel >> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. >> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for >> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage >> or >> air start. ? You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating >> the >> need for wires to the LCO table. >> >> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. >> ?Make >> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >> position. >> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be >> hooked >> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. ?Wait for >> the >> LCO to announce your rocket. ?At this point you let the LCO know that >> you >> wish to make an announcement. ?You tell everyone you are setup >> completely >> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. ?You could >> even >> have them all go out and check it. ?When every one is back at the flight >> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. ?The >> system >> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity >> status. ?Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your >> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. ?When you say launch trigger >> the >> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the >> heavens. ?The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, >> and >> deployment info. ?It should be a real crowd pleaser. >> >> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to > style="text-decoration: >> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. ?Research >> it >> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops >> to >> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. ?I will definitely have to have >> NAR >> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it >> would >> ever be seen in operation at an event. ?After all it is my baby and I >> will >> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either >> NAR >> or TRA. >> >> Any input on this is welcome. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From robert.krausert at intel.com Fri Nov 13 17:08:41 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:08:41 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. Ken, that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM To: Krausert, Robert Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, discussion. ;-) One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to glide all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, but I may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than most descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise altitude measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm thinking of limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all confused(now which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it is another good reason for laundry-on-demand! Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near apogee. See my previous post about standard sequence. As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at length years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for very experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly impossible for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But gliders on descent is another matter. +McG+ >>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not something >> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any motor >> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can ever >> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or LCOing, >> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically >> remove me as LCO. > > Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using them. > And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a risk of > deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And now > you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. > Nope. > > Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. > Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad thing. > Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they can do > wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it straight > during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" > > Cheers, > Robert > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Clark > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM > To: Christopher Guenther > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. > > The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in > a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch > is just adding another point of failure. > > The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort > of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that > the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch > rockets in your face. > > my .02 > > -- Greg > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther > wrote: >> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything >> wireless. ?This of course started with my phones, computers, and other >> things. ?Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >> wireless. >> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked >> into >> some of the newest in Rc controls. ?Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver >> combination's at >> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this >> avenue. >> >> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >> deployment >> system that has an arming key switch. ?I plan to leave the key switch in >> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. >> ?I >> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I >> could >> hook up a servo. ?I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel >> receiver. ?I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire >> it to >> the dual deployment altimeter. ?This way it can pick up everything from >> the >> altimeter. ?The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles >> and I >> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. ?Now >> when >> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 >> channel >> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. >> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for >> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage >> or >> air start. ? You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating >> the >> need for wires to the LCO table. >> >> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. >> ?Make >> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >> position. >> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be >> hooked >> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. ?Wait for >> the >> LCO to announce your rocket. ?At this point you let the LCO know that >> you >> wish to make an announcement. ?You tell everyone you are setup >> completely >> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. ?You could >> even >> have them all go out and check it. ?When every one is back at the flight >> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. ?The >> system >> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity >> status. ?Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your >> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. ?When you say launch trigger >> the >> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the >> heavens. ?The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, >> and >> deployment info. ?It should be a real crowd pleaser. >> >> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to > style="text-decoration: >> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. ?Research >> it >> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops >> to >> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. ?I will definitely have to have >> NAR >> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it >> would >> ever be seen in operation at an event. ?After all it is my baby and I >> will >> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either >> NAR >> or TRA. >> >> Any input on this is welcome. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From winningstad at comcast.net Fri Nov 13 17:26:41 2009 From: winningstad at comcast.net (Dennis S Winningstad) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:26:41 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 In-Reply-To: <7B901A03B4224400B849F44FF72969F8@LaptopKrausert> References: <673780.73762.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7B901A03B4224400B849F44FF72969F8@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <041a01ca64c9$85302710$8f907530$@net> FINALLY! After years and years of seeing Bowling Green college play football, I now know where the HECK it is!!! Dennis S Winningstad 503-781-3529 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Robert Krausert Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:41 PM To: Sam Grado; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Hope to see you home again when the IT work gets you positioned here. I hope your family and the Hornsby family get back here, home, soon. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Sam Grado To: rockets at rocketsnw.com ; Robert Krausert Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 It is very nice here in Bowling Green, KY but I do miss the PNW. Fishing here sucks. Nothing but Bass & Catfish. When I watch videos of flights at Brothers, I do get homesick. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Robert Krausert wrote: From: Robert Krausert Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "Sam Grado" , rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 5:04 PM Sam, When you coming back home? Oregon is a good place. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Grado" To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 Great job everyone! The new site looks great! Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Greg Deputy wrote: From: Greg Deputy Subject: [RocketsNW] Northwest Rocketry web site 2.0 To: "'Rocket Mailing List'" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 AM I am happy to announce the pacific northwest rocketry community now has a new web site to share information, get the word out on launches, and showcase what we do! While I am extremely proud of the new site, I cannot take credit for it. We've got a super talented and motivated team of folks who have stepped up and put in a HUGE amount of time to build this new site. My heartfelt thanks go out to them. So please take a moment, visit www.NorthWestRocketry.com and be amazed. They've done a great job! Special thanks to the web team (in no particular order): Robert Braibish Christopher Guenther Robert Killen Robert Krausert Kent Newman Dave Randall Marty Weiser Greg Deputy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 17:29:02 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:29:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: What is the difference between a glider having a remote deploy ability and a rocket that is coming in hot because the regular electronics failed. I for one would like that last ditch effort to save 1 people that may be in harms way and 2 possibly save the rocket! On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Krausert, Robert wrote: > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. Ken, > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) > > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. > > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM > To: Krausert, Robert > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, > discussion. ;-) > > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to glide > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, but I > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than most > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise altitude > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. > > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm thinking of > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all confused(now > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it is > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! > > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near apogee. > See my previous post about standard sequence. > > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at length > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for very > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly impossible > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But > gliders on descent is another matter. > +McG+ > > > >>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not something > >> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any motor > >> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can ever > >> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or LCOing, > >> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically > >> remove me as LCO. > > > > Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using them. > > And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a risk of > > deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And now > > you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. > > Nope. > > > > Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. > > Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad > thing. > > Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they can do > > wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it straight > > during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" > > > > Cheers, > > Robert > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: > rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Greg Clark > > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM > > To: Christopher Guenther > > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. > > > > The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in > > a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch > > is just adding another point of failure. > > > > The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort > > of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that > > the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch > > rockets in your face. > > > > my .02 > > > > -- Greg > > > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther > > wrote: > >> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > >> wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > >> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely > >> wireless. > >> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked > >> into > >> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver > >> combination's at > >> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > >> avenue. > >> > >> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual > >> deployment > >> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch in > >> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. > >> I > >> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I > >> could > >> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel > >> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire > >> it to > >> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from > >> the > >> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles > >> and I > >> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now > >> when > >> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 > >> channel > >> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > >> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > >> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage > >> or > >> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating > >> the > >> need for wires to the LCO table. > >> > >> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. > >> Make > >> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off > >> position. > >> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be > >> hooked > >> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for > >> the > >> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that > >> you > >> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup > >> completely > >> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could > >> even > >> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the flight > >> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The > >> system > >> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > >> status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > >> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger > >> the > >> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > >> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, > >> and > >> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > >> > >> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to >> style="text-decoration: > >> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. Research > >> it > >> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops > >> to > >> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to have > >> NAR > >> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it > >> would > >> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I > >> will > >> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either > >> NAR > >> or TRA. > >> > >> Any input on this is welcome. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > From IBELCHLOUD at aol.com Fri Nov 13 18:50:04 2009 From: IBELCHLOUD at aol.com (IBELCHLOUD at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:50:04 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? Message-ID: I didn't mean that watching NASCAR or Mythbusters made someone an idiot halfbrain. I was referring to the group of people who only watch for catastrophes during both programs and then celebrate them. Sorry for the confusion, Lou Big autoracing fan by the way. From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 18:54:14 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:54:14 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even at that I am one of those people! That does not make me an idiot half brain! I love to watch the carnage and ways that they screw up. I even can usually tell you where they went wrong or made a drastic mistake. As for the rest of it is great to see how they get there anyway. I would keep any kind off bashing or off comments to my self. The old saying is if you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all! On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:50 PM, wrote: > I didn't mean that watching NASCAR or Mythbusters made someone an idiot > halfbrain. I was referring to the group of people who only watch for > catastrophes during both programs and then celebrate them. > > Sorry for the confusion, > > Lou > > Big autoracing fan by the way. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 18:54:32 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:54:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mythbusters cato? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even at that I am one of those people! That does not make me an idiot half brain! I love to watch the carnage and ways that they screw up. I even can usually tell you where they went wrong or made a drastic mistake. As for the rest of it is great to see how they get there anyway. I would keep any kind off bashing or off comments to my self. The old saying is if you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all! On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Christopher Guenther < guentherchristopher at gmail.com> wrote: > Even at that I am one of those people! That does not make me an idiot half > brain! I love to watch the carnage and ways that they screw up. I even can > usually tell you where they went wrong or made a drastic mistake. As for > the rest of it is great to see how they get there anyway. I would keep any > kind off bashing or off comments to my self. The old saying is if you have > nothing good to say then say nothing at all! > > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:50 PM, wrote: > >> I didn't mean that watching NASCAR or Mythbusters made someone an idiot >> halfbrain. I was referring to the group of people who only watch for >> catastrophes during both programs and then celebrate them. >> >> Sorry for the confusion, >> >> Lou >> >> Big autoracing fan by the way. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > From jhadv at pacifier.com Fri Nov 13 18:55:36 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (jhadv at pacifier.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] wireless avionics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49421.209.253.79.135.1258167336.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> While it wouldn't be "wireless" if one realy was inerested in solving the basic problem instead of gabbering about it why not just use fiber optic strands with a simple emitter(s) on one end and receiver(s) on the other? Cheap, small, lightweight and relatively easy. Again it wouldn't be wireless but it would eliminate the wires. Just g;ue to fiber optic strand to the body tube. From ryan98391 at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 18:59:17 2009 From: ryan98391 at gmail.com (Ryan Williams) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:59:17 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] I love Blue Tube Message-ID: I flew a 38mm Blue Tube rocket with a 29mm motor at the October launch in Mansfield, Washington. This was the rockets first flight; I plan on using 38mm motors in it. The flight went flawlessly. This is a 51 inch tall rocket that's based on the Screech XL kit, but with Blue Tube replacing the paper body. I have to say that I am very happy with Blue Tube. I have three new projects in various stages of completion and they all utilize Blue Tube. I look forward to getting my hands on Blue Tube 2.0. I know I'm going to have some fun at the fall launch next year with my new 54mm Blue Tube rockets! From tnetcenter at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 19:18:23 2009 From: tnetcenter at gmail.com (Jeff Moore) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:18:23 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: If your rocket is coming in ballistic, you aren't saving it by trying to steer it. A remote controlled recovery activation at the last second might save some of the vehicle but that's a slim chance. Jeff Moore BORG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" What is the difference between a glider having a remote deploy ability and a rocket that is coming in hot because the regular electronics failed. I for one would like that last ditch effort to save 1 people that may be in harms way and 2 possibly save the rocket! From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 13 19:26:06 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:26:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <1258160412-sup-1802@keithp.com> References: <1258160412-sup-1802@keithp.com> Message-ID: <835b98b2351f932547db1ef12ecc3829.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> I'd be fine with the scenario you address. Just be sure that when the rocket is horizontal on the rail that's it's pointed more or less away from the crowd. (It can even be argued here that directly away is not the best in case of certain situations resulting in accidental ignition and nozzle spit but hey, with the table of distances in play I don't obsess about multiple simultaneous rare failure modes.) What I really don't want to see is rockets sitting around in the prep area or being carried hither and thither with only a radio link between 'everything's fine' and 'oh crap'. Receivers on rare occasions have been known to get swamped by a nearby transmitter and do weird things. Flyers on occasion have been known to push buttons and flip switches before thinking. Etc. One of my favorite articles on amateur rocketry back in the 1950's shows a guy standing on the top ring of an upright tower launcher helping load a rocket with the title, "These Rocketeers Play Safe." Heh, not if he slips and breaks his neck! +McG+ > Excerpts from kmcgoffin's message of Fri Nov 13 16:22:44 -0800 2009: > >> When I'm doing FSO, I'll pretty well demand a physical switch in the >> "off" >> position until the rocket is on the pad. At that point, wireless >> control >> is fine with me so long as it passes TRA and club RSO requirements. > > So, in response to some requests for an easier-to-use 'arm' mechanism, > here's what I'm doing with 'wireless arming' for rockets where the > arming switch is out of reach once the rocket is vertical. The > goal here is to eliminate the need to climb the launch tower to turn > the electronics on (or scale some sad excuse for a ladder). > > 1) Physical power switch that disconnects the battery from everything > else > > 2) Remote control 'reboot' mechanism in the flight computer. > > 3) Detection of attitude (horizontal vs vertical). Software goes into > 'idle' mode and "cannot" fire ejection charges when the rocket is > booted while sitting horizontally. 'flight' mode only happens when > the rocket is booted while sitting vertically. Audible indication > of 'idle' vs 'flight' modes (plus indication over the radio link). > > 4) Switch is off until the rocket is out at the pad ready to be > launched. > > 5) Rocket is placed on the rail, but left horizontal. Area around > rocket (fore and aft especially) is cleared. > > 6) Flight computer is powered up and 'idle' mode verified. > > 7) Rocket raised to vertical position. > > 8) Flight computer is remotely rebooted and 'flight' mode verified. > (this happpens over a radio link, and so could be done from far > away) > > 9) Pad area cleared. > > 10) Rocket launched. > > I'd love comments on whether this mechanism is considered safer than > climbing the tower, and more importantly, whether it would be accepted > by the FSO. > > -keith > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 19:34:27 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:34:27 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: Not trying to steer it but to force a chute Deployment via radio control. On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Jeff Moore wrote: > If your rocket is coming in ballistic, you aren't saving it by trying to > steer it. A remote controlled recovery activation at the last second might > save some of the vehicle but that's a slim chance. > > Jeff Moore > BORG > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Guenther" > > > What is the difference between a glider having a remote deploy ability and > a > rocket that is coming in hot because the regular electronics failed. I for > one would like that last ditch effort to save 1 people that may be in harms > way and 2 possibly save the rocket! > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 13 19:38:13 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:38:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <0d2124450fe57f265364b0bfe76f5575.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> I've seen remote recovery activation save a rocket at an OROC launch back in the 1990's. That was back when some guy was selling garage door openers for rocketry use. Forgot who. It's the same argument about whether backups help or hurt. The answer is that it all depends on the details. +McG+ > If your rocket is coming in ballistic, you aren't saving it by trying to > steer it. A remote controlled recovery activation at the last second > might > save some of the vehicle but that's a slim chance. > > Jeff Moore > BORG > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Guenther" > > > What is the difference between a glider having a remote deploy ability and > a > rocket that is coming in hot because the regular electronics failed. I > for > one would like that last ditch effort to save 1 people that may be in > harms > way and 2 possibly save the rocket! > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From IBELCHLOUD at aol.com Fri Nov 13 19:46:06 2009 From: IBELCHLOUD at aol.com (IBELCHLOUD at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:46:06 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system Message-ID: Missileworks already has a unit ,the WRC, that people use as a hail mary backup just in case. I have seen one used it did its job remarkably. A backup like that is quite understandable however I will agree with Robert about complete loop out of the LCO. The LCO is always the person that controls the launch. Wireless motor ignition is acceptable as long as the LCO has the final go/no go call. On the other note about steering rockets Richard Hagensick tried that at BALLS a couple years ago, did not work out so well. Bunch of skywriting ending with a lawn dart I believe. Lou From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 19:49:10 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:49:10 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The purpose will not be to loop out the LCO. It is to eventually make the LCO controls wireless cutting the need for long wires. On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:46 PM, wrote: > Missileworks already has a unit ,the WRC, that people use as a hail mary > backup just in case. I have seen one used it did its job remarkably. A > backup like that is quite understandable however I will agree with Robert > about complete loop out of the LCO. The LCO is always the person that > controls the launch. Wireless motor ignition is acceptable as long as the > LCO has the final go/no go call. > > On the other note about steering rockets Richard Hagensick tried that at > BALLS a couple years ago, did not work out so well. Bunch of skywriting > ending with a lawn dart I believe. > > Lou From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 13 19:53:11 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:53:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com > References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC meeting over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now, *which* way is 'starboard' for the rocket?), the varying speed which changes drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given movement of the joystick, and the sheer quickness with which things happen during ascent. Hint folks, there's good reason why active guidance systems on aircraft(and for that matter, antilock brakes) use reaction times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike your reflexes are, you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have catlike reflexes that fast. +McG+ > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. Ken, > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) > > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. > > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM > To: Krausert, Robert > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, > discussion. ;-) > > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to glide > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, but I > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than most > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise altitude > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. > > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm thinking of > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all confused(now > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it is > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! > > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near apogee. > See my previous post about standard sequence. > > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at length > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for very > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly impossible > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But > gliders on descent is another matter. > +McG+ > > >>>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not something >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any motor >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can ever >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or >>> LCOing, >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically >>> remove me as LCO. >> >> Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using them. >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a risk >> of >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And now >> you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. >> Nope. >> >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad >> thing. >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they can >> do >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it straight >> during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM >> To: Christopher Guenther >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >> >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. >> >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in >> a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch >> is just adding another point of failure. >> >> The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch >> rockets in your face. >> >> my .02 >> >> -- Greg >> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther >> wrote: >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything >>> wireless. ?This of course started with my phones, computers, and other >>> things. ?Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >>> wireless. >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked >>> into >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. ?Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver >>> combination's at >>> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this >>> avenue. >>> >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >>> deployment >>> system that has an arming key switch. ?I plan to leave the key switch >>> in >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. >>> ?I >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I >>> could >>> hook up a servo. ?I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 >>> channel >>> receiver. ?I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire >>> it to >>> the dual deployment altimeter. ?This way it can pick up everything from >>> the >>> altimeter. ?The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles >>> and I >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. ?Now >>> when >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 >>> channel >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage >>> or >>> air start. ? You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating >>> the >>> need for wires to the LCO table. >>> >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. >>> ?Make >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >>> position. >>> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be >>> hooked >>> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. ?Wait for >>> the >>> LCO to announce your rocket. ?At this point you let the LCO know that >>> you >>> wish to make an announcement. ?You tell everyone you are setup >>> completely >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. ?You could >>> even >>> have them all go out and check it. ?When every one is back at the >>> flight >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. ?The >>> system >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity >>> status. ?Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your >>> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. ?When you say launch trigger >>> the >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the >>> heavens. ?The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, >>> and >>> deployment info. ?It should be a real crowd pleaser. >>> >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to >> style="text-decoration: >>> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. ?Research >>> it >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops >>> to >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. ?I will definitely have to >>> have >>> NAR >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it >>> would >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. ?After all it is my baby and I >>> will >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from >>> either >>> NAR >>> or TRA. >>> >>> Any input on this is welcome. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 19:59:53 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:59:53 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: Again there is no steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting motors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry of all your avionics. Also being able to arm the system from the flight line which will make it much safer than having it go off in your face when you arm it on the pad if something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like the ability to set off any unspent charges from a distance when walking up on its landing zone saving any chance of injury during recovery. On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:53 PM, wrote: > Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC meeting > over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL > > People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now, *which* > way is 'starboard' for the rocket?), the varying speed which changes > drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given > movement of the joystick, and the sheer quickness with which things happen > during ascent. Hint folks, there's good reason why active guidance > systems on aircraft(and for that matter, antilock brakes) use reaction > times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike your > reflexes are, you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have catlike > reflexes that fast. > +McG+ > > > > > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. Ken, > > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) > > > > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. > > > > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) > > > > Cheers, > > Robert > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM > > To: Krausert, Robert > > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, > > discussion. ;-) > > > > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket > > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. > > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to glide > > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, but > I > > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than most > > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise altitude > > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. > > > > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm thinking > of > > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC > > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all confused(now > > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it > > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it is > > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! > > > > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near > apogee. > > See my previous post about standard sequence. > > > > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at length > > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for > very > > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly impossible > > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But > > gliders on descent is another matter. > > +McG+ > > > > > >>>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not something > >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any motor > >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can ever > >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or > >>> LCOing, > >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically > >>> remove me as LCO. > >> > >> Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using them. > >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a risk > >> of > >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And now > >> you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. > >> Nope. > >> > >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. > >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad > >> thing. > >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they can > >> do > >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it straight > >> during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Robert > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark > >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM > >> To: Christopher Guenther > >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > >> > >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. > >> > >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in > >> a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch > >> is just adding another point of failure. > >> > >> The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort > >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that > >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch > >> rockets in your face. > >> > >> my .02 > >> > >> -- Greg > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther > >> wrote: > >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > >>> wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > >>> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely > >>> wireless. > >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked > >>> into > >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver > >>> combination's at > >>> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > >>> avenue. > >>> > >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual > >>> deployment > >>> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch > >>> in > >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. > >>> I > >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I > >>> could > >>> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 > >>> channel > >>> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire > >>> it to > >>> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from > >>> the > >>> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles > >>> and I > >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now > >>> when > >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 > >>> channel > >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage > >>> or > >>> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating > >>> the > >>> need for wires to the LCO table. > >>> > >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. > >>> Make > >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off > >>> position. > >>> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be > >>> hooked > >>> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for > >>> the > >>> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that > >>> you > >>> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup > >>> completely > >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could > >>> even > >>> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the > >>> flight > >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The > >>> system > >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > >>> status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > >>> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger > >>> the > >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > >>> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, > >>> and > >>> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > >>> > >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to >>> style="text-decoration: > >>> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. Research > >>> it > >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops > >>> to > >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to > >>> have > >>> NAR > >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it > >>> would > >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I > >>> will > >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from > >>> either > >>> NAR > >>> or TRA. > >>> > >>> Any input on this is welcome. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Rockets mailing list > >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 20:18:55 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:18:55 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <51F68D39ADCF4F59A8D53B58EE6AF003@LaptopKrausert> First, I didn't like taking the LCO out. The wink and nod, and you control the igintion. No I don't like. You said later not to take the LCO out, but your original message did. Second, the hail Mary was interesting, I said that. It will not save the rocket, but that's not what HM is about. Still not a fan. Third, I said don't ask me about fin control. That's all I asked. Hasn't been asked here yet. But some of the folks trying to get into OROC have asked. And as always, No Way. Gliders ok. Forth, Ken - as for the drunken brawl at the meeting... So far I'm not work conflicted and should be there. I'm there for that. ;-) Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > Again there is no steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting > motors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry of all > your avionics. Also being able to arm the system from the flight line > which > will make it much safer than having it go off in your face when you arm it > on the pad if something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like the > ability to set off any unspent charges from a distance when walking up on > its landing zone saving any chance of injury during recovery. > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:53 PM, wrote: > >> Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC >> meeting >> over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL >> >> People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now, *which* >> way is 'starboard' for the rocket?), the varying speed which changes >> drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given >> movement of the joystick, and the sheer quickness with which things >> happen >> during ascent. Hint folks, there's good reason why active guidance >> systems on aircraft(and for that matter, antilock brakes) use reaction >> times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike your >> reflexes are, you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have catlike >> reflexes that fast. >> +McG+ >> >> >> >> > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. >> > Ken, >> > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) >> > >> > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. >> > >> > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Robert >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> > [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] >> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM >> > To: Krausert, Robert >> > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >> > >> > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, >> > discussion. ;-) >> > >> > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket >> > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. >> > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to glide >> > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, >> > but >> I >> > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than most >> > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise >> > altitude >> > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. >> > >> > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm thinking >> of >> > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC >> > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all >> > confused(now >> > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it >> > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it is >> > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! >> > >> > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near >> apogee. >> > See my previous post about standard sequence. >> > >> > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at >> > length >> > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for >> very >> > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly >> > impossible >> > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But >> > gliders on descent is another matter. >> > +McG+ >> > >> > >> >>>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not something >> >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any motor >> >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can ever >> >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or >> >>> LCOing, >> >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically >> >>> remove me as LCO. >> >> >> >> Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using >> >> them. >> >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a risk >> >> of >> >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And >> >> now >> >> you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. >> >> Nope. >> >> >> >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. >> >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad >> >> thing. >> >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they can >> >> do >> >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it >> >> straight >> >> during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Robert >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark >> >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM >> >> To: Christopher Guenther >> >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >> >> >> >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. >> >> >> >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in >> >> a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch >> >> is just adding another point of failure. >> >> >> >> The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort >> >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that >> >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch >> >> rockets in your face. >> >> >> >> my .02 >> >> >> >> -- Greg >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther >> >> wrote: >> >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making >> >>> everything >> >>> wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and >> >>> other >> >>> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >> >>> wireless. >> >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked >> >>> into >> >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver >> >>> combination's at >> >>> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this >> >>> avenue. >> >>> >> >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >> >>> deployment >> >>> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch >> >>> in >> >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose >> >>> to. >> >>> I >> >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I >> >>> could >> >>> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 >> >>> channel >> >>> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and >> >>> wire >> >>> it to >> >>> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything >> >>> from >> >>> the >> >>> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles >> >>> and I >> >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. >> >>> Now >> >>> when >> >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 >> >>> channel >> >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch >> >>> ignition. >> >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for >> >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second >> >>> stage >> >>> or >> >>> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus >> >>> eliminating >> >>> the >> >>> need for wires to the LCO table. >> >>> >> >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. >> >>> Make >> >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >> >>> position. >> >>> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be >> >>> hooked >> >>> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait >> >>> for >> >>> the >> >>> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that >> >>> you >> >>> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup >> >>> completely >> >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You >> >>> could >> >>> even >> >>> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the >> >>> flight >> >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The >> >>> system >> >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity >> >>> status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear >> >>> your >> >>> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger >> >>> the >> >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards >> >>> the >> >>> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, >> >>> apogee, >> >>> and >> >>> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. >> >>> >> >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to > >>> style="text-decoration: >> >>> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. >> >>> Research >> >>> it >> >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related >> >>> hoops >> >>> to >> >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to >> >>> have >> >>> NAR >> >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it >> >>> would >> >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I >> >>> will >> >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from >> >>> either >> >>> NAR >> >>> or TRA. >> >>> >> >>> Any input on this is welcome. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Rockets mailing list >> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 20:52:32 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:52:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <51F68D39ADCF4F59A8D53B58EE6AF003@LaptopKrausert> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <51F68D39ADCF4F59A8D53B58EE6AF003@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: Why would I want to go in on fin control that would be just way to militaristic. I am in it for the hobby and developing safer ways to do things. I guess I was not clear about where the Rc control would be. It would be at the LCO table and the LCO would still have total say on go/no go. I fell that having a fully wireless system would be the safest way to go. Also the key could still be used it is being driven via Rc much the same way as power locks on your car. All the parts are there to be turned on or off by key or to be turned on or off by Rc using a servo. On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > First, I didn't like taking the LCO out. The wink and nod, and you control > the igintion. No I don't like. You said later not to take the LCO out, but > your original message did. > > Second, the hail Mary was interesting, I said that. It will not save the > rocket, but that's not what HM is about. Still not a fan. > > Third, I said don't ask me about fin control. That's all I asked. Hasn't > been asked here yet. But some of the folks trying to get into OROC have > asked. And as always, No Way. Gliders ok. > > Forth, Ken - as for the drunken brawl at the meeting... So far I'm not work > conflicted and should be there. I'm there for that. ;-) > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > To: > Cc: > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > Again there is no steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting >> motors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry of all >> your avionics. Also being able to arm the system from the flight line >> which >> will make it much safer than having it go off in your face when you arm it >> on the pad if something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like the >> ability to set off any unspent charges from a distance when walking up on >> its landing zone saving any chance of injury during recovery. >> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:53 PM, wrote: >> >> Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC >>> meeting >>> over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL >>> >>> People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now, *which* >>> way is 'starboard' for the rocket?), the varying speed which changes >>> drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given >>> movement of the joystick, and the sheer quickness with which things >>> happen >>> during ascent. Hint folks, there's good reason why active guidance >>> systems on aircraft(and for that matter, antilock brakes) use reaction >>> times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike your >>> reflexes are, you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have catlike >>> reflexes that fast. >>> +McG+ >>> >>> >>> >>> > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. > >>> Ken, >>> > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) >>> > >>> > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. >>> > >>> > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Robert >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > [mailto: >>> kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] >>> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM >>> > To: Krausert, Robert >>> > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >>> > >>> > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, >>> > discussion. ;-) >>> > >>> > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket >>> > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. >>> > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to glide >>> > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, > >>> but >>> I >>> > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than most >>> > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise > >>> altitude >>> > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. >>> > >>> > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm thinking >>> of >>> > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC >>> > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all > >>> confused(now >>> > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it >>> > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it is >>> > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! >>> > >>> > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near >>> apogee. >>> > See my previous post about standard sequence. >>> > >>> > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at > >>> length >>> > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for >>> very >>> > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly > >>> impossible >>> > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But >>> > gliders on descent is another matter. >>> > +McG+ >>> > >>> > >>> >>>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not something >>> >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any motor >>> >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can ever >>> >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or >>> >>> LCOing, >>> >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically >>> >>> remove me as LCO. >>> >> >>> >> Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using >> >>> them. >>> >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a risk >>> >> of >>> >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And >> >>> now >>> >> you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. >>> >> Nope. >>> >> >>> >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. >>> >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad >>> >> thing. >>> >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they can >>> >> do >>> >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it >> >>> straight >>> >> during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" >>> >> >>> >> Cheers, >>> >> Robert >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark >>> >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM >>> >> To: Christopher Guenther >>> >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >>> >> >>> >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. >>> >> >>> >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting in >>> >> a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical switch >>> >> is just adding another point of failure. >>> >> >>> >> The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort >>> >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so that >>> >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch >>> >> rockets in your face. >>> >> >>> >> my .02 >>> >> >>> >> -- Greg >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making >>> >>> everything >>> >>> wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and >>> >>> other >>> >>> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >>> >>> wireless. >>> >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked >>> >>> into >>> >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver >>> >>> combination's at >>> >>> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this >>> >>> avenue. >>> >>> >>> >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >>> >>> deployment >>> >>> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch >>> >>> in >>> >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose >>> >>> to. >>> >>> I >>> >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I >>> >>> could >>> >>> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 >>> >>> channel >>> >>> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and >>> >>> wire >>> >>> it to >>> >>> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything >>> >>> from >>> >>> the >>> >>> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles >>> >>> and I >>> >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. >>> >>> Now >>> >>> when >>> >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 >>> >>> channel >>> >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch >>> >>> ignition. >>> >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for >>> >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second >>> >>> stage >>> >>> or >>> >>> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus >>> >>> eliminating >>> >>> the >>> >>> need for wires to the LCO table. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. >>> >>> Make >>> >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >>> >>> position. >>> >>> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be >>> >>> hooked >>> >>> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait >>> >>> for >>> >>> the >>> >>> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that >>> >>> you >>> >>> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup >>> >>> completely >>> >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You >>> >>> could >>> >>> even >>> >>> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the >>> >>> flight >>> >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The >>> >>> system >>> >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity >>> >>> status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear >>> >>> your >>> >>> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger >>> >>> the >>> >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards >>> >>> the >>> >>> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, >>> >>> apogee, >>> >>> and >>> >>> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to >> >>> style="text-decoration: >>> >>> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. >>> >>> Research >>> >>> it >>> >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related >>> >>> hoops >>> >>> to >>> >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to >>> >>> have >>> >>> NAR >>> >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it >>> >>> would >>> >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I >>> >>> will >>> >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from >>> >>> either >>> >>> NAR >>> >>> or TRA. >>> >>> >>> >>> Any input on this is welcome. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Rockets mailing list >>> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Rockets mailing list >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Rockets mailing list >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 13 22:27:33 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:27:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <944ef51ed77d8d585816590416cb4b54.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> I'm not thumping on you Chris. I'm just following my own line of thought on this thread. +McG+ > Again there is no steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting > motors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry of all > your avionics. Also being able to arm the system from the flight line > which > will make it much safer than having it go off in your face when you arm it > on the pad if something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like the > ability to set off any unspent charges from a distance when walking up on > its landing zone saving any chance of injury during recovery. > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:53 PM, wrote: > >> Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC >> meeting >> over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL >> >> People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now, *which* >> way is 'starboard' for the rocket?), the varying speed which changes >> drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given >> movement of the joystick, and the sheer quickness with which things >> happen >> during ascent. Hint folks, there's good reason why active guidance >> systems on aircraft(and for that matter, antilock brakes) use reaction >> times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike your >> reflexes are, you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have catlike >> reflexes that fast. >> +McG+ >> >> >> >> > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. >> Ken, >> > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) >> > >> > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. >> > >> > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Robert >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] >> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM >> > To: Krausert, Robert >> > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >> > >> > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, >> > discussion. ;-) >> > >> > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket >> > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. >> > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to >> glide >> > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, >> but >> I >> > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than most >> > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise >> altitude >> > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. >> > >> > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm >> thinking >> of >> > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC >> > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all >> confused(now >> > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it >> > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it is >> > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! >> > >> > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near >> apogee. >> > See my previous post about standard sequence. >> > >> > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at >> length >> > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for >> very >> > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly >> impossible >> > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But >> > gliders on descent is another matter. >> > +McG+ >> > >> > >> >>>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not >> something >> >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any >> motor >> >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can >> ever >> >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or >> >>> LCOing, >> >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to physically >> >>> remove me as LCO. >> >> >> >> Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using >> them. >> >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a >> risk >> >> of >> >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And >> now >> >> you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on someone. >> >> Nope. >> >> >> >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink telemetry. >> >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad >> >> thing. >> >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they >> can >> >> do >> >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it >> straight >> >> during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Robert >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark >> >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM >> >> To: Christopher Guenther >> >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >> >> >> >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. >> >> >> >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting >> in >> >> a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical >> switch >> >> is just adding another point of failure. >> >> >> >> The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort >> >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so >> that >> >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch >> >> rockets in your face. >> >> >> >> my .02 >> >> >> >> -- Greg >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther >> >> wrote: >> >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making >> everything >> >>> wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and >> other >> >>> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >> >>> wireless. >> >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all >> hooked >> >>> into >> >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver >> >>> combination's at >> >>> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this >> >>> avenue. >> >>> >> >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >> >>> deployment >> >>> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key >> switch >> >>> in >> >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose >> to. >> >>> I >> >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I >> >>> could >> >>> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 >> >>> channel >> >>> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and >> wire >> >>> it to >> >>> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything >> from >> >>> the >> >>> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc >> vehicles >> >>> and I >> >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. >> Now >> >>> when >> >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 >> >>> channel >> >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch >> ignition. >> >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it >> for >> >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second >> stage >> >>> or >> >>> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus >> eliminating >> >>> the >> >>> need for wires to the LCO table. >> >>> >> >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. >> >>> Make >> >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >> >>> position. >> >>> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be >> >>> hooked >> >>> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait >> for >> >>> the >> >>> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know >> that >> >>> you >> >>> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup >> >>> completely >> >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You >> could >> >>> even >> >>> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the >> >>> flight >> >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The >> >>> system >> >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity >> >>> status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear >> your >> >>> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch >> trigger >> >>> the >> >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards >> the >> >>> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, >> apogee, >> >>> and >> >>> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. >> >>> >> >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to > >>> style="text-decoration: >> >>> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. >> Research >> >>> it >> >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related >> hoops >> >>> to >> >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to >> >>> have >> >>> NAR >> >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it >> >>> would >> >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and >> I >> >>> will >> >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from >> >>> either >> >>> NAR >> >>> or TRA. >> >>> >> >>> Any input on this is welcome. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Rockets mailing list >> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 13 22:58:48 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:58:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <51F68D39ADCF4F59A8D53B58EE6AF003@LaptopKrausert> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <51F68D39ADCF4F59A8D53B58EE6AF003@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: Hmmm. The third and fourth points come together on the subject of sunseeker guidance. Not human control of fins but definitely active guidance using steering vanes. Only capable of homing on the sun. But not necessarily perfectly predictable either. And it always has been somewhat politically contentious within the hobby. I've got half-finished plans along those lines that go back at least ten years. Didn't want to reproduce George Gassaway's sunseeker rocket and got stuck on a technical matter of DIY servo design. That'd make for a good bone of contention here. Of course, in real life I'd never ask to launch a sunseeker at an OROC launch that I hadn't thoroughly ground tested and flown before elsewhere. But it's possible someday I may. OROC has three Brothers launches in the seasonal window. Due to NAR/TRA rules and practical considerations it would have to fly within a month or so of the summer solstice and around high noon in a fairly clear sky. And at Brothers that would mean back over the flight line so it would have to go from the hill or the old away cell to the west. Or EX Friday when the prez isn't there....heh. Sunseeker active guidance using fin control. So, Robert, are those good 'nuff fightin' words? :) +McG+ > First, I didn't like taking the LCO out. The wink and nod, and you control > the igintion. No I don't like. You said later not to take the LCO out, but > your original message did. > > Second, the hail Mary was interesting, I said that. It will not save the > rocket, but that's not what HM is about. Still not a fan. > > Third, I said don't ask me about fin control. That's all I asked. Hasn't > been asked here yet. But some of the folks trying to get into OROC have > asked. And as always, No Way. Gliders ok. > > Forth, Ken - as for the drunken brawl at the meeting... So far I'm not > work > conflicted and should be there. I'm there for that. ;-) > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Guenther" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > >> Again there is no steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting >> motors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry of >> all >> your avionics. Also being able to arm the system from the flight line >> which >> will make it much safer than having it go off in your face when you arm >> it >> on the pad if something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like >> the >> ability to set off any unspent charges from a distance when walking up >> on >> its landing zone saving any chance of injury during recovery. >> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:53 PM, wrote: >> >>> Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC >>> meeting >>> over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL >>> >>> People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now, >>> *which* >>> way is 'starboard' for the rocket?), the varying speed which changes >>> drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given >>> movement of the joystick, and the sheer quickness with which things >>> happen >>> during ascent. Hint folks, there's good reason why active guidance >>> systems on aircraft(and for that matter, antilock brakes) use reaction >>> times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike your >>> reflexes are, you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have catlike >>> reflexes that fast. >>> +McG+ >>> >>> >>> >>> > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. >>> > Ken, >>> > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) >>> > >>> > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. >>> > >>> > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Robert >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> > [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] >>> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM >>> > To: Krausert, Robert >>> > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >>> > >>> > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, >>> > discussion. ;-) >>> > >>> > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket >>> > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. >>> > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to >>> glide >>> > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, >>> > but >>> I >>> > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than >>> most >>> > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise >>> > altitude >>> > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. >>> > >>> > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm >>> thinking >>> of >>> > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC >>> > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all >>> > confused(now >>> > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it >>> > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it >>> is >>> > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! >>> > >>> > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near >>> apogee. >>> > See my previous post about standard sequence. >>> > >>> > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at >>> > length >>> > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for >>> very >>> > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly >>> > impossible >>> > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But >>> > gliders on descent is another matter. >>> > +McG+ >>> > >>> > >>> >>>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not >>> something >>> >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any >>> motor >>> >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can >>> ever >>> >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or >>> >>> LCOing, >>> >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to >>> physically >>> >>> remove me as LCO. >>> >> >>> >> Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using >>> >> them. >>> >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a >>> risk >>> >> of >>> >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And >>> >> now >>> >> you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on >>> someone. >>> >> Nope. >>> >> >>> >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink >>> telemetry. >>> >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad >>> >> thing. >>> >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they >>> can >>> >> do >>> >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it >>> >> straight >>> >> during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" >>> >> >>> >> Cheers, >>> >> Robert >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark >>> >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM >>> >> To: Christopher Guenther >>> >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition >>> system >>> >> >>> >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. >>> >> >>> >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting >>> in >>> >> a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical >>> switch >>> >> is just adding another point of failure. >>> >> >>> >> The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort >>> >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so >>> that >>> >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch >>> >> rockets in your face. >>> >> >>> >> my .02 >>> >> >>> >> -- Greg >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making >>> >>> everything >>> >>> wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and >>> >>> other >>> >>> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >>> >>> wireless. >>> >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all >>> hooked >>> >>> into >>> >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver >>> >>> combination's at >>> >>> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this >>> >>> avenue. >>> >>> >>> >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >>> >>> deployment >>> >>> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key >>> switch >>> >>> in >>> >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose >>> >>> to. >>> >>> I >>> >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that >>> I >>> >>> could >>> >>> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 >>> >>> channel >>> >>> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and >>> >>> wire >>> >>> it to >>> >>> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything >>> >>> from >>> >>> the >>> >>> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc >>> vehicles >>> >>> and I >>> >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. >>> >>> Now >>> >>> when >>> >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a >>> 7 >>> >>> channel >>> >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch >>> >>> ignition. >>> >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it >>> for >>> >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second >>> >>> stage >>> >>> or >>> >>> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus >>> >>> eliminating >>> >>> the >>> >>> need for wires to the LCO table. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. >>> >>> Make >>> >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >>> >>> position. >>> >>> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be >>> >>> hooked >>> >>> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait >>> >>> for >>> >>> the >>> >>> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know >>> that >>> >>> you >>> >>> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup >>> >>> completely >>> >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You >>> >>> could >>> >>> even >>> >>> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the >>> >>> flight >>> >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The >>> >>> system >>> >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your >>> continuity >>> >>> status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear >>> >>> your >>> >>> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch >>> trigger >>> >>> the >>> >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards >>> >>> the >>> >>> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, >>> >>> apogee, >>> >>> and >>> >>> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to >> >>> style="text-decoration: >>> >>> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. >>> >>> Research >>> >>> it >>> >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related >>> >>> hoops >>> >>> to >>> >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to >>> >>> have >>> >>> NAR >>> >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before >>> it >>> >>> would >>> >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and >>> I >>> >>> will >>> >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from >>> >>> either >>> >>> NAR >>> >>> or TRA. >>> >>> >>> >>> Any input on this is welcome. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Rockets mailing list >>> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Rockets mailing list >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Rockets mailing list >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > From appusher at q.com Fri Nov 13 23:23:26 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:23:26 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: kinda like a heat seeker? EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:58:48 -0800 > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > Hmmm. The third and fourth points come together on the subject of > sunseeker guidance. Not human control of fins but definitely active > guidance using steering vanes. Only capable of homing on the sun. But > not necessarily perfectly predictable either. And it always has been > somewhat politically contentious within the hobby. > > I've got half-finished plans along those lines that go back at least ten > years. Didn't want to reproduce George Gassaway's sunseeker rocket and > got stuck on a technical matter of DIY servo design. > > That'd make for a good bone of contention here. > > Of course, in real life I'd never ask to launch a sunseeker at an OROC > launch that I hadn't thoroughly ground tested and flown before elsewhere. > But it's possible someday I may. OROC has three Brothers launches in the > seasonal window. Due to NAR/TRA rules and practical considerations it > would have to fly within a month or so of the summer solstice and around > high noon in a fairly clear sky. And at Brothers that would mean back > over the flight line so it would have to go from the hill or the old away > cell to the west. Or EX Friday when the prez isn't there....heh. > > Sunseeker active guidance using fin control. So, Robert, are those good > 'nuff fightin' words? :) > > +McG+ > > > > First, I didn't like taking the LCO out. The wink and nod, and you control > > the igintion. No I don't like. You said later not to take the LCO out, but > > your original message did. > > > > Second, the hail Mary was interesting, I said that. It will not save the > > rocket, but that's not what HM is about. Still not a fan. > > > > Third, I said don't ask me about fin control. That's all I asked. Hasn't > > been asked here yet. But some of the folks trying to get into OROC have > > asked. And as always, No Way. Gliders ok. > > > > Forth, Ken - as for the drunken brawl at the meeting... So far I'm not > > work > > conflicted and should be there. I'm there for that. ;-) > > > > Cheers, > > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christopher Guenther" > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > >> Again there is no steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting > >> motors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry of > >> all > >> your avionics. Also being able to arm the system from the flight line > >> which > >> will make it much safer than having it go off in your face when you arm > >> it > >> on the pad if something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like > >> the > >> ability to set off any unspent charges from a distance when walking up > >> on > >> its landing zone saving any chance of injury during recovery. > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:53 PM, wrote: > >> > >>> Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC > >>> meeting > >>> over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL > >>> > >>> People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now, > >>> *which* > >>> way is 'starboard' for the rocket?), the varying speed which changes > >>> drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given > >>> movement of the joystick, and the sheer quickness with which things > >>> happen > >>> during ascent. Hint folks, there's good reason why active guidance > >>> systems on aircraft(and for that matter, antilock brakes) use reaction > >>> times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike your > >>> reflexes are, you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have catlike > >>> reflexes that fast. > >>> +McG+ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. > >>> > Ken, > >>> > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) > >>> > > >>> > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. > >>> > > >>> > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) > >>> > > >>> > Cheers, > >>> > Robert > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > >>> > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > >>> > [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] > >>> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM > >>> > To: Krausert, Robert > >>> > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > >>> > > >>> > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, > >>> > discussion. ;-) > >>> > > >>> > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket > >>> > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. > >>> > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to > >>> glide > >>> > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, > >>> > but > >>> I > >>> > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than > >>> most > >>> > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise > >>> > altitude > >>> > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. > >>> > > >>> > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm > >>> thinking > >>> of > >>> > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC > >>> > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all > >>> > confused(now > >>> > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it > >>> > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it > >>> is > >>> > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! > >>> > > >>> > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near > >>> apogee. > >>> > See my previous post about standard sequence. > >>> > > >>> > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at > >>> > length > >>> > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for > >>> very > >>> > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly > >>> > impossible > >>> > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But > >>> > gliders on descent is another matter. > >>> > +McG+ > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >>>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not > >>> something > >>> >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any > >>> motor > >>> >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can > >>> ever > >>> >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or > >>> >>> LCOing, > >>> >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to > >>> physically > >>> >>> remove me as LCO. > >>> >> > >>> >> Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using > >>> >> them. > >>> >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a > >>> risk > >>> >> of > >>> >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And > >>> >> now > >>> >> you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on > >>> someone. > >>> >> Nope. > >>> >> > >>> >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink > >>> telemetry. > >>> >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad > >>> >> thing. > >>> >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they > >>> can > >>> >> do > >>> >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it > >>> >> straight > >>> >> during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" > >>> >> > >>> >> Cheers, > >>> >> Robert > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >>> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >>> >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark > >>> >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM > >>> >> To: Christopher Guenther > >>> >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition > >>> system > >>> >> > >>> >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. > >>> >> > >>> >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting > >>> in > >>> >> a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical > >>> switch > >>> >> is just adding another point of failure. > >>> >> > >>> >> The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort > >>> >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so > >>> that > >>> >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch > >>> >> rockets in your face. > >>> >> > >>> >> my .02 > >>> >> > >>> >> -- Greg > >>> >> > >>> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther > >>> >> wrote: > >>> >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making > >>> >>> everything > >>> >>> wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and > >>> >>> other > >>> >>> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely > >>> >>> wireless. > >>> >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all > >>> hooked > >>> >>> into > >>> >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver > >>> >>> combination's at > >>> >>> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > >>> >>> avenue. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual > >>> >>> deployment > >>> >>> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key > >>> switch > >>> >>> in > >>> >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose > >>> >>> to. > >>> >>> I > >>> >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that > >>> I > >>> >>> could > >>> >>> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 > >>> >>> channel > >>> >>> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and > >>> >>> wire > >>> >>> it to > >>> >>> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything > >>> >>> from > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc > >>> vehicles > >>> >>> and I > >>> >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. > >>> >>> Now > >>> >>> when > >>> >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a > >>> 7 > >>> >>> channel > >>> >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch > >>> >>> ignition. > >>> >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it > >>> for > >>> >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second > >>> >>> stage > >>> >>> or > >>> >>> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus > >>> >>> eliminating > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> need for wires to the LCO table. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. > >>> >>> Make > >>> >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off > >>> >>> position. > >>> >>> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be > >>> >>> hooked > >>> >>> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait > >>> >>> for > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know > >>> that > >>> >>> you > >>> >>> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup > >>> >>> completely > >>> >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You > >>> >>> could > >>> >>> even > >>> >>> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the > >>> >>> flight > >>> >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The > >>> >>> system > >>> >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your > >>> continuity > >>> >>> status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear > >>> >>> your > >>> >>> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch > >>> trigger > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards > >>> >>> the > >>> >>> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, > >>> >>> apogee, > >>> >>> and > >>> >>> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to >>> >>> style="text-decoration: > >>> >>> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. > >>> >>> Research > >>> >>> it > >>> >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related > >>> >>> hoops > >>> >>> to > >>> >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to > >>> >>> have > >>> >>> NAR > >>> >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before > >>> it > >>> >>> would > >>> >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and > >>> I > >>> >>> will > >>> >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from > >>> >>> either > >>> >>> NAR > >>> >>> or TRA. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Any input on this is welcome. > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>> Rockets mailing list > >>> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> Rockets mailing list > >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> Rockets mailing list > >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Rockets mailing list > >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sat Nov 14 00:01:13 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:01:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <10ac50d19e1ae543ac4da9982624d187.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Bill munds wrote: > kinda like a heat seeker? Yes, same basic principle. In fact, a sunseeker could actually be designed as a heat seeker although solar cells are the usual sensor. Not that very many many sunseeker rockets have been built. My original concept back then was to try to make the smallest, simplest, cheapest sunseeker I could think of. Maybe even something which could work with Estes motors. Would have worked if I could have found rare earth magnets in the right size and shape. But alas, I needed them magnetized across the diameter of a cylinder and the standard configuration is discs magnetized normal to the faces. Wasn't practical to work with the magnets I could afford. The key to keeping sunseeker guidance politically correct is to carefully design them to not be able to home on anything but the sun. Even then, they are rather controversial. But nobody dragged Gassaway away in cuffs. +McG+ >> Date: Fri=2C 13 Nov 2009 22:58:48 -0800 >> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com >> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >>=20 >> Hmmm. The third and fourth points come together on the subject of >> sunseeker guidance. Not human control of fins but definitely active >> guidance using steering vanes. Only capable of homing on the sun. But >> not necessarily perfectly predictable either. And it always has been >> somewhat politically contentious within the hobby. >>=20 >> I've got half-finished plans along those lines that go back at least ten >> years. Didn't want to reproduce George Gassaway's sunseeker rocket and >> got stuck on a technical matter of DIY servo design. >>=20 >> That'd make for a good bone of contention here. >>=20 >> Of course=2C in real life I'd never ask to launch a sunseeker at an OROC >> launch that I hadn't thoroughly ground tested and flown before >> elsewhere.= > =20 >> But it's possible someday I may. OROC has three Brothers launches in the >> seasonal window. Due to NAR/TRA rules and practical considerations it >> would have to fly within a month or so of the summer solstice and around >> high noon in a fairly clear sky. And at Brothers that would mean back >> over the flight line so it would have to go from the hill or the old >> away >> cell to the west. Or EX Friday when the prez isn't there....heh. >>=20 >> Sunseeker active guidance using fin control. So=2C Robert=2C are those >> go= > od >> 'nuff fightin' words? :) >>=20 >> +McG+ >>=20 >>=20 >> > First=2C I didn't like taking the LCO out. The wink and nod=2C and you >> = > control >> > the igintion. No I don't like. You said later not to take the LCO out= > =2C but >> > your original message did. >> > >> > Second=2C the hail Mary was interesting=2C I said that. It will not >> sav= > e the >> > rocket=2C but that's not what HM is about. Still not a fan. >> > >> > Third=2C I said don't ask me about fin control. That's all I asked. >> Has= > n't >> > been asked here yet. But some of the folks trying to get into OROC >> have >> > asked. And as always=2C No Way. Gliders ok. >> > >> > Forth=2C Ken - as for the drunken brawl at the meeting... So far I'm >> no= > t >> > work >> > conflicted and should be there. I'm there for that. =3B-) >> > >> > Cheers=2C >> > Robert >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Christopher Guenther" >> > To: >> > Cc: >> > Sent: Friday=2C November 13=2C 2009 7:59 PM >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system >> > >> > >> >> Again there is no steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting >> >> motors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry of >> >> all >> >> your avionics. Also being able to arm the system from the flight line >> >> which >> >> will make it much safer than having it go off in your face when you >> ar= > m >> >> it >> >> on the pad if something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like >> >> the >> >> ability to set off any unspent charges from a distance when walking >> up >> >> on >> >> its landing zone saving any chance of injury during recovery. >> >> >> >> On Fri=2C Nov 13=2C 2009 at 7:53 PM=2C >> = > wrote: >> >> >> >>> Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC >> >>> meeting >> >>> over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL >> >>> >> >>> People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now=2C >> >>> *which* >> >>> way is 'starboard' for the rocket?)=2C the varying speed which >> change= > s >> >>> drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a >> giv= > en >> >>> movement of the joystick=2C and the sheer quickness with which >> things >> >>> happen >> >>> during ascent. Hint folks=2C there's good reason why active guidance >> >>> systems on aircraft(and for that matter=2C antilock brakes) use >> react= > ion >> >>> times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike >> you= > r >> >>> reflexes are=2C you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have >> catlike >> >>> reflexes that fast. >> >>> +McG+ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that >> happen. >> >>> > Ken=2C >> >>> > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. =3B-) >> >>> > >> >>> > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. >> >>> > >> >>> > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. =3B-) >> >>> > >> >>> > Cheers=2C >> >>> > Robert >> >>> > >> >>> > -----Original Message----- >> >>> > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> >>> > [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] >> >>> > Sent: Friday=2C November 13=2C 2009 4:54 PM >> >>> > To: Krausert=2C Robert >> >>> > Cc: Greg Clark=3B Christopher Guenther=3B rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition >> syst= > em >> >>> > >> >>> > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er= > =2C >> >>> > discussion. =3B-) >> >>> > >> >>> > One of the projects I'm working on is=2C in NAR terminology=2C a >> ro= > cket >> >>> > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. >> >>> > First=2C a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to >> >>> glide >> >>> > all that well=2C think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an >> altimete= > r=2C >> >>> > but >> >>> I >> >>> > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than >> >>> most >> >>> > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise >> >>> > altitude >> >>> > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. >> >>> > >> >>> > Second=2C some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm >> >>> thinking >> >>> of >> >>> > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC >> >>> > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all >> >>> > confused(now >> >>> > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile >> = > it >> >>> > into=2C oh=2C say=2C the club president... :) And having me >> steerin= > g it >> >>> is >> >>> > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! >> >>> > >> >>> > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near >> >>> apogee. >> >>> > See my previous post about standard sequence. >> >>> > >> >>> > As for steering rockets during ascent=2C this has been discussed >> at >> >>> > length >> >>> > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even >> f= > or >> >>> very >> >>> > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly >> >>> > impossible >> >>> > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow=2C not no way! >> B= > ut >> >>> > gliders on descent is another matter. >> >>> > +McG+ >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >>>From an LCO stand point=2C taking physical control away is not >> >>> something >> >>> >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me=2C >> any >> >>> motor >> >>> >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can >> >>> ever >> >>> >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or >> >>> >>> LCOing=2C >> >>> >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to >> >>> physically >> >>> >>> remove me as LCO. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Downlink telemetry=2C now that's cool. Many in OROC have been >> usin= > g >> >>> >> them. >> >>> >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a >> >>> risk >> >>> >> of >> >>> >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. >> An= > d >> >>> >> now >> >>> >> you have an airframe=2C nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on >> >>> someone. >> >>> >> Nope. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink >> >>> telemetry. >> >>> >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a >> ba= > d >> >>> >> thing. >> >>> >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if >> they >> >>> can >> >>> >> do >> >>> >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it >> >>> >> straight >> >>> >> during flight." My answer has always been the same=2C "no way!!!" >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Cheers=2C >> >>> >> Robert >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> >>> >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark >> >>> >> Sent: Friday=2C November 13=2C 2009 6:55 AM >> >>> >> To: Christopher Guenther >> >>> >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition >> >>> system >> >>> >> >> >>> >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. >> Putting >> >>> in >> >>> >> a wireless=2C computer controlled switch in place of the physical >> >>> switch >> >>> >> is just adding another point of failure. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> The wireless launch controller is different beast=3B Usually some >> = > sort >> >>> >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so >> >>> that >> >>> >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally >> launc= > h >> >>> >> rockets in your face. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> my .02 >> >>> >> >> >>> >> -- Greg >> >>> >> >> >>> >> On Fri=2C Nov 13=2C 2009 at 12:00 AM=2C Christopher Guenther >> >>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making >> >>> >>> everything >> >>> >>> wireless. This of course started with my phones=2C computers=2C >> a= > nd >> >>> >>> other >> >>> >>> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely >> >>> >>> wireless. >> >>> >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all >> >>> hooked >> >>> >>> into >> >>> >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have > >>> >>> http://www.spektrumrc.com/">Spektrum radio and receiver >> >>> >>> combination's at >> >>> >>> reasonable prices=2C I see no reason not to explore and research >> = > this >> >>> >>> avenue. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual >> >>> >>> deployment >> >>> >>> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key >> >>> switch >> >>> >>> in >> >>> >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I >> choo= > se >> >>> >>> to. >> >>> >>> I >> >>> >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so >> tha= > t >> >>> I >> >>> >>> could >> >>> >>> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 >> >>> >>> channel >> >>> >>> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and >> >>> >>> wire >> >>> >>> it to >> >>> >>> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up >> everything >> >>> >>> from >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc >> >>> vehicles >> >>> >>> and I >> >>> >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to >> rocketry= > . >> >>> >>> Now >> >>> >>> when >> >>> >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to >> = > a >> >>> 7 >> >>> >>> channel >> >>> >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch >> >>> >>> ignition. >> >>> >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend >> it >> >>> for >> >>> >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second >> >>> >>> stage >> >>> >>> or >> >>> >>> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus >> >>> >>> eliminating >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> need for wires to the LCO table. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to >> g= > o. >> >>> >>> Make >> >>> >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off >> >>> >>> position. >> >>> >>> Put it on the pad=2C insert ematches in motors(they should >> alread= > y be >> >>> >>> hooked >> >>> >>> into the spectrum system)=2C and walk back to the flight line. >> Wa= > it >> >>> >>> for >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know >> >>> that >> >>> >>> you >> >>> >>> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup >> >>> >>> completely >> >>> >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You >> >>> >>> could >> >>> >>> even >> >>> >>> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the >> >>> >>> flight >> >>> >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. >> The >> >>> >>> system >> >>> >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your >> >>> continuity >> >>> >>> status. Once everything comes back good=2C and you should also >> he= > ar >> >>> >>> your >> >>> >>> altimeter beeping=2C Start the count down. When you say launch >> >>> trigger >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race >> toward= > s >> >>> >>> the >> >>> >>> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed=2C >> >>> >>> apogee=2C >> >>> >>> and >> >>> >>> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to > >>> >>> style=3D"text-decoration: >> >>> >>> underline=3B">TRY to make it a reality. >> >>> >>> Research >> >>> >>> it >> >>> >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related >> >>> >>> hoops >> >>> >>> to >> >>> >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have >> t= > o >> >>> >>> have >> >>> >>> NAR >> >>> >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable >> before >> >>> it >> >>> >>> would >> >>> >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby >> an= > d >> >>> I >> >>> >>> will >> >>> >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial >> from >> >>> >>> either >> >>> >>> NAR >> >>> >>> or TRA. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Any input on this is welcome. >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> >>> Rockets mailing list >> >>> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> >> Rockets mailing list >> >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> >> Rockets mailing list >> >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Rockets mailing list >> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> > >> > >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>=20 > = > > --_93dbe1a3-5fbe-404b-b4e9-0b3d397c28c7_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > kinda like a heat seeker?





> FONT-FA= > MILY: 'Segoe UI'=2CTahoma=2Csan-serif"> > > >
= > href=3D"http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3DEML_WLHM_GreaterGood= > "> BORDE= > R-LEFT-STYLE: none=3B BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none" alt=3D"i'm" > src=3D"http://= > gfx1.hotmail.com/mail/w4/pr01/ltr/i_charity.gif"> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER > = > GOOD
FONT-SI= > ZE: 8pt=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px=3B COLOR: #3fb555=3B PADDING-TOP: 0px=3B > TEX= > T-DECORATION: underline">Join > me

&n= > bsp=3B
>=3B Date: Fri=2C 13 Nov 2009 22:58:48 -0800
>=3B From: > km= > cgoffin at worldaccessnet.com
>=3B To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com
>= > =3B CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com
>=3B Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless > a= > vionics arming and ignition system
>=3B
>=3B Hmmm. The third > and= > fourth points come together on the subject of
>=3B sunseeker > guidance= > . Not human control of fins but definitely active
>=3B guidance using > = > steering vanes. Only capable of homing on the sun. But
>=3B not > necess= > arily perfectly predictable either. And it always has been
>=3B > somewh= > at politically contentious within the hobby.
>=3B
>=3B I've got > = > half-finished plans along those lines that go back at least ten
>=3B > y= > ears. Didn't want to reproduce George Gassaway's sunseeker rocket > and
&g= > t=3B got stuck on a technical matter of DIY servo design.
>=3B >
>= > =3B That'd make for a good bone of contention here.
>=3B
>=3B > Of= > course=2C in real life I'd never ask to launch a sunseeker at an > OROC
&= > gt=3B launch that I hadn't thoroughly ground tested and flown before > elsewh= > ere.
>=3B But it's possible someday I may. OROC has three Brothers > la= > unches in the
>=3B seasonal window. Due to NAR/TRA rules and > practical= > considerations it
>=3B would have to fly within a month or so of the > = > summer solstice and around
>=3B high noon in a fairly clear sky. And > a= > t Brothers that would mean back
>=3B over the flight line so it would > = > have to go from the hill or the old away
>=3B cell to the west. Or EX > = > Friday when the prez isn't there....heh.
>=3B
>=3B Sunseeker > act= > ive guidance using fin control. So=2C Robert=2C are those good
>=3B > 'n= > uff fightin' words? :)
>=3B
>=3B +McG+
>=3B
>=3B >
= > >=3B >=3B First=2C I didn't like taking the LCO out. The wink and nod= > =2C and you control
>=3B >=3B the igintion. No I don't like. You > sai= > d later not to take the LCO out=2C but
>=3B >=3B your original > messa= > ge did.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Second=2C the hail Mary was > inter= > esting=2C I said that. It will not save the
>=3B >=3B rocket=2C but > = > that's not what HM is about. Still not a fan.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B > &g= > t=3B Third=2C I said don't ask me about fin control. That's all I asked. > Ha= > sn't
>=3B >=3B been asked here yet. But some of the folks trying to > = > get into OROC have
>=3B >=3B asked. And as always=2C No Way. > Gliders= > ok.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Forth=2C Ken - as for the drunken > br= > awl at the meeting... So far I'm not
>=3B >=3B work
>=3B > >=3B= > conflicted and should be there. I'm there for that. =3B-)
>=3B > >=3B= >
>=3B >=3B Cheers=2C
>=3B >=3B Robert
>=3B >=3B ----- > = > Original Message -----
>=3B >=3B From: "Christopher Guenther" > <=3B= > guentherchristopher at gmail.com>=3B
>=3B >=3B To: > <=3Bkmcgoffin at wo= > rldaccessnet.com>=3B
>=3B >=3B Cc: > <=3Brockets at rocketsnw.com>= > =3B
>=3B >=3B Sent: Friday=2C November 13=2C 2009 7:59 PM
>=3B > = > >=3B Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition > syste= > m
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B Again there is > n= > o steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting
>=3B >=3B>=3B > m= > otors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry > of
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B all
>=3B >=3B>=3B your avionics. Also being able > = > to arm the system from the flight line
>=3B >=3B>=3B > which
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B will make it much safer than having it go off in your > face= > when you arm
>=3B >=3B>=3B it
>=3B >=3B>=3B on the pad > i= > f something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like
>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B the
>=3B >=3B>=3B ability to set off any unspent charges > fro= > m a distance when walking up
>=3B >=3B>=3B on
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B its landing zone saving any chance of injury during > recovery.
>=3B= > >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B On Fri=2C Nov 13=2C 2009 at 7:53 > PM=2C= > <=3Bkmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com>=3B wrote:
>=3B > >=3B>=3B
= > >=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl > = > at the next OROC
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B meeting
>=3B >=3B>= > =3B>=3B over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! > LOL
&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B People seem to > forget= > about details like roll stabilization(Now=2C
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > = > *which*
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B way is 'starboard' for the > rocket?)=2C= > the varying speed which changes
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B drastically > t= > hroughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given
>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B movement of the joystick=2C and the sheer quickness with > which= > things
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B happen
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > du= > ring ascent. Hint folks=2C there's good reason why active guidance
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B systems on aircraft(and for that matter=2C antilock > = > brakes) use reaction
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B times of like 0.01 > second= > and even less. I don't care how catlike your
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > = > reflexes are=2C you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have > catlike
&g= > t=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B reflexes that fast.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > +M= > cG+
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B
>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B Glider on decent on RC > = > control is different. I've seen that happen.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > &= > gt=3B Ken=2C
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B that's fine. Just try not > = > to steer it into me too many time. =3B-)
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >= > =3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B I'm apposed to guided rockets > durin= > g boost/ascent.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B
>=3B > >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B >=3B Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. > =3B-)>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B >> Cheer= > s=2C
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B Robert
>=3B >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B -----Original > Message----- R>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B From: > kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com
&g= > t=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B > [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com]
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B Sent: Friday=2C November 13=2C 2009 4:54 > PM R>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B To: Krausert=2C Robert
>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B>=3B >=3B Cc: Greg Clark=3B Christopher Guenther=3B > rockets at rocket= > snw.com
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] > Wirele= > ss avionics arming and ignition system
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B<= > BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B Oh goody! I and the club pres. are > abou= > t to engage in an arg...er=2C
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B > discussio= > n. =3B-)
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > &= > gt=3B One of the projects I'm working on is=2C in NAR terminology=2C a > rock= > et
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B glider. I have in mind two possible > = > RC control functions for this.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B > First=2C= > a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to
>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B glide
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B all that well=2C > thi= > nk more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter=2C
>=3B > >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B >=3B but
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B I
>=3B >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude > tha= > n
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B most
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B > des= > cending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise
>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B>=3B >=3B altitude
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B > measure= > ment. I'll be looking into this in detail later.
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B Second=2C some RC control > du= > ring glide is highly desirable. I'm
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > thinking R>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B of
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B > limiting= > this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC
>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B >=3B control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't > get= > all
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B confused(now
>=3B >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally > cruise= > missile it
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B into=2C oh=2C say=2C the > cl= > ub president... :) And having me steering it
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > i= > s
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B another good reason for > laundry-on-de= > mand!
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >= > =3B Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or > near
&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B apogee.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B See > my= > previous post about standard sequence.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B= >
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B As for steering rockets during > ascent= > =2C this has been discussed at
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B > length R>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B years ago and everyone concluded that > th= > is is very difficult even for
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B very
>=3B > &= > gt=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders > = > and utterly
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B impossible
>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B >=3B for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow=2C > n= > ot no way! But
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B gliders on descent is > an= > other matter.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B +McG+
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B
>=3B > >=3B>=3B= > >=3B >=3B>=3B>=3BFrom an LCO stand point=2C taking physical > control= > away is not
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B something
>=3B > >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too > many= > . For me=2C any
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B motor
>=3B > >=3B>=3B&g= > t=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B (more like a torch) in the face is not something > "I= > 'm sorry" can
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B ever
>=3B >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in > = > charge of or
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > LCOing=2C
&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B even if NAR &=3B TRA > approve= > d it. Club members would need to
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > physically>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B remove me as LCO.
>=3B >> &= > gt=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B > Do= > wnlink telemetry=2C now that's cool. Many in OROC have been > using
>=3B= > >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B them.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run > a
= > >=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B risk
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B > of= >
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B deployment on the pad while > folk= > s could be one a few feet away. And
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B now
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B you have an airframe=2C > n= > osecone and laundry to land. Maybe on
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > someone.= >
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B Nope.
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B Sorry I'm doom > a= > nd gloom on this idea. Except the downlink
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > tel= > emetry.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B Anything wireless that > "c= > ontrols" the rocket is in my opinion a bad
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B thing.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B Don't even get > m= > e started on how many people have asked me if they
>=3B > >=3B>=3B&g= > t=3B can
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B do
>=3B >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me > = > to keep it
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B straight
>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B during flight." My answer has always been the > = > same=2C "no way!!!"
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B Cheers=2C
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B Robert
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B > = > >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B -----Original Message-----
>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com
>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com]
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B On Behalf Of Greg Clark
>=3B >= > =3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B Sent: Friday=2C November 13=2C 2009 6:55 > AM>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B To: Christopher Guenther
>=3B >> = > >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com
>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming > = > and ignition
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B system
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B I don't think a > = > wireless "safety" switch is a good idea.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >= > =3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B The whole reason for > th= > e physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > in= >
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B a wireless=2C computer > controlle= > d switch in place of the physical
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > switch
&g= > t=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B is just adding another point of > failur= > e.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > &= > gt=3B>=3B The wireless launch controller is different beast=3B Usually > so= > me sort
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B of digitally encoded > chan= > el (think garage door opener) is used so
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > that<= > BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B the dude flying his wireless > heli= > copter doesn't accidentally launch
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>= > =3B rockets in your face.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B my .02
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B -- Greg
>=3B >= > =3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B On > F= > ri=2C Nov 13=2C 2009 at 12:00 AM=2C Christopher Guenther
>=3B > >=3B&g= > t=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B <=3Bguentherchristopher at gmail.com>=3B > wrote:>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B For a while now I have been >> i= > ntrigued by the idea of making
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B everything
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B wireless. > Th= > is of course started with my phones=2C computers=2C and
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B other
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>= > =3B>=3B things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets > completely<= > BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B wireless.
>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B I am talking about a dual deployment system > = > with telemetry all
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B hooked
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B into
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B= > >=3B some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have <=3Ba > href=3D"= >
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > http://www.spektrumrc.com/= > ">=3BSpektrum radio and receiver<=3B/a>=3B
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B combination's at
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B reasonable prices=2C I see no reason not to explore and > resear= > ch this
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B avenue.
>=3B > &= > gt=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a > dual R>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B deployment
>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B system that has an arming key switch. I > plan= > to leave the key
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B switch
>=3B >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B in
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B&g= > t=3B place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I > choose>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B to.
>=3B >> >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B I
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > wo= > uld drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that
>=3B > = > >=3B>=3B>=3B I
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > could<= > BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B hook up a servo. I would > in= > stall the servo and hook it into a 7
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B channel
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > receiver.= > I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B wire
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B= > >=3B it to
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B the dual > deplo= > yment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything
>=3B > >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B from
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B the
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B altimeter. The > tele= > metry system is made for all kinds of Rc
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > vehic= > les
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B and I
>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B do not think it would be that hard to > conver= > t it over to rocketry.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > Now<= > BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B when
>=3B > >=3B>=3B= > >=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B that is all set up if you are using anything > from= > a 2 channel to a
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B 7
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B channel
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B system you can use your extra channels for things like > ematch
>=3B= > >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B ignition.
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B This can be done on clusters as well but I would > not= > recommend it
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B for
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>=3B= > >=3B>=3B>=3B staging or air starting as you may be out of range at > t= > he second
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B stage
>=3B > &= > gt=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B or
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels > thus
&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B eliminating
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B the
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B need for wires to the LCO table.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B If you have > eve= > rything set up right and your rocket is ready to go.
>=3B > >=3B>=3B= > >=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B Make
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the > off
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B position.
>=3B > >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B Put it on the pad=2C insert ematches in > motors(the= > y should already be
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > hooked<= > BR>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B into the spectrum system)= > =2C and walk back to the flight line. Wait
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B>=3B for
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > the
= > >=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B LCO to announce your rocket. > A= > t this point you let the LCO know
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > that
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B you
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > = > >=3B>=3B>=3B wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are > = > setup
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B completely
>=3B > = > >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B wireless and that there is no LCO > wir= > e going to your rocket. You
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B>=3B= > could
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B even
>=3B >= > =3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B have them all go out and check it. When > = > every one is back at the
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > fl= > ight
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B line then you can > turn= > on the system by activating the servo. The
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > &g= > t=3B>=3B>=3B system
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > wil= > l warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B continuity
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > status= > . Once everything comes back good=2C and you should also hear
>=3B > >= > =3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B your
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B altimeter beeping=2C Start the count down. When you say > launch= >
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B trigger
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B&g= > t=3B>=3B the
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B channel > that= > your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B the
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you > speed=2C
&g= > t=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B apogee=2C
>=3B > >=3B>=3B= > >=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B and
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser.
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>= > =3B I feel this is a sound idea and am going to <=3Bspan
>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B style=3D"text-decoration:
>=3B > >=3B&= > gt=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > underline=3B">=3B<=3Bstrong>=3BTRY<= > =3B/strong>=3B<=3B/span>=3B to make it a reality.
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B Research
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B&g= > t=3B>=3B it
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B inside and > ou= > t as there is most likely some safety issue related
>=3B > >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B hoops
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B to
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B jump through > regardi= > ng both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>=3B= > >=3B>=3B>=3B have
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > NA= > R
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B and TRA test the system > a= > nd ensure it is safe and reliable before
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > it>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B would
>=3B >> >=3B>=3B&= > gt=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B ever be seen in operation at an event. After all > i= > t is my baby and
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B I
>=3B >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B will
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > >=3B>=3B>=3B= > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from
>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B either
>=3B > >=3B>=3B>= > =3B >=3B>=3B>=3B NAR
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > = > or TRA.
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B
>=3B > >=3B>= > =3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B Any input on this is welcome.
>=3B > >=3B= > >=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > ___________________________________________= > ____
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B Rockets mailing > list R>>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B > Rockets at rocketsnw.com
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> = > > --_93dbe1a3-5fbe-404b-b4e9-0b3d397c28c7_-- > From vincesimoneau at msn.com Sat Nov 14 00:18:56 2009 From: vincesimoneau at msn.com (Vince Simoneau) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:18:56 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B897@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><5d312285db0f39abf81b7d14e975ddeb.squirrel@www.wa-net.com><0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4616B8E5@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><47a54bc15fb6c0aedd8b49904a39980e.squirrel@www.wa-net.com>, , Message-ID: WWVD . . . . . . What would Vern do ? > From: appusher at q.com > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:23:26 +0000 > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > kinda like a heat seeker? > > > > > > > > > > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > Join me > > > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:58:48 -0800 > > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com > > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > Hmmm. The third and fourth points come together on the subject of > > sunseeker guidance. Not human control of fins but definitely active > > guidance using steering vanes. Only capable of homing on the sun. But > > not necessarily perfectly predictable either. And it always has been > > somewhat politically contentious within the hobby. > > > > I've got half-finished plans along those lines that go back at least ten > > years. Didn't want to reproduce George Gassaway's sunseeker rocket and > > got stuck on a technical matter of DIY servo design. > > > > That'd make for a good bone of contention here. > > > > Of course, in real life I'd never ask to launch a sunseeker at an OROC > > launch that I hadn't thoroughly ground tested and flown before elsewhere. > > But it's possible someday I may. OROC has three Brothers launches in the > > seasonal window. Due to NAR/TRA rules and practical considerations it > > would have to fly within a month or so of the summer solstice and around > > high noon in a fairly clear sky. And at Brothers that would mean back > > over the flight line so it would have to go from the hill or the old away > > cell to the west. Or EX Friday when the prez isn't there....heh. > > > > Sunseeker active guidance using fin control. So, Robert, are those good > > 'nuff fightin' words? :) > > > > +McG+ > > > > > > > First, I didn't like taking the LCO out. The wink and nod, and you control > > > the igintion. No I don't like. You said later not to take the LCO out, but > > > your original message did. > > > > > > Second, the hail Mary was interesting, I said that. It will not save the > > > rocket, but that's not what HM is about. Still not a fan. > > > > > > Third, I said don't ask me about fin control. That's all I asked. Hasn't > > > been asked here yet. But some of the folks trying to get into OROC have > > > asked. And as always, No Way. Gliders ok. > > > > > > Forth, Ken - as for the drunken brawl at the meeting... So far I'm not > > > work > > > conflicted and should be there. I'm there for that. ;-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Robert > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Christopher Guenther" > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > > > >> Again there is no steering the rocket intended. It is for igniting > > >> motors/ejection charges and a full live down link on the telemetry of > > >> all > > >> your avionics. Also being able to arm the system from the flight line > > >> which > > >> will make it much safer than having it go off in your face when you arm > > >> it > > >> on the pad if something was wired wrong by mistake. I also would like > > >> the > > >> ability to set off any unspent charges from a distance when walking up > > >> on > > >> its landing zone saving any chance of injury during recovery. > > >> > > >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:53 PM, wrote: > > >> > > >>> Oh c'mon. We can at least get in a drunken brawl at the next OROC > > >>> meeting > > >>> over the details of how to lock out the RC until apogee! LOL > > >>> > > >>> People seem to forget about details like roll stabilization(Now, > > >>> *which* > > >>> way is 'starboard' for the rocket?), the varying speed which changes > > >>> drastically throughout the boost how the rocket will respond to a given > > >>> movement of the joystick, and the sheer quickness with which things > > >>> happen > > >>> during ascent. Hint folks, there's good reason why active guidance > > >>> systems on aircraft(and for that matter, antilock brakes) use reaction > > >>> times of like 0.01 second and even less. I don't care how catlike your > > >>> reflexes are, you're NOT that fast! Even my cats don't have catlike > > >>> reflexes that fast. > > >>> +McG+ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Glider on decent on RC control is different. I've seen that happen. > > >>> > Ken, > > >>> > that's fine. Just try not to steer it into me too many time. ;-) > > >>> > > > >>> > I'm apposed to guided rockets during boost/ascent. > > >>> > > > >>> > Sorry. Did I kill the argument? Should we argue more. ;-) > > >>> > > > >>> > Cheers, > > >>> > Robert > > >>> > > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > > >>> > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > >>> > [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] > > >>> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:54 PM > > >>> > To: Krausert, Robert > > >>> > Cc: Greg Clark; Christopher Guenther; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > >>> > > > >>> > Oh goody! I and the club pres. are about to engage in an arg...er, > > >>> > discussion. ;-) > > >>> > > > >>> > One of the projects I'm working on is, in NAR terminology, a rocket > > >>> > glider. I have in mind two possible RC control functions for this. > > >>> > First, a "laundry on demand" button. By design it's not going to > > >>> glide > > >>> > all that well, think more like "semi-glider." I'd use an altimeter, > > >>> > but > > >>> I > > >>> > may want to pop the parachute out at a rather lower altitude than > > >>> most > > >>> > descending rockets and the slipstream may interfere with precise > > >>> > altitude > > >>> > measurement. I'll be looking into this in detail later. > > >>> > > > >>> > Second, some RC control during glide is highly desirable. I'm > > >>> thinking > > >>> of > > >>> > limiting this to a simple default circling with a "go straight" RC > > >>> > control. Mostly keeping it that simple so *I* won't get all > > >>> > confused(now > > >>> > which way is port for the glider?) and accidentally cruise missile it > > >>> > into, oh, say, the club president... :) And having me steering it > > >>> is > > >>> > another good reason for laundry-on-demand! > > >>> > > > >>> > Obviously all RC functions will be locked out until apogee or near > > >>> apogee. > > >>> > See my previous post about standard sequence. > > >>> > > > >>> > As for steering rockets during ascent, this has been discussed at > > >>> > length > > >>> > years ago and everyone concluded that this is very difficult even for > > >>> very > > >>> > experienced RC flyers with regular rocket gliders and utterly > > >>> > impossible > > >>> > for rockets with faster ascent profiles. Not nohow, not no way! But > > >>> > gliders on descent is another matter. > > >>> > +McG+ > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> >>>From an LCO stand point, taking physical control away is not > > >>> something > > >>> >>> I'd be willing to do. One accident is way too many. For me, any > > >>> motor > > >>> >>> (more like a torch) in the face is not something "I'm sorry" can > > >>> ever > > >>> >>> fix. I'd never allow it at a launch I was either in charge of or > > >>> >>> LCOing, > > >>> >>> even if NAR & TRA approved it. Club members would need to > > >>> physically > > >>> >>> remove me as LCO. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Downlink telemetry, now that's cool. Many in OROC have been using > > >>> >> them. > > >>> >> And maybe a wireless "hail Mary" charge. But then you still run a > > >>> risk > > >>> >> of > > >>> >> deployment on the pad while folks could be one a few feet away. And > > >>> >> now > > >>> >> you have an airframe, nosecone and laundry to land. Maybe on > > >>> someone. > > >>> >> Nope. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Sorry I'm doom and gloom on this idea. Except the downlink > > >>> telemetry. > > >>> >> Anything wireless that "controls" the rocket is in my opinion a bad > > >>> >> thing. > > >>> >> Don't even get me started on how many people have asked me if they > > >>> can > > >>> >> do > > >>> >> wireless fin control at a launch. "It will allow me to keep it > > >>> >> straight > > >>> >> during flight." My answer has always been the same, "no way!!!" > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Cheers, > > >>> >> Robert > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> -----Original Message----- > > >>> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > >>> >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > >>> >> On Behalf Of Greg Clark > > >>> >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 AM > > >>> >> To: Christopher Guenther > > >>> >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition > > >>> system > > >>> >> > > >>> >> I don't think a wireless "safety" switch is a good idea. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> The whole reason for the physical arming switch is SAFETY. Putting > > >>> in > > >>> >> a wireless, computer controlled switch in place of the physical > > >>> switch > > >>> >> is just adding another point of failure. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> The wireless launch controller is different beast; Usually some sort > > >>> >> of digitally encoded chanel (think garage door opener) is used so > > >>> that > > >>> >> the dude flying his wireless helicopter doesn't accidentally launch > > >>> >> rockets in your face. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> my .02 > > >>> >> > > >>> >> -- Greg > > >>> >> > > >>> >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Christopher Guenther > > >>> >> wrote: > > >>> >>> For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making > > >>> >>> everything > > >>> >>> wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and > > >>> >>> other > > >>> >>> things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely > > >>> >>> wireless. > > >>> >>> I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all > > >>> hooked > > >>> >>> into > > >>> >>> some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver > > >>> >>> combination's at > > >>> >>> reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > > >>> >>> avenue. > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual > > >>> >>> deployment > > >>> >>> system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key > > >>> switch > > >>> >>> in > > >>> >>> place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose > > >>> >>> to. > > >>> >>> I > > >>> >>> would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that > > >>> I > > >>> >>> could > > >>> >>> hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 > > >>> >>> channel > > >>> >>> receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and > > >>> >>> wire > > >>> >>> it to > > >>> >>> the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything > > >>> >>> from > > >>> >>> the > > >>> >>> altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc > > >>> vehicles > > >>> >>> and I > > >>> >>> do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. > > >>> >>> Now > > >>> >>> when > > >>> >>> that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a > > >>> 7 > > >>> >>> channel > > >>> >>> system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch > > >>> >>> ignition. > > >>> >>> This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it > > >>> for > > >>> >>> staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second > > >>> >>> stage > > >>> >>> or > > >>> >>> air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus > > >>> >>> eliminating > > >>> >>> the > > >>> >>> need for wires to the LCO table. > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. > > >>> >>> Make > > >>> >>> sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off > > >>> >>> position. > > >>> >>> Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be > > >>> >>> hooked > > >>> >>> into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait > > >>> >>> for > > >>> >>> the > > >>> >>> LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know > > >>> that > > >>> >>> you > > >>> >>> wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup > > >>> >>> completely > > >>> >>> wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You > > >>> >>> could > > >>> >>> even > > >>> >>> have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the > > >>> >>> flight > > >>> >>> line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The > > >>> >>> system > > >>> >>> will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your > > >>> continuity > > >>> >>> status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear > > >>> >>> your > > >>> >>> altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch > > >>> trigger > > >>> >>> the > > >>> >>> channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards > > >>> >>> the > > >>> >>> heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, > > >>> >>> apogee, > > >>> >>> and > > >>> >>> deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> I feel this is a sound idea and am going to > >>> >>> style="text-decoration: > > >>> >>> underline;">TRY to make it a reality. > > >>> >>> Research > > >>> >>> it > > >>> >>> inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related > > >>> >>> hoops > > >>> >>> to > > >>> >>> jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to > > >>> >>> have > > >>> >>> NAR > > >>> >>> and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before > > >>> it > > >>> >>> would > > >>> >>> ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and > > >>> I > > >>> >>> will > > >>> >>> not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from > > >>> >>> either > > >>> >>> NAR > > >>> >>> or TRA. > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> Any input on this is welcome. > > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> >>> Rockets mailing list > > >>> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > > >>> >> Rockets mailing list > > >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >>> >> > > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > > >>> >> Rockets mailing list > > >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Rockets mailing list > > >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >>> > > >>> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rockets mailing list > > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From vincesimoneau at msn.com Sat Nov 14 01:00:23 2009 From: vincesimoneau at msn.com (Vince Simoneau) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:00:23 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, Have you considered the effective range of Spektroms transmitters ? I thought about the same app, however, as an avid sport heli flyer. . . the range and delicacy of the small transevers are the limiting factor. I have them break-down from ..heat..shock..cold..shock...air....shock......voltage.................... > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely wireless. > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked into > some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver combination's at > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this avenue. > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual deployment > system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch in > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. I > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I could > hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel > receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire it to > the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from the > altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles and I > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now when > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 channel > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage or > air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating the > need for wires to the LCO table. > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. Make > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off position. > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be hooked > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for the > LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that you > wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup completely > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could even > have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the flight > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The system > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger the > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, and > deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to TRY to make it a reality. Research it > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops to > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to have NAR > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it would > ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I will > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either NAR > or TRA. > > Any input on this is welcome. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From vincesimoneau at msn.com Sat Nov 14 01:05:25 2009 From: vincesimoneau at msn.com (Vince Simoneau) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:05:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Li-po's batteries rule and are the future of small app control ... high amp short burst....the ionic layer issue still needs too be addressed and as I understand the lastest blurb... it's being solved as we ( I ) speak... V From: vincesimoneau at msn.com To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:00:23 -0800 Chris, Have you considered the effective range of Spektroms transmitters ? I thought about the same app, however, as an avid sport heli flyer. . . the range and delicacy of the small transevers are the limiting factor. I have them break-down from ..heat..shock..cold..shock...air....shock......voltage.................... > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely wireless. > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked into > some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver combination's at > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this avenue. > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual deployment > system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch in > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. I > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I could > hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel > receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire it to > the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from the > altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles and I > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now when > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 channel > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage or > air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating the > need for wires to the LCO table. > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. Make > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off position. > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be hooked > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for the > LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that you > wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup completely > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could even > have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the flight > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The system > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger the > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, and > deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to TRY to make it a reality. Research it > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops to > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to have NAR > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it would > ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I will > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either NAR > or TRA. > > Any input on this is welcome. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From vincesimoneau at msn.com Sat Nov 14 01:13:14 2009 From: vincesimoneau at msn.com (Vince Simoneau) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:13:14 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Also, as 2.4G is the "newest" it's also the most used, The FCC has limited "wireless" to 2.4g or the old 27m or 75m...either way, you will need to deal with the FCC for "long range" wireless. V > From: vincesimoneau at msn.com > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:00:23 -0800 > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > Chris, Have you considered the effective range of Spektroms transmitters ? > > I thought about the same app, however, as an avid sport heli flyer. . . the range and delicacy of the small transevers are the limiting factor. > > I have them break-down from ..heat..shock..cold..shock...air....shock......voltage.................... > > > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 > > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > > wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > > things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely wireless. > > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked into > > some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver combination's at > > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this avenue. > > > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual deployment > > system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch in > > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. I > > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I could > > hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel > > receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire it to > > the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from the > > altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles and I > > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now when > > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 channel > > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage or > > air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating the > > need for wires to the LCO table. > > > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. Make > > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off position. > > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be hooked > > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for the > > LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that you > > wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup completely > > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could even > > have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the flight > > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The system > > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > > status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger the > > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > > heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, and > > deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to TRY to make it a reality. Research it > > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops to > > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to have NAR > > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it would > > ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I will > > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either NAR > > or TRA. > > > > Any input on this is welcome. > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From arrsales at cox.net Sat Nov 14 05:47:58 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:47:58 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] I love Blue Tube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091114134809643.ZIWR7524@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com> Thank you. I appreciate it! P.S. Got a pic of it? I'm building a "customer projects" page on my site. *Ryan Williams is not a paid sponsor and this transmission cannot be rebroadcast without the express written consent of Major League Baseball. All Rights Reserved. Rrrrrrandy www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Williams Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:59 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] I love Blue Tube I flew a 38mm Blue Tube rocket with a 29mm motor at the October launch in Mansfield, Washington. This was the rockets first flight; I plan on using 38mm motors in it. The flight went flawlessly. This is a 51 inch tall rocket that's based on the Screech XL kit, but with Blue Tube replacing the paper body. I have to say that I am very happy with Blue Tube. I have three new projects in various stages of completion and they all utilize Blue Tube. I look forward to getting my hands on Blue Tube 2.0. I know I'm going to have some fun at the fall launch next year with my new 54mm Blue Tube rockets! _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhadv at pacifier.com Sat Nov 14 06:37:28 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 06:37:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114063303.00c4fa88@mail.iinet.com> Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking missile is strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free room and board it might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. And now for the free advice, when you test the missile make sure and do it on Federal Ground so you go to the Federal hate factory versus the state. Better food or so they tell me. From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 08:08:44 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114063303.00c4fa88@mail.iinet.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114063303.00c4fa88@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? If that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that should not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich wrote: > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking missile is > strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free room and board it > might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. And now for the free > advice, when you test the missile make sure and do it on Federal Ground so > you go to the Federal hate factory versus the state. Better food or so they > tell me. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From arrsales at cox.net Sat Nov 14 08:34:28 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:34:28 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091114163439360.DKJC5052@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> Two words: "Government Contract" Get yerself one of those and you can make your very own Minuteman II. :) -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:09 AM To: Paul Bogdanich Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? If that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that should not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich wrote: > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking > missile is strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free > room and board it might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. > And now for the free advice, when you test the missile make sure and > do it on Federal Ground so you go to the Federal hate factory versus > the state. Better food or so they tell me. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 08:37:13 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:37:13 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? Message-ID: I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust ring in place. From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 08:38:16 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:38:16 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: <20091114163439360.DKJC5052@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> References: <20091114163439360.DKJC5052@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: You can't get a government contract unless you have a product in the first place. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > Two words: > > "Government Contract" Get yerself one of those and you can make your very > own Minuteman II. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:09 AM > To: Paul Bogdanich > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? If > that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that should > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich > wrote: > > > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking > > missile is strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free > > room and board it might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. > > And now for the free advice, when you test the missile make sure and > > do it on Federal Ground so you go to the Federal hate factory versus > > the state. Better food or so they tell me. > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From appusher at q.com Sat Nov 14 08:42:52 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:42:52 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, You can go to Rouse-Tech's site. http://www.rouse-tech.com/images/technical1.png Hardware spec are there. Bill at PSP EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:37:13 -0800 > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the > casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust > ring in place. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From bar0051 at homenetnw.net Sat Nov 14 08:43:13 2009 From: bar0051 at homenetnw.net (Bryon Schopp) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:43:13 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? References: Message-ID: Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" To: Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? >I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the > casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust > ring in place. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 08:47:45 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:47:45 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I want to put a forward thrust ring in 1 for added insurance the motor will not fly up through the rocket even though it is minimum diameter and 2 so that I can fit in a light adapter to use 38mm and also not have it fly up through the airframe. Just a bit of extra precaution on my part. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Bryon Schopp wrote: > Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but > the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM > > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the >> casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust >> ring in place. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> > > From bigredbee at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 09:00:12 2009 From: bigredbee at gmail.com (Greg Clark) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:00:12 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: References: <20091114163439360.DKJC5052@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: Then I guess you're outta luck! On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Christopher Guenther wrote: > You can't get a government contract unless you have a product in the first > place. > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > >> Two words: >> >> "Government Contract" Get yerself one of those and you can make your very >> own Minuteman II. ?:) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:09 AM >> To: Paul Bogdanich >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> >> Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? ?If >> that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that should >> not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. ?Seriously! >> >> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich >> wrote: >> >> > Two points. ?First the main problem is the space required for the rear >> > actuators and the nozzle design. ?Second, building a heat seeking >> > missile is strictly forboden. ?If you need twenty years or so of free >> > room and board it might be a good idea. ?Let me know how it works out. >> > And now for the free advice, when you test the missile make sure and >> > do it on Federal Ground so you go to the Federal hate factory versus >> > the state. ?Better food or so they tell me. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 09:04:20 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:04:20 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: References: <20091114163439360.DKJC5052@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: LOL I have no interest in going militaristic anyway. Have no Idea how the heat seeking topic started. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Greg Clark wrote: > Then I guess you're outta luck! > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Christopher Guenther > wrote: > > You can't get a government contract unless you have a product in the > first > > place. > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Always Ready Rocketry >wrote: > > > >> Two words: > >> > >> "Government Contract" Get yerself one of those and you can make your > very > >> own Minuteman II. :) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: > rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >> On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:09 AM > >> To: Paul Bogdanich > >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > >> > >> Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? > If > >> that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that > should > >> not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear > >> > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking > >> > missile is strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free > >> > room and board it might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. > >> > And now for the free advice, when you test the missile make sure and > >> > do it on Federal Ground so you go to the Federal hate factory versus > >> > the state. Better food or so they tell me. > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockets mailing list > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > From absworld at cet.com Sat Nov 14 09:06:10 2009 From: absworld at cet.com (Bob & Ann Yanecek) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:06:10 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02c901ca654c$c48cc480$4da64d80$@com> Is your goal altitude or just the desire to 'mess' with all the minimum diameter hassle factors? By fixing your fin can length, you also limit (elimintate?) your ability to maximize airframe L/D other than for a singlength of motor. Most of my minimum diameter projects tend to get long such that I prefer using the forward end of the motor as coupler (shaves several inches off the OAL). I'm rebuilding CouldBL3 in a 98mm minimum diameter configuration with plans of utilizing a 75mm MMT adapter that incorporates an aft thrust ring. Still noodling on just how to ensure a strong 75mm push doesn't end up pushing directly on the aft end of my AV bay (back-up forward thrust ring ;-) Though, given my recent shred history, I should be focusing on fin design/construction more than anything else. Bob Yanecek -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:48 AM To: Bryon Schopp Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? I want to put a forward thrust ring in 1 for added insurance the motor will not fly up through the rocket even though it is minimum diameter and 2 so that I can fit in a light adapter to use 38mm and also not have it fly up through the airframe. Just a bit of extra precaution on my part. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Bryon Schopp wrote: > Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but > the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM > > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the >> casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust >> ring in place. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 09:29:47 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:29:47 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? In-Reply-To: <02c901ca654c$c48cc480$4da64d80$@com> References: <02c901ca654c$c48cc480$4da64d80$@com> Message-ID: I do not intend to go after any altitude records but am interested in playing with ways to positively contain/retain the motor. I also am thinking about using a U bolt on the forward thrust ring for the mounting of a shock cord and zip tie to the forward enclosure. It will be dual deployment and I want to keep it as short as possible. Basicly only the length needed to house the motor, apogee laundry, av-bay, main laundry, and a nose cone. Not sure what to do about the fins yet but I think dado, then class them, thin metal bracket braces, then glass again. I am not really sure what to do about the fins as you can tell I guess. I am just building from scratch for fun and to keep myself busy and my mind working. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Bob & Ann Yanecek wrote: > Is your goal altitude or just the desire to 'mess' with all the minimum > diameter hassle factors? > By fixing your fin can length, you also limit (elimintate?) your ability to > maximize airframe L/D other than for a singlength of motor. > Most of my minimum diameter projects tend to get long such that I prefer > using the forward end of the motor as coupler (shaves several inches off > the > OAL). > > I'm rebuilding CouldBL3 in a 98mm minimum diameter configuration with plans > of utilizing a 75mm MMT adapter that incorporates an aft thrust ring. > Still noodling on just how to ensure a strong 75mm push doesn't end up > pushing directly on the aft end of my AV bay (back-up forward thrust ring > ;-) > > Though, given my recent shred history, I should be focusing on fin > design/construction more than anything else. > > Bob Yanecek > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:48 AM > To: Bryon Schopp > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > I want to put a forward thrust ring in 1 for added insurance the motor will > not fly up through the rocket even though it is minimum diameter and 2 so > that I can fit in a light adapter to use 38mm and also not have it fly up > through the airframe. Just a bit of extra precaution on my part. > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Bryon Schopp > wrote: > > > Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but > > the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM > > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > > > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long > the > >> casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust > >> ring in place. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 09:48:06 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:48:06 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Message-ID: I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but I would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these methods have been. From franklyd62 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 09:44:20 2009 From: franklyd62 at yahoo.com (lloyd humez) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:44:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] case cleaning clarification. Message-ID: <694112.15100.qm@web50003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have a pile of dirty motor cases that finally need cleaning; and since I have the habit of plowing ahead, then ask questions after the disaster.... I am looking for some clarity on how to not make a pile for the recycler. How long do you soak and at what strength of vinegar to loosen up the crud inside the tubes? Then you rinse and dry and then treat with the "break free"??? All I know that ?dawn? in not cutting it after they sit for a while? Thanks in advance, Lloyd Hum?z L2 ? TRA 11370 From arrsales at cox.net Sat Nov 14 10:00:06 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:00:06 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091114180016802.EYKC5052@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> The AT 54/2560 is 21.625" and the Loki 54mm L is the 54/2800 is 28.6" They have a 40" 54mm L case too! -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:37 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust ring in place. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhadv at pacifier.com Sat Nov 14 10:04:31 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:04:31 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Casing length In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114095716.03f9eb38@mail.iinet.com> "Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. One odes not need one. However if the motor pushes against a thrust bulkhead then the inertial forces and drag forces are split with the bulkhead only having to support the weight on top of it and the nose cone drag while the tail section along with its mass and drag is being pulled along for the ride. This is important in large high performance designs as it allows one to make the rocket of lighter construction by splitting the stresses. However, as a practical matter in our rockets maximum dynamic pressure is almost always reached just as the motor comes up to pressure so such extravagant lengths are relatively meaningless which is why all the motor retainers have a thrust ring in them so the motor pushes from the bottom. Additionally pushing against a ring at the bottom allows you to use different motors without an adapter whereas pushing against a bulkhead requires a full length motor or an adapter. At 09:30 AM 11/14/2009 -0800, you wrote: >Send Rockets mailing list submissions to > rockets at rocketsnw.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > rockets-request at rocketsnw.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > rockets-owner at rocketsnw.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Rockets digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 54mm/2560 casing length? (Bryon Schopp) > 2. Re: 54mm/2560 casing length? (Christopher Guenther) > 3. Re: Heat Seeking? (Greg Clark) > 4. Re: Heat Seeking? (Christopher Guenther) > 5. Re: 54mm/2560 casing length? (Bob & Ann Yanecek) > 6. Re: 54mm/2560 casing length? (Christopher Guenther) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:43:13 -0800 >From: "Bryon Schopp" >To: "Christopher Guenther" , > >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > >Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but >the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Christopher Guenther" >To: >Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM >Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > >I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the > > casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust > > ring in place. > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:47:45 -0800 >From: Christopher Guenther >To: Bryon Schopp >Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >I want to put a forward thrust ring in 1 for added insurance the motor will >not fly up through the rocket even though it is minimum diameter and 2 so >that I can fit in a light adapter to use 38mm and also not have it fly up >through the airframe. Just a bit of extra precaution on my part. > >On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Bryon Schopp wrote: > > > Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but > > the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM > > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > > > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the > >> casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust > >> ring in place. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:00:12 -0800 >From: Greg Clark >To: Christopher Guenther >Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >Then I guess you're outta luck! > >On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Christopher Guenther > wrote: > > You can't get a government contract unless you have a product in the first > > place. > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Always Ready Rocketry > wrote: > > > >> Two words: > >> > >> "Government Contract" Get yerself one of those and you can make your very > >> own Minuteman II. ?:) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >> On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:09 AM > >> To: Paul Bogdanich > >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > >> > >> Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? ?If > >> that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that should > >> not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. ?Seriously! > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Two points. ?First the main problem is the space required for the rear > >> > actuators and the nozzle design. ?Second, building a heat seeking > >> > missile is strictly forboden. ?If you need twenty years or so of free > >> > room and board it might be a good idea. ?Let me know how it works out. > >> > And now for the free advice, when you test the missile make sure and > >> > do it on Federal Ground so you go to the Federal hate factory versus > >> > the state. ?Better food or so they tell me. > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockets mailing list > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:04:20 -0800 >From: Christopher Guenther >To: Greg Clark >Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >LOL I have no interest in going militaristic anyway. Have no Idea how the >heat seeking topic started. > >On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Greg Clark wrote: > > > Then I guess you're outta luck! > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Christopher Guenther > > wrote: > > > You can't get a government contract unless you have a product in the > > first > > > place. > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Always Ready Rocketry > >wrote: > > > > > >> Two words: > > >> > > >> "Government Contract" Get yerself one of those and you can make your > > very > > >> own Minuteman II. :) > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: > > rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > >> On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > > >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:09 AM > > >> To: Paul Bogdanich > > >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > >> > > >> Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? > > If > > >> that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that > > should > > >> not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! > > >> > > >> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear > > >> > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking > > >> > missile is strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free > > >> > room and board it might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. > > >> > And now for the free advice, when you test the missile make sure and > > >> > do it on Federal Ground so you go to the Federal hate factory versus > > >> > the state. Better food or so they tell me. > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Rockets mailing list > > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rockets mailing list > > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rockets mailing list > > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:06:10 -0800 >From: "Bob & Ann Yanecek" >To: "'NW Rocketry'" >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? >Message-ID: <02c901ca654c$c48cc480$4da64d80$@com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Is your goal altitude or just the desire to 'mess' with all the minimum >diameter hassle factors? >By fixing your fin can length, you also limit (elimintate?) your ability to >maximize airframe L/D other than for a singlength of motor. >Most of my minimum diameter projects tend to get long such that I prefer >using the forward end of the motor as coupler (shaves several inches off the >OAL). > >I'm rebuilding CouldBL3 in a 98mm minimum diameter configuration with plans >of utilizing a 75mm MMT adapter that incorporates an aft thrust ring. >Still noodling on just how to ensure a strong 75mm push doesn't end up >pushing directly on the aft end of my AV bay (back-up forward thrust ring >;-) > >Though, given my recent shred history, I should be focusing on fin >design/construction more than anything else. > >Bob Yanecek > > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther >Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:48 AM >To: Bryon Schopp >Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > >I want to put a forward thrust ring in 1 for added insurance the motor will >not fly up through the rocket even though it is minimum diameter and 2 so >that I can fit in a light adapter to use 38mm and also not have it fly up >through the airframe. Just a bit of extra precaution on my part. > >On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Bryon Schopp wrote: > > > Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but > > the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM > > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > > > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the > >> casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust > >> ring in place. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > >> > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:29:47 -0800 >From: Christopher Guenther >To: "Bob & Ann Yanecek" >Cc: NW Rocketry >Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >I do not intend to go after any altitude records but am interested in >playing with ways to positively contain/retain the motor. I also am >thinking about using a U bolt on the forward thrust ring for the mounting of >a shock cord and zip tie to the forward enclosure. It will be dual >deployment and I want to keep it as short as possible. Basicly only the >length needed to house the motor, apogee laundry, av-bay, main laundry, and >a nose cone. Not sure what to do about the fins yet but I think dado, then >class them, thin metal bracket braces, then glass again. I am not really >sure what to do about the fins as you can tell I guess. I am just building >from scratch for fun and to keep myself busy and my mind working. > >On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Bob & Ann Yanecek wrote: > > > Is your goal altitude or just the desire to 'mess' with all the minimum > > diameter hassle factors? > > By fixing your fin can length, you also limit (elimintate?) your ability to > > maximize airframe L/D other than for a singlength of motor. > > Most of my minimum diameter projects tend to get long such that I prefer > > using the forward end of the motor as coupler (shaves several inches off > > the > > OAL). > > > > I'm rebuilding CouldBL3 in a 98mm minimum diameter configuration with plans > > of utilizing a 75mm MMT adapter that incorporates an aft thrust ring. > > Still noodling on just how to ensure a strong 75mm push doesn't end up > > pushing directly on the aft end of my AV bay (back-up forward thrust ring > > ;-) > > > > Though, given my recent shred history, I should be focusing on fin > > design/construction more than anything else. > > > > Bob Yanecek > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:48 AM > > To: Bryon Schopp > > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > > I want to put a forward thrust ring in 1 for added insurance the motor will > > not fly up through the rocket even though it is minimum diameter and 2 so > > that I can fit in a light adapter to use 38mm and also not have it fly up > > through the airframe. Just a bit of extra precaution on my part. > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Bryon Schopp > > wrote: > > > > > Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but > > > the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > > > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM > > > > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > > > > > > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long > > the > > >> casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust > > >> ring in place. > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rockets mailing list > > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Rockets mailing list >Rockets at rocketsnw.com >http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >End of Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 58 >*************************************** From scott at scottsrockets.com Sat Nov 14 10:07:27 2009 From: scott at scottsrockets.com (Scott T Bowers) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:07:27 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] case cleaning clarification. In-Reply-To: <694112.15100.qm@web50003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <694112.15100.qm@web50003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Why would you put a thrust ring forward? The AT motors have aft thrust rings. Use no forward thrust ring and you can use any motor you want. Scott T. Bowers www.scottsrockets.com -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of lloyd humez Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:44 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] case cleaning clarification. I have a pile of dirty motor cases that finally need cleaning; and since I have the habit of plowing ahead, then ask questions after the disaster.... I am looking for some clarity on how to not make a pile for the recycler. How long do you soak and at what strength of vinegar to loosen up the crud inside the tubes? Then you rinse and dry and then treat with the "break free"??? All I know that ?dawn? in not cutting it after they sit for a while Thanks in advance, Lloyd Hum?z L2 ? TRA 11370 _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 10:11:31 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:11:31 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Message-ID: Chris, I slot the tube just big enough for the root, then I wrap thin plastic around a motor casing and slide it into the tube. Then I use thin CA to attach the fins. After the CA dries, slide the casing out. Next step is to fillet using JB Weld. I form mine with a PVC pipe, but as long as you get a nice radius so that your cloth doesn't have to make a sharp angle, you'll be fine. Then do your tip to tip glassing using your cloth and resin of choice. I use CF and aeropoxy. Best of luck, Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 9:49:03 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but I would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these methods have been. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 10:19:09 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:19:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006501ca6556$f61c40c0$e254c240$@net> I do something similar, but I use a series of about 2 or 3 short slots with matching tabs on the fin root and good epoxy with filler. I thoughts are that using slots helps maintain the airframe integrity and filled epoxy does a better job of filling the gaps I typically get from imperfect slotting. May need to try Mike's method since he has pushed rockets harder than I. Marty PS Sorry to Mike for sending the first copy only to him. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Mfreptiles at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:12 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Chris, I slot the tube just big enough for the root, then I wrap thin plastic around a motor casing and slide it into the tube. Then I use thin CA to attach the fins. After the CA dries, slide the casing out. Next step is to fillet using JB Weld. I form mine with a PVC pipe, but as long as you get a nice radius so that your cloth doesn't have to make a sharp angle, you'll be fine. Then do your tip to tip glassing using your cloth and resin of choice. I use CF and aeropoxy. Best of luck, Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 9:49:03 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but I would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these methods have been. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 10:23:25 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:23:25 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Guided rockets(was Wireless avionics arming and ignition system) Message-ID: AFIK, guided rockets are not banned by TRA or NAR. There are a few in the hobby with the ability to do it. I'm not one of them. :) The hobby is continually evolving. In 10 or 20 years, active guidance in hobby rockets might be more commonplace, most likely starting with gyros for simple stability. We'll think back to this thread and laugh. At this point, BALLS would be the perfect venue for such an ambitious flight. Mike F. In a message dated 11/13/2009 11:00:06 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com writes: I've got half-finished plans along those lines that go back at least ten years. Didn't want to reproduce George Gassaway's sunseeker rocket and got stuck on a technical matter of DIY servo design. That'd make for a good bone of contention here. From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 10:25:16 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:25:16 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? In-Reply-To: <02c901ca654c$c48cc480$4da64d80$@com> References: <02c901ca654c$c48cc480$4da64d80$@com> Message-ID: <006601ca6557$d1dde1e0$7599a5a0$@net> I use a combination of shear panels and all thread rod to hold these mounts together. The shear panel is thin plywood that runs between the front and rear centering rings to transfer the load from the motor mount to the centering rings. The thin all thread (6-32 or 8-24 typically) runs alongside the plywood to insure that the rear centering ring stays attached. Making the back of the adapter from aluminum plate perhaps 3/16" thick would give a very solid ledge to push against the aft end if the larger motor mount. However, in this case the all thread or at least some bolts/screws will be essential since epoxy does not bond very well to aluminum. Correct etching helps, but I would still be leery about a pure tension joint. Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Bob & Ann Yanecek Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:06 AM To: 'NW Rocketry' Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? Is your goal altitude or just the desire to 'mess' with all the minimum diameter hassle factors? By fixing your fin can length, you also limit (elimintate?) your ability to maximize airframe L/D other than for a singlength of motor. Most of my minimum diameter projects tend to get long such that I prefer using the forward end of the motor as coupler (shaves several inches off the OAL). I'm rebuilding CouldBL3 in a 98mm minimum diameter configuration with plans of utilizing a 75mm MMT adapter that incorporates an aft thrust ring. Still noodling on just how to ensure a strong 75mm push doesn't end up pushing directly on the aft end of my AV bay (back-up forward thrust ring ;-) Though, given my recent shred history, I should be focusing on fin design/construction more than anything else. Bob Yanecek -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:48 AM To: Bryon Schopp Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? I want to put a forward thrust ring in 1 for added insurance the motor will not fly up through the rocket even though it is minimum diameter and 2 so that I can fit in a light adapter to use 38mm and also not have it fly up through the airframe. Just a bit of extra precaution on my part. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Bryon Schopp wrote: > Why do you need a forward thrust ring? Maybe I am missing something, but > the aft closure acts as a thrust ring and you do not need one in front. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM > > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the >> casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust >> ring in place. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 10:30:32 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:30:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114063303.00c4fa88@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started the active guidance topic nor do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. I did however ask why it is not legal that is all. You are barking at the wrong man. Check where Heat seeking started! I also do not believe that I said anything that would be offensive. You comments to me would be better of actually posted to the list and directed at the actual person that brought up active guidance which was not me. So James and Joe please do so. Joe Bevier to me show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) My understanding is the same as Paul's. That "actively guided" (vs./ passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets are illegal for most of us and highly restricted even to organizations that qualify. Something about security. . . . If you do a little searching on TRF or Rocketry planet you can probably find the source references about all of the federal laws involved. Radio back up deployment has saved the day many times. One student project I read about shreaded because by the time the students pushed the button on the RC back up deployment the rocket was already coming in too fast. It only takes a couple of seconds to get to that point. Maybe urban legend, but I also have read stories in the on line discussion forums of RC backups setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in the prep area accidentally. Dooooh! I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the Shuttle launch Monday Morning! See ya. james moroney to me show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? mailed-bymsn.com hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the other highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and reasonable rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, safe and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. While on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of rocket enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us who abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney wrote: > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the > other highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and > reasonable rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, safe > and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it > appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. While > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of rocket > enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us who > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 > > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > To: jhadv at pacifier.com > > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > > > Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? If > > that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that should > > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich > wrote: > > > > > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear > > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking > missile is > > > strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free room and > board it > > > might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. And now for the > free > > > advice, when you test the missile make sure and do it on Federal Ground > so > > > you go to the Federal hate factory versus the state. Better food or so > they > > > tell me. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 10:58:07 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:58:07 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Message-ID: I realized that I forgot a step. After the fins are tacked on with CA and the CA is dry, I dust some milled fiber powder in each fillet crease and lay it in nice and thick forming it with a finger tip, then soak heavily with CA. Then rough up with sandpaper and cover with JB Weld fillets. If you don't have milled fiber, get some. I use it for lots of stuff. Add to epoxy for strength, use it with CA for quick sturdy repairs. Mike In a message dated 11/14/2009 10:19:41 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, MartyWeiser at comcast.net writes: I do something similar, but I use a series of about 2 or 3 short slots with matching tabs on the fin root and good epoxy with filler. I thoughts are that using slots helps maintain the airframe integrity and filled epoxy does a better job of filling the gaps I typically get from imperfect slotting. May need to try Mike's method since he has pushed rockets harder than I. Marty PS Sorry to Mike for sending the first copy only to him. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Mfreptiles at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:12 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Chris, I slot the tube just big enough for the root, then I wrap thin plastic around a motor casing and slide it into the tube. Then I use thin CA to attach the fins. After the CA dries, slide the casing out. Next step is to fillet using JB Weld. I form mine with a PVC pipe, but as long as you get a nice radius so that your cloth doesn't have to make a sharp angle, you'll be fine. Then do your tip to tip glassing using your cloth and resin of choice. I use CF and aeropoxy. Best of luck, Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 9:49:03 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but I would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these methods have been. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 11:04:29 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:04:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] wireless avionics In-Reply-To: <49421.209.253.79.135.1258167336.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <49421.209.253.79.135.1258167336.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: Let me make one thing clear to all on the list. No where in my wireless idea is there any statement or implication of an form of remote or active guidance. I do not intend nor am I interested in guidance of any kind that is not already established within the hobby guide lines. I am however interested in making things safer. By adding in the ability to remote detonate an ejection charge you have many instances where it could and I do stress COULD help. for instance if your rocket has an issue in the first 5 seconds of flight and your mach delay is set to 10 seconds you can hit the remote and get your chutes out. Even if you shred them they will still help to slow the rocket a bit. Better then getting hit by something moving at mach or better don't you think? For anyone that thinks they need to add in active guidance to it keep it to yourself. Anyone else that wants to send me hate mail about my trying to go with active guidance, which I clearly state I AM NOT, make sure you send it through the list because if you don't I will still copy it and post it to the list. I am done with some of the junk that gets sent to me when it should have been sent to the list and the right person or just keep it to yourself. On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:55 PM, wrote: > While it wouldn't be "wireless" if one realy was inerested in solving the > basic problem instead of gabbering about it why not just use fiber optic > strands with a simple emitter(s) on one end and receiver(s) on the other? > Cheap, small, lightweight and relatively easy. Again it wouldn't be > wireless but it would eliminate the wires. Just g;ue to fiber optic > strand to the body tube. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 11:07:07 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:07:07 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Message-ID: Sunseeker rockets are not heat seeking, they sense light. This active guidance thread is interesting because of the amount of people who believe active guidance to be banned by rocketry orgs. It is not, as long as you do not weaponize your rocket. So, don't do that. :) Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 10:31:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started the active guidance topic nor do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. I did however ask why it is not legal that is all. You are barking at the wrong man. Check where Heat seeking started! I also do not believe that I said anything that would be offensive. You comments to me would be better of actually posted to the list and directed at the actual person that brought up active guidance which was not me. So James and Joe please do so. Joe Bevier to me show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) My understanding is the same as Paul's. That "actively guided" (vs./ passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets are illegal for most of us and highly restricted even to organizations that qualify. Something about security. . . . If you do a little searching on TRF or Rocketry planet you can probably find the source references about all of the federal laws involved. Radio back up deployment has saved the day many times. One student project I read about shreaded because by the time the students pushed the button on the RC back up deployment the rocket was already coming in too fast. It only takes a couple of seconds to get to that point. Maybe urban legend, but I also have read stories in the on line discussion forums of RC backups setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in the prep area accidentally. Dooooh! I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the Shuttle launch Monday Morning! See ya. james moroney to me show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? mailed-bymsn.com hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the other highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and reasonable rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, safe and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. While on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of rocket enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us who abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney wrote: > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the > other highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and > reasonable rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, safe > and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it > appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. While > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of rocket > enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us who > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 > > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > To: jhadv at pacifier.com > > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > > > Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? If > > that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that should > > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich > wrote: > > > > > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear > > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking > missile is > > > strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free room and > board it > > > might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. And now for the > free > > > advice, when you test the missile make sure and do it on Federal Ground > so > > > you go to the Federal hate factory versus the state. Better food or so > they > > > tell me. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sb at berfield.com Sat Nov 14 11:35:39 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:35:39 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Message-ID: <200911141935.nAEJZdj0007180@omr14.networksolutionsemail.com> Never tried milled fibers with CA. Good and strong? I would think the ca would get brittle. -----Original Message----- From: Mfreptiles at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:58 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? I realized that I forgot a step. After the fins are tacked on with CA and the CA is dry, I dust some milled fiber powder in each fillet crease and lay it in nice and thick forming it with a finger tip, then soak heavily with CA. Then rough up with sandpaper and cover with JB Weld fillets. If you don't have milled fiber, get some. I use it for lots of stuff. Add to epoxy for strength, use it with CA for quick sturdy repairs. Mike In a message dated 11/14/2009 10:19:41 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, MartyWeiser at comcast.net writes: I do something similar, but I use a series of about 2 or 3 short slots with matching tabs on the fin root and good epoxy with filler. I thoughts are that using slots helps maintain the airframe integrity and filled epoxy does a better job of filling the gaps I typically get from imperfect slotting. May need to try Mike's method since he has pushed rockets harder than I. Marty PS Sorry to Mike for sending the first copy only to him. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Mfreptiles at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:12 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Chris, I slot the tube just big enough for the root, then I wrap thin plastic around a motor casing and slide it into the tube. Then I use thin CA to attach the fins. After the CA dries, slide the casing out. Next step is to fillet using JB Weld. I form mine with a PVC pipe, but as long as you get a nice radius so that your cloth doesn't have to make a sharp angle, you'll be fine. Then do your tip to tip glassing using your cloth and resin of choice. I use CF and aeropoxy. Best of luck, Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 9:49:03 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but I would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these methods have been. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 11:52:33 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:52:33 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Message-ID: I don't use it as the only attachment on critical stuff. I fill gaps with it, even filling mis-drilled holes in paper airframes, small gaps at the leading and trailing fin slots, etc. Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 11:35:53 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, sb at berfield.com writes: Never tried milled fibers with CA. Good and strong? I would think the ca would get brittle. From rocketsrfun at msn.com Sat Nov 14 13:19:11 2009 From: rocketsrfun at msn.com (Don Harris) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:19:11 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] case cleaning clarification. In-Reply-To: <694112.15100.qm@web50003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <694112.15100.qm@web50003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hope this helps Lloyd. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: lloyd humez To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:44 AM Subject: [RocketsNW] case cleaning clarification. I have a pile of dirty motor cases that finally need cleaning; and since I have the habit of plowing ahead, then ask questions after the disaster.... I am looking for some clarity on how to not make a pile for the recycler. How long do you soak (a good soak would be all night if your not going to use them today) and at what strength of vinegar to loosen up the crud inside (No pre-mix required...straight) the tubes? Then you rinse and dry and then treat with the "break free"??? (I would use the grease that came with your new closures. If you don't have that, use Vaseline. Break Free looses its cohesion after a while, and technically it's not meant to be a long term lubricant for threads.) All I know that ?dawn? in not cutting it after they sit for a while? (and it won't) Thanks in advance, Lloyd Hum?z L2 ? TRA 11370 _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lennyb at telus.net Sat Nov 14 12:26:56 2009 From: lennyb at telus.net (Len Bryan) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:26:56 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Guided rockets(was Wireless avionics arming andignition system) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There was a video floating around of an F or G motor flight where the rocket very nearly hovered. It pointed straight up while it did so. I can't imagine the controls required to make it happen. IIRC, this was done about 10 years ago. No MEMS gyros then. We had a local guy that tried to tell us that anything with guidance would be considered a missile and would land us in the slammer. I think as long as "up" is the goal, perhaps trying to fend off gravity turns and such, people could explore these things. Aiming at targets, whoa, that's a different ball game. Anyway, I do not have the skills or the resources to pursue a project like that. I certainly respect someone who can do it. Len Bryan P.S. I found a good detailed description of MEMS sensors at this url. http://www.sensorsmag.com/sensors/acceleration-vibration/an-overview-mems-in ertial-sensing-technology-970 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Mfreptiles at aol.com Sent: November 14, 2009 10:23 AM To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Guided rockets(was Wireless avionics arming andignition system) AFIK, guided rockets are not banned by TRA or NAR. There are a few in the hobby with the ability to do it. I'm not one of them. :) The hobby is continually evolving. In 10 or 20 years, active guidance in hobby rockets might be more commonplace, most likely starting with gyros for simple stability. We'll think back to this thread and laugh. At this point, BALLS would be the perfect venue for such an ambitious flight. Mike F. In a message dated 11/13/2009 11:00:06 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com writes: I've got half-finished plans along those lines that go back at least ten years. Didn't want to reproduce George Gassaway's sunseeker rocket and got stuck on a technical matter of DIY servo design. That'd make for a good bone of contention here. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From t.j.doll at att.net Sat Nov 14 13:52:07 2009 From: t.j.doll at att.net (t.j.doll at att.net) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:52:07 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Message-ID: <111420092152.5787.4AFF2687000BD7F40000169B22243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> Forgive my ignorance, but what is "milled fiber", and where do I get some? Tim >>If you don't have milled fiber, get some. I use it for lots of stuff. >>Add to epoxy for strength, use it with CA for quick sturdy repairs. >> >>Mike From scott at scottsrockets.com Sat Nov 14 14:45:59 2009 From: scott at scottsrockets.com (Scott T Bowers) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:45:59 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber In-Reply-To: <111420092152.5787.4AFF2687000BD7F40000169B22243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> References: <111420092152.5787.4AFF2687000BD7F40000169B22243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> Message-ID: It is fiberglass, short fibers, looks like a fluffy powder. Milled fiberglass fibers would be a better name. You can get similar in carbon. Scott T. Bowers www.scottsrockets.com -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of t.j.doll at att.net Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:52 PM To: Rocket Lost Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Forgive my ignorance, but what is "milled fiber", and where do I get some? Tim >>If you don't have milled fiber, get some. I use it for lots of stuff. >>Add to epoxy for strength, use it with CA for quick sturdy repairs. >> >>Mike _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jackanderson98012 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 15:08:50 2009 From: jackanderson98012 at hotmail.com (Jack Anderson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:08:50 -0700 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber In-Reply-To: References: <111420092152.5787.4AFF2687000BD7F40000169B22243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> Message-ID: Not sure where you are located, Tap Plastics has a store in Bellevue, WA or you can order online. http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=47& -------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott T Bowers" Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 3:45 PM To: ; "'Rocket Lost'" Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > It is fiberglass, short fibers, looks like a fluffy powder. Milled > fiberglass fibers would be a better name. You can get similar in carbon. > > > Scott T. Bowers > www.scottsrockets.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of t.j.doll at att.net > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:52 PM > To: Rocket Lost > Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > > Forgive my ignorance, but what is "milled fiber", and where do I get some? > > Tim > >>>If you don't have milled fiber, get some. I use it for lots of stuff. >>>Add to epoxy for strength, use it with CA for quick sturdy repairs. > >> >>>Mike > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From jackanderson98012 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 14 15:18:13 2009 From: jackanderson98012 at hotmail.com (Jack Anderson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:18:13 -0700 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber In-Reply-To: References: <111420092152.5787.4AFF2687000BD7F40000169B22243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> Message-ID: Looks like they have stores in Portland, OR; Tigard, OR ; Lynnwood, WA ; Seattle, WA and Bellevue, WA -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jack Anderson" Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 4:08 PM To: ; "'Rocket Lost'" Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > Not sure where you are located, Tap Plastics has a store in Bellevue, WA > or you can order online. > > http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=47& > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Scott T Bowers" > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 3:45 PM > To: ; "'Rocket Lost'" > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > >> It is fiberglass, short fibers, looks like a fluffy powder. Milled >> fiberglass fibers would be a better name. You can get similar in carbon. >> >> >> Scott T. Bowers >> www.scottsrockets.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of t.j.doll at att.net >> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:52 PM >> To: Rocket Lost >> Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber >> >> Forgive my ignorance, but what is "milled fiber", and where do I get >> some? >> >> Tim >> >>>>If you don't have milled fiber, get some. I use it for lots of stuff. >>>>Add to epoxy for strength, use it with CA for quick sturdy repairs. >> >> >>>>Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 16:21:30 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:21:30 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Message-ID: It is 1/32" lengths of fiberglass. Looks like powder. Binder Design used to carry it. I ran out and haven't restocked the store yet. Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 1:52:42 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, t.j.doll at att.net writes: Forgive my ignorance, but what is "milled fiber", and where do I get some? Tim From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 16:33:21 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:33:21 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber References: Message-ID: Does milled fiberglass actually add strength or just helps with forming/filling? Straight epoxy versus epoxy with milled glass. Just curious if it actually adds strength. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > It is 1/32" lengths of fiberglass. Looks like powder. Binder Design > used > to carry it. I ran out and haven't restocked the store yet. > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/14/2009 1:52:42 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > t.j.doll at att.net writes: > > Forgive my ignorance, but what is "milled fiber", and where do I get > some? > > Tim > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 17:43:48 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:43:48 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Message-ID: Milled fiber makes the joint three times stronger, and it helps make nicer fillets. Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 4:33:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: Does milled fiberglass actually add strength or just helps with forming/filling? Straight epoxy versus epoxy with milled glass. Just curious if it actually adds strength. Cheers, Robert From glech at aol.com Sat Nov 14 17:49:49 2009 From: glech at aol.com (Gary Lech) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:49:49 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC33AD0D0F576B-2E5C-10EBA@webmail-m066.sysops.aol.com> Now I'm curious. Which works better for fillets milled fiber or microbaloons. BTW, I haven't tried either and I'm in the middle of my first attempt at fiberglassing a scratch built rocket. Cheers from ~ Gary Lech Be sure to visit http://lech.is-a-geek.net -----Original Message----- From: Mfreptiles at aol.com To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; t.j.doll at att.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Milled fiber makes the joint three times stronger, and it helps make nicer illets. ike F. n a message dated 11/14/2009 4:33:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, awndart.robert at gmail.com writes: Does milled fiberglass actually add strength or just helps with orming/filling? Straight epoxy versus epoxy with milled glass. Just urious f it actually adds strength. Cheers, obert From bigredbee at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 17:55:18 2009 From: bigredbee at gmail.com (Greg Clark) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:55:18 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber In-Reply-To: <8CC33AD0D0F576B-2E5C-10EBA@webmail-m066.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC33AD0D0F576B-2E5C-10EBA@webmail-m066.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Microballoons are to make the epoxy easier to sand, and actually weaken it. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Gary Lech wrote: > > Now I'm curious. Which works better for fillets milled fiber or microbaloons. > > BTW, I haven't tried either and I'm in the middle of my first attempt at fiberglassing a scratch built rocket. > > Cheers from ~ > Gary Lech > Be sure to visit http://lech.is-a-geek.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; t.j.doll at att.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 5:43 pm > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > > > > Milled fiber makes the joint three times stronger, and it helps make nicer > illets. > > ike F. > > > n a message dated 11/14/2009 4:33:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > awndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > Does ?milled fiberglass actually add strength or just helps with > orming/filling? Straight epoxy versus epoxy with milled glass. Just > urious > f it actually adds ?strength. > Cheers, > obert > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From jhadv at pacifier.com Sat Nov 14 18:00:54 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (jhadv at pacifier.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:00:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Fellow rocketers: I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if possible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the coordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone provided you don't know how to read a map. Paul Bogdanich tra11654 at iinet.com From rnech at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 18:07:06 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:07:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96609.35159.qm@web111407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> SuperFil works for filling and sanding. It's a two part epoxy with the microballoons in it already. It's light, easy to sand, and does not shrink. http://www.polyfiber.com/products/superfilepoxyfiler.htm Robert --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Greg Clark wrote: > From: Greg Clark > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > To: "Gary Lech" > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 5:55 PM > Microballoons are to make the epoxy > easier to sand, and actually weaken it. > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Gary Lech > wrote: > > > > Now I'm curious. Which works better for fillets milled > fiber or microbaloons. > > > > BTW, I haven't tried either and I'm in the middle of > my first attempt at fiberglassing a scratch built rocket. > > > > Cheers from ~ > > Gary Lech > > Be sure to visit http://lech.is-a-geek.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; > t.j.doll at att.net; > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 5:43 pm > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > > > > > > > > Milled fiber makes the joint three times stronger, and > it helps make nicer > > illets. > > > > ike F. > > > > > > n a message dated 11/14/2009 4:33:45 P.M. Pacific > Standard Time, > > awndart.robert at gmail.com > writes: > > Does ?milled fiberglass actually add strength or just > helps with > > orming/filling? Straight epoxy versus epoxy with > milled glass. Just > > urious > > f it actually adds ?strength. > > Cheers, > > obert > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > From greg at bigredbee.com Sat Nov 14 18:09:26 2009 From: greg at bigredbee.com (Greg Clark) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:09:26 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP In-Reply-To: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: The older Garmin Etrex (the yellow one) is just about as bare bones as you can get. I had a Garmin Etrex Legend for a while, worked well, but died after about 4 years of steady use. I now have a Garmin Etrex Vista. It has an electronic compass instead of interpolating form the GPS data (only works while moving). Not sure I like it (the compass feature) a whole lot, but I guess I've never really used it too much. One bummer about that compass is it has to be held level to work. can't get much more bare-bones than this: http://tinyurl.com/yhpvqgo -- Greg On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:00 PM, wrote: > Fellow rocketers: > ? I need help. ?Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the > damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? ?As far as > accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if > possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if > possible. ?That's it. ?No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the > coordinates please. ?Is there such a device? ?I just spent half an hour > looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone > provided you don't know how to read a map. > > Paul Bogdanich > tra11654 at iinet.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 18:23:51 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:23:51 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP In-Reply-To: References: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: Go try http://www.bigredbee.com/ and mind your language! On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Greg Clark wrote: > The older Garmin Etrex (the yellow one) is just about as bare bones as > you can get. > > I had a Garmin Etrex Legend for a while, worked well, but died after > about 4 years of steady use. > > I now have a Garmin Etrex Vista. It has an electronic compass instead > of interpolating form the GPS data (only works while moving). Not > sure I like it (the compass feature) a whole lot, but I guess I've > never really used it too much. One bummer about that compass is it > has to be held level to work. > > can't get much more bare-bones than this: > > http://tinyurl.com/yhpvqgo > > > > -- Greg > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:00 PM, wrote: > > Fellow rocketers: > > I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the > > damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as > > accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if > > possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if > > possible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the > > coordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour > > looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone > > provided you don't know how to read a map. > > > > Paul Bogdanich > > tra11654 at iinet.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From gbhchrist at verizon.net Sat Nov 14 18:52:31 2009 From: gbhchrist at verizon.net (George Christ) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:52:31 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP In-Reply-To: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <360B08E615934DEAB942FDFA3BC2462F@LittleGoodBox> The Magellan eXplorist 100 is what you are looking for. Waterproof, does coordinates, compass, and simple tracks; no maps, no directions (other than straight-line course back to saved waypoints), no other bells/whistles to speak of...other than a backlight. I believe it floats, but I have not tested that... I've had mine for about 4-5 years and use it frequently for both Scouting and for establishing/following headings for rocket recovery. Great tool. George ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 6:00 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP > Fellow rocketers: > I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the > damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as > accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if > possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if > possible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the > coordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour > looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone > provided you don't know how to read a map. > > Paul Bogdanich > tra11654 at iinet.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From jhadv at pacifier.com Sat Nov 14 19:04:34 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (jhadv at pacifier.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:04:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS Help. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2704.76.115.45.22.1258254274.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Sorry about the tone of my original message but I get so frustrated with the search engines that it drives me to madness. One would think a simple search would have to common courtesy to at least display a bare bones device along with all the others but Noooo. You must have this and that and this over here and don't forget about..... Even the manufacturers web-sites try and steer you to the "fully featured" devices. It frustrates me. I'm not looking for a woman just a GPS receiver thank you very much. Sheeeesh. From glech at aol.com Sat Nov 14 19:04:23 2009 From: glech at aol.com (Gary Lech) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:04:23 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP In-Reply-To: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <8CC33B777B784F2-2E5C-1168C@webmail-m066.sysops.aol.com> My first thought was Greg's product: www.bigredbee.com But, here's another idea: http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/gps.php There's 2 versions the GPS2 and GPS3. I recently purchased the GPS2. It provides a standardized NMEA output. That's it. No displays, no screens, no nothing. Just the data. The company (a fellow HAM) is reputable and the support is great. Cheers from ~ Gary - WA7GL Be sure to visit http://lech.is-a-geek.net -----Original Message----- From: jhadv at pacifier.com To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 6:00 pm Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP Fellow rocketers: I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the amn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as ccessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if ossible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if ossible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the oordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour ooking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone rovided you don't know how to read a map. Paul Bogdanich ra11654 at iinet.com From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 19:16:57 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:16:57 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP Message-ID: I've got an older Garmin e-trex that's as basic as it gets. It was $99. Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 6:02:07 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jhadv at pacifier.com writes: Fellow rocketers: I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if possible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the coordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone provided you don't know how to read a map. Paul Bogdanich tra11654 at iinet.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From rnech at yahoo.com Sat Nov 14 19:23:42 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:23:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] LCROSS impact analysis: 'Significant' water found on Moon Message-ID: <643525.81147.qm@web111411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8359744.stm 'Significant' water found on Moon By Jonathan Amos Science reporter, BBC News (excerpt) Nasa's experiment last month to find water on the Moon was a major success, US scientists have announced. The space agency smashed a rocket and a probe into a large crater at the lunar south pole, hoping to kick up ice. Scientists who have studied the data now say instruments trained on the impact plume saw copious quantities of water-ice and water vapour. One researcher described this as the equivalent of "a dozen two-gallon buckets" of water. "We didn't just find a little bit; we found a significant amount," said Anthony Colaprete, chief scientist for the Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite (LCROSS) mission. (click the link to read the rest of the news article) From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 19:24:54 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:24:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS Help. In-Reply-To: <2704.76.115.45.22.1258254274.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <2704.76.115.45.22.1258254274.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: Next time if you are looking for rocket related sites please use the links page from the Northwestrocketry.com site and save yourself a lot of hassle. http://rocketsnw.com/?page_id=12 On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 7:04 PM, wrote: > Sorry about the tone of my original message but I get so frustrated with > the search engines that it drives me to madness. One would think a simple > search would have to common courtesy to at least display a bare bones > device along with all the others but Noooo. You must have this and that > and this over here and don't forget about..... Even the manufacturers > web-sites try and steer you to the "fully featured" devices. It > frustrates me. I'm not looking for a woman just a GPS receiver thank you > very much. Sheeeesh. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From sb at berfield.com Sat Nov 14 19:30:21 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:30:21 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Message-ID: <200911150330.nAF3ULYq030180@omr3.networksolutionsemail.com> Microballoons actually weaken the material. Makes for a nice easy to sand surface, but not strong. Milled glass adds strength - but is harder to sand. I usually do fibers in resin for the structure and sometimes skim over it with balloons. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lech Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 5:49 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Now I'm curious. Which works better for fillets milled fiber or microbaloons. BTW, I haven't tried either and I'm in the middle of my first attempt at fiberglassing a scratch built rocket. Cheers from ~ Gary Lech Be sure to visit http://lech.is-a-geek.net -----Original Message----- From: Mfreptiles at aol.com To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; t.j.doll at att.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Milled fiber makes the joint three times stronger, and it helps make nicer illets. ike F. n a message dated 11/14/2009 4:33:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, awndart.robert at gmail.com writes: Does milled fiberglass actually add strength or just helps with orming/filling? Straight epoxy versus epoxy with milled glass. Just urious f it actually adds strength. Cheers, obert _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 19:36:10 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:36:10 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LCROSS impact analysis: 'Significant' water found onMoon References: <643525.81147.qm@web111411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <62065DF655874124A02EEAFA95E1A71B@LaptopKrausert> Why are articles dumbed down these days, or have they always. Why report a "dozen 2 gallon buckets" and during the TV interview he was holding a 2 gallon bucket as an example/prop. Why not just say, approximately 24 gallons? At least they're with the times using such terms as "smash" and "plume" and "kick up." Oh well, back to Grand Theft Auto. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Nech" To: "Rockets NW" Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:23 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] LCROSS impact analysis: 'Significant' water found onMoon > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8359744.stm > 'Significant' water found on Moon > By Jonathan Amos > Science reporter, BBC News > > (excerpt) > Nasa's experiment last month to find water on the Moon was a major > success, US scientists have announced. > > The space agency smashed a rocket and a probe into a large crater at the > lunar south pole, hoping to kick up ice. > > Scientists who have studied the data now say instruments trained on the > impact plume saw copious quantities of water-ice and water vapour. > > One researcher described this as the equivalent of "a dozen two-gallon > buckets" of water. > > "We didn't just find a little bit; we found a significant amount," said > Anthony Colaprete, chief scientist for the Lunar Crater Observation and > Sensing Satellite (LCROSS) mission. > > (click the link to read the rest of the news article) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 19:39:02 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:39:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber References: <200911150330.nAF3ULYq030180@omr3.networksolutionsemail.com> Message-ID: <6D0F7F2978E64C56ADD228F9F27A78E5@LaptopKrausert> OK Scott, don't laugh at me. But do they sell "spray on" microballoons? Kind of like a rattle can thick primer/filler. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Berfield" To: "Gary Lech" ; Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > Microballoons actually weaken the material. Makes for a nice easy to sand > surface, but not strong. Milled glass adds strength - but is harder to > sand. I usually do fibers in resin for the structure and sometimes skim > over it with balloons. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Lech > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 5:49 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > > > Now I'm curious. Which works better for fillets milled fiber or > microbaloons. > > BTW, I haven't tried either and I'm in the middle of my first attempt at > fiberglassing a scratch built rocket. > > Cheers from ~ > Gary Lech > Be sure to visit http://lech.is-a-geek.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; t.j.doll at att.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 5:43 pm > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > > > > Milled fiber makes the joint three times stronger, and it helps make nicer > illets. > > ike F. > > > n a message dated 11/14/2009 4:33:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > awndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > Does milled fiberglass actually add strength or just helps with > orming/filling? Straight epoxy versus epoxy with milled glass. Just > urious > f it actually adds strength. > Cheers, > obert > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From carl20320 at msn.com Sat Nov 14 20:03:27 2009 From: carl20320 at msn.com (Carl Degner) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:03:27 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To use your own phrase: Next time if you are looking for rocket related sites please use the links page from the Northwestrocketry.com site and save yourself a lot of hassle. > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:37:13 -0800 > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] 54mm/2560 casing length? > > I am building a minimum diameter 54mm and would like to know how long the > casing is without the aft closure. This way I can set my forward thrust > ring in place. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 14 20:08:26 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:08:26 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber Message-ID: Microballoons weaken the joint. They are adding air bubbles. Air does not strengthen anything. Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 7:18:07 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, keithp at keithp.com writes: Any idea how that compares with micro balloons? They make nicer fillets, but I've always assumed they don't change the strength of the joint much. From jhadv at pacifier.com Sat Nov 14 20:13:40 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (jhadv at pacifier.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:13:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2798.76.115.45.22.1258258420.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> "Next time if you are looking for rocket related sites please use the links page from the Northwestrocketry.com site and save yourself a lot of hassle." You know when you say that you almost sound like you know what you are talking about. Almost. In the hobby what all of three months and already you know everything? Spare me and just ignore everything I post like I shall do with you forthwith. Best of luck. From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 20:49:29 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:49:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 64 In-Reply-To: <2798.76.115.45.22.1258258420.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <2798.76.115.45.22.1258258420.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: With all due respect I have been building designing and flying LPR's since I was 8 years old and if you want to know some of the details on why I waited until recently to go high power I would suggest you read my Bio on NorthwestRocketry but thats only about half the story. You don't know me nor do you have any Idea what my background is. Another thing is that this forum is no place for an attitude like that nor the insulting ignorance that you so quickly display. Again not the venue for your style of remarks. On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:13 PM, wrote: > "Next time if you are looking for rocket related sites please use the links > page from the Northwestrocketry.com site and save yourself a lot of > hassle." > > > You know when you say that you almost sound like you know what you are > talking about. Almost. In the hobby what all of three months and already > you know everything? Spare me and just ignore everything I post like I > shall do with you forthwith. Best of luck. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From tomjerry1 at dishmail.net Sat Nov 14 21:27:35 2009 From: tomjerry1 at dishmail.net (Roy Jenkins) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 21:27:35 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 64 References: <2798.76.115.45.22.1258258420.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: boy you got a thick skull have you thought about another forum, you are starting to suck at this one From gbhchrist at verizon.net Sat Nov 14 22:15:17 2009 From: gbhchrist at verizon.net (George Christ) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:15:17 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Nixing Nomex Need; Seeking Civility (was: Rockets Digest...etc) In-Reply-To: References: <2798.76.115.45.22.1258258420.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <2B7DA2CC9D82483ABA2CDD3EE1DB12EC@LittleGoodBox> There has been a disturbing increase in the flame content of this forum of late. While sought-after when found at the aft end of ascending rockets, flames are far less desirable when originating from various other aft ends. It has been a few years since this problem has been a significant issue here in the NW Rocketry forum. Those who remember the great wars surrounding documentation requirements at Monroe know what I am referring to. If you don't know, consider yourself fortunate. It wasn't pretty! I know better than to expect Rodney King's famous wish to be fulfilled...but at least take the invective elsewhere. Please. If nothing else, just take the list off the distribution and send what you feel compelled to say directly to the person you intend it for. Thank you! From Dunkman2000 at comcast.net Sat Nov 14 22:58:26 2009 From: Dunkman2000 at comcast.net (Mark Dunkle) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:58:26 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] quadzilla rail Message-ID: <55D29B3880DE4808918B402BF87B1108@Desktop> Does anyone know the rail guide size needed for the quadzilla pad?............Mark From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 23:02:10 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:02:10 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] quadzilla rail References: <55D29B3880DE4808918B402BF87B1108@Desktop> Message-ID: 1/4" sir ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dunkle" To: "rockets NW list" Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:58 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] quadzilla rail > Does anyone know the rail guide size needed for the quadzilla > pad?............Mark > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 23:05:37 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:05:37 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] quadzilla rail References: <55D29B3880DE4808918B402BF87B1108@Desktop> Message-ID: The stringer hole can support 1/2" and 3/4". If you have a bigger rail, bring it. The stinger hole will support it. For ease, please have a stinger on your rail. Quadzilla can handle at lot. 3/8" or 1/2" rails are fine. Bring the rail and stinger. But OROC only owns rails for 1/4" Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dunkle" To: "rockets NW list" Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:58 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] quadzilla rail > Does anyone know the rail guide size needed for the quadzilla > pad?............Mark > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From kstormo at moscow.com Sat Nov 14 23:15:31 2009 From: kstormo at moscow.com (Keith and Mary Stormo) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:15:31 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Or just rockets going where you want them to. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0KT5005YO2TSNQ10@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Hi All, I normally am just a lurker on this forum but thought it might be helpful to throw in some additional fuel on this fire! We have a small team that have been working in our "spare" time on a NGLLC craft in hopes of being competitive at the Lunar Lander Challenge flights. I do not know if many of you have been following the competition, but the competition is now over (unless some additional funding comes for a Level 3 contest). I went down to Mojave for a week at the end of October in hopes of seeing 3 teams compete since we still were not ready. The team to fly on Monday and Tuesday was not quite ready either and canceled their attempts at the last minute. Masten Space Sytems had graciously let me watch previous test flights and did again on Monday and Tuesday, THEY WERE UNBELIEVABLE!!! I have some videos of there tethered flights for 20 to 196 seconds but it is just boring to watch a video of a rocket hover in a couple feet of space totally under control with 25 kilos of payload (and wind gusts above 30 mph). It really was not boring, just very loud and exciting from about 200-300 feet. They burned holes in a 6" concrete pad and then excavated the dirt below the slab through the hole!. Then they landed with the feet always just straddling the hole! I also have some video from their competition flights and when I can find out how to upload them to the Northwestrocketry.com, I will. It was also amazing to see the nearly successful flight for Unreasonable Rockets attempt for the Level ! prize and their nearly successfully controlled tether flight of their Level 2 craft. I also will second George Christ's recent post. To get the details of their Challenge flight attempts, I will re-post an email from Joel Scotkin (with his permission) that he posted to the ARocket forum on November. For some amazing still photos of the Masten flights, go to: http://mikemassee.com/gallery/v/aviationandspace/masten_level_II_lunar_lander/ Later, Keith >Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:17:55 -0500 >From: Joel Scotkin >Organization: Masten Space Systems >To: arocket >Subject: [AR] MSS Level 2 writeup > >Wow. We had a tremendous week. I think everyone is still shaking with >exhaustion, but I wanted to get my thoughts and recollections down while >still reasonably fresh. > >I don't want to get bogged down at the moment in a discussion of the LLC >rules or judges decisions. For now I'll just say that I can't find >anything in John's email that I disagree with, and that I tremendously >respect the standard Armadillo has set for transparency, industry >support and leadership. > >So I'll focus on some technical notes from the last few days - maybe we >can help someone else avoid the issues that we encountered. > >Engine. The fixes we made just before our Level 1 challenge seem to >have stuck. 20+ minutes of total firing on Xoie's aluminum chamber, it >still looks brand new. One design decision Jon made for Xoie was to >mount the throttle and purge valves directly to the engine (they bolt on >with the same bolts we were already using to close the jacket). The >plus side is that we can swap out all the engine moving parts as a >single unit in five minutes. The runs from the valves to the engine are >also much shorter. The downside is that it becomes a lot more work to >open up the jacket and inspect the chamber or swap out injector heads. >We're still thinking about the relative tradeoffs here. > >Composite tank. Our new composite tank (which hydro'd fine at 900 psi), >turned out to leak helium at surprisingly low pressures. It also came >in quite a bit smaller than planned - 124 liters vs the expected 140 liters. > >We called our vendor, who set to work on both issues, but it was clear >that we weren't going to get another rev in time to be usable for our >window. Oddly, the leakage seemed to stop after reaching a higher psi, >so we assumed that maybe the liner was expanding enough to seal. Over >the course of several weeks of testing, the leaks returned, and at some >point during the LLC challenge the tank began to sweat IPA as well, >indicating a gap either between the two liner halves or one of the polar >gasket seals. More on the effects of this below. > >LOX tank. Our new aluminum lox tank also leaked, where we bolt on the >flanges to connect our fittings. We started with fluorosilicone o-ring >seals that we had used successfully on our test trailer, though we knew >that it was recommended against for cryo. When that didn't work, we >went through a succession of spring-energized teflon seals, both C-seals >and Creavey seals - variants on teflon wrapped around a metal spring. >These worked better, but the slow lox leaks would come back to bite us >in terms of frozen engine parts a number of times. Jon notes that the >real issue was probably weld warping, and going forward we'll be >post-machining the faces after welding to see if that helps. > >That said, the vehicle had come together dramatically faster than any >other vehicle we'd ever worked on, and had no problem flying repeatedly. > The only thing that was worrisome was that due to the construction >rush, maybe helped along by a bad flare tool for our AN fittings, we >kept seeing metal shavings in tubing, filters, on o-rings, etc. > >LLC week. By the start of this week, Xoie had already accumulated >almost as much burn time as Xombie did. On tuesday, the day before our >LLC window, we finished up our test series on Xoie with a run to >depletion with full payload weight. We ran 3 minutes and 16 seconds in >a high wind, with no issues whatsoever. Everything looked set for >Wednesday. > >Basically two hours of hard aborts - every time we moved into our >ignition phase the vehicle would vent. We threw out a lot of wrong >theories over the course of two days of debugging, inadvertently blaming >lots of vehicle systems that were later exonerated as symptoms not >causes - wifi, battery, software, pwm boards, etc. We're still tracking >down the final final cause, but we did finally figure out what was >triggering our failure cascade - we had an almost completely clogged IPA >injector in our igniter. We do have a filter, but those tiny metal >shavings had nonetheless made it through and blocked our tiny choke >orifice. We were also having problems with the cable to the spark plug. >The net result was that ignition was either failing, or taking much >longer than normal. Once we fixed that, the vehicle sprang back to >life. We need to debug the root cause (probably pwm board or computer >interference caused by the long spark) in detail post-LLC. > >Thursday we finally took off. The first flight was perfect - about 16 >cms from the target. But that IPA tank sweating issue came and bit us - >IPA had been slowly dripping down onto the lox tank, and running down a >wire to the side of the vehicle. Just after landing, a small fire >started. From a good video angle, it was actually almost out, then at >about 16 seconds after landing a tiny -2 aluminum line that ran from the >LOX tank to the LOX pressure gauge and sensor overheated and burst, >causing the fire to flare back to life in a big way. There wasn't any >structural damage, the computer boxes are sealed, and the engine module >was well below the fire, but all the vehicle wiring got cooked, along >with some plumbing, insulation, etc. > >Even when we got the word that we would be allowed to try again if we >could repair the vehicle and demonstrate that the IPA leak would not be >a problem again, we were almost ready to give up. Almost all of the MSS >personnel looked like walking dead, and it looked like we would need to >replace essentially all of wiring runs on the vehicle, a number of >pieces of tubing, the LOX seals which were pouring out the bottom of the >tank, and deal with the IPA issue. > >And then volunteers just started to materialize. And man were these >folks good. We owe incredible thanks to them. They were so good, in >fact, that Dave and I basically sent the rest of the team home to get >some sleep, and from maybe 11pm to 5am these guys were just a powerhouse >and somehow knocked out a weeks worth of work. Keith Stormo from LLC >team High Expectations had been working with us all week, and came up >with the critical plan to fix the IPA issue. Buzz Lang and Brian >Bernhard took over the rewiring the vehicle, and man does it look clean. > Greg Jones from Orbex took on the plumbing, and Bob Steinke from LLC >team SpeedUp worked on repairing the tank insulation damage. By 5:00 am >every vehicle solenoid and sensor had checked out, and the MSS team >started showing up again to prep for the day, pressure test, and get >ready for the challenge flights. I went to grab a couple of hours of >sleep, and Bryan, Greg, and Keith were still going strong! > >For the IPA tank, the judges told us we would need to fill it, and then >they would call a timing hold during which time we would pressurize, >wait 15 minutes, and demonstrate that no unsafe conditions arose. >Keith's brilliant mitigation fix had been to use a custom thermoformed >plastic catch basin (in reality a trash bin lid that happened to >perfectly match the contour of our composite ipa tank) and route any >collected IPA down a tube to the end of one of the landing gear pads, >well away from the vehicle. We pressurized, and the IPA did start to >collect, clearly faster than it had been doing, but the catch basin >worked exactly as planned, and we lost maybe a quart of fuel over the >time period. The judges and Randall (in his capacity as our external >safety observer) gave us the go ahead, and we went into the rest of the >challenge period. > >Our new LOX sensor line (we had replaced the aluminum one with >stainless) had been tested that morning, but wound up clogged - it >wasn't essential to flight in any case, but we lost some time confirming >it was just the sensor line that was the problem and not a LOX leak. >The flight itself was perfect, about 28 cm, and this time we were ready >with the fire extinguishers just in case. Fortunately the vehicle was >fine, though we did have a small leg fire right where we were directing >the IPA. > >At the start of the return flight it looked like the GOX valve to the >igniter had frozen open, which should be fine, we keep it open during >flight anyway, and Randall gave the go-ahead to launch. Ignition >failure. Ben ran over again, and apparently the IPA line had frozen >too. At this point the IPA tank is really starting to leak helium as >well, so we are refilling and rushing to try again. Ben winds up >removing the gox and ipa solenoid coils, disassembling and reassembling >the gox valve, and warming up the IPA line with his hand, and then takes >off running with shouted instructions to ignite as soon as everyone >reaches positions. Once lit the vehicle behaved exactly as planned, and >came down in our best landing position yet - 10 cm from the target. > >Our final keystone cops moment came at the very end. There had been >some confusion as to the official time remaining, and the judges had >changed the count on us a couple of times. They came back and told us >we had six minutes to get the vehicle back in position on the trailer >where we started, which seemed tight but fine. The time started, Mike >jumped in the truck (two big lox dewars in back), and immediately the >rear wheels dug six inches into the desert sand and started flailing. I >believe Ben's plaintive cry to the universe of "You've got to be ****ing >kidding me." sums up the situation. Dave got the truck into 4 wheel >drive and out of the hole, and we secured the vehicle - even with the >hiccup it was only two minutes, but we sure weren't expecting that >moment of panic. > >Huge thanks to the community, everyone who chipped in, all of our fellow >LLC teams, and from me personally to the staff of Masten Space, who have >put in just an incredible effort over the last three months to get us to >the point where watching back to back rocket flights is an everyday >occurrence. > >Awesome. > >Joel Scotkin At 11:07 AM 11/14/2009, Mfreptiles at aol.com wrote: >Sunseeker rockets are not heat seeking, they sense light. > >This active guidance thread is interesting because of the amount of people >who believe active guidance to be banned by rocketry orgs. It is not, as >long as you do not weaponize your rocket. So, don't do that. :) > >Mike F. > Snip From steve-c at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 14 23:23:18 2009 From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com (Steve Cutonilli) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:23:18 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: click... "Next time if you are looking for rocket related sites please use the links page from the Northwestrocketry.com site and save yourself a lot of hassle." "Next time if you are looking for rocket related sites please use the links page from the Northwestrocketry.com site and save yourself a lot of hassle." "Next time if you are looking for rocket related sites please use the links page from the Northwestrocketry.com site and save yourself a lot of hassle." ...click...click.................click... -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Roy Jenkins Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:28 PM To: Christopher Guenther; jhadv at pacifier.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 64 boy you got a thick skull have you thought about another forum, you are starting to suck at this one _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sat Nov 14 23:28:31 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:28:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP In-Reply-To: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <92ebc30a421a23b16da964307dbf18d0.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Hey, I have a patent on rants like that! I think Congress passed a law saying you can't get a 'basic' anything any more. At least it seems like it! You say you need a decorative rock for your flower bed? We have 452 models featuring things like solar powered electronic nature sounds, intruder detectors, moisture meters, insect repellers....and all come with wireless web access! Just go to www.rocks-are-us.com...... +McG+ > Fellow rocketers: > I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the > damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as > accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if > possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if > possible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the > coordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour > looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone > provided you don't know how to read a map. > > Paul Bogdanich > tra11654 at iinet.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 15 00:05:46 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:05:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correct, Mr. Fisher! I haven't re-read the TRA rules and the various pertinent regulations in the last few years. It's possible things have changed. But active guidance "per se" is not prohibited AFAIK. It *is* however, a delicate matter. Not over the line, but definitely, in Star Trek terms, in the neutral zone along the border. PSAS has been working on a gyroscopic guidance system for years. Several individuals have over the years built and flown sunseekers. Not many, but a few. Gassaway was probably the first and still the most well known person to do so even though his sunseeker is ancient history now. The primary legal issue with active guidance is that the rockets NOT be "designed, redesigned, or intended for use as a weapon." In this day and age of paranoia this means secrecy about such projects is a big no-no. And it has always meant that considerable care and thought be given to making the finished devices difficult to convert to usable weapons guidance. With sunseekers this puts constraints on both the sensor's sensitivity and basic design. And certain other aspects too. So long as it is designed and intended to be able to home on the sun and only the sun and used accordingly, it's legal. That was a big part of my original design concept: Lack of convertibility into anything other than a sunseeker. If you want to build an optical guidance system that can lock on a star for a night launch rocket, then you're getting really close to the line. Really close. But there's nothing inherently illegal about active guidance of hobby rockets. You just have to tread carefully. +McG+ > Sunseeker rockets are not heat seeking, they sense light. > > This active guidance thread is interesting because of the amount of people > who believe active guidance to be banned by rocketry orgs. It is not, > as > long as you do not weaponize your rocket. So, don't do that. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/14/2009 10:31:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: > > WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started the active guidance topic > nor > do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. I did however ask why it > is > not legal that is all. You are barking at the wrong man. Check where > Heat > seeking started! I also do not believe that I said anything that would > be > offensive. You comments to me would be better of actually posted to the > list and directed at the actual person that brought up active guidance > which > was not me. So James and Joe please do so. > > Joe Bevier to me > show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) > > My understanding is the same as Paul's. That "actively guided" (vs./ > passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets are illegal for most of > us > and highly restricted even to organizations that qualify. Something > about > security. . . . If you do a little searching on TRF or Rocketry planet > you > can probably find the source references about all of the federal laws > involved. > > Radio back up deployment has saved the day many times. One student > project > I read about shreaded because by the time the students pushed the button > on > the RC back up deployment the rocket was already coming in too fast. It > only takes a couple of seconds to get to that point. Maybe urban legend, > but I also have read stories in the on line discussion forums of RC > backups > setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in the prep area > accidentally. Dooooh! > > I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the Shuttle launch Monday > Morning! See ya. > > james moroney to me > show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com > dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > mailed-bymsn.com > hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the > other > highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and > reasonable > rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, safe and > appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it > appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. > While > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of > rocket > enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us > who > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney wrote: > >> It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the >> other highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane >> and >> reasonable rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, > safe >> and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. >> >> I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it >> appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. > While >> on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to >> appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory >> agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of > rocket >> enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us > who >> abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 >> > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> > To: jhadv at pacifier.com >> > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> > >> > Why would it get you arrested if you developed something >> militaristic? > If >> > that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that > should >> > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich >> wrote: >> > >> > > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the >> rear >> > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking >> missile is >> > > strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free room and >> board it >> > > might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. And now for the >> free >> > > advice, when you test the missile make sure and do it on Federal > Ground >> so >> > > you go to the Federal hate factory versus the state. Better food or > so >> they >> > > tell me. >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Rockets mailing list >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 15 00:15:02 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:15:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114063303.00c4fa88@mail.iinet.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114063303.00c4fa88@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: Forward steering vanes--base of the nose cone. With the usual margin of stability. You don't want the rocket to be too maneuverable. Half-seeker designs require a certain roll rate and larger control surfaces on the fins. These can get really screwy--they home like a moth spiraling into a flame. *If* they work right. Otherwise, duck. My very crude computer sims back then usually said duck. ;-) +McG+ > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the rear > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking missile > is strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free room and > board it might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. And now for > the free advice, when you test the missile make sure and do it on Federal > Ground so you go to the Federal hate factory versus the state. Better > food > or so they tell me. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 15 00:19:22 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:19:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114063303.00c4fa88@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: Please stop picking on Chris. He's not the devil here. I am! I'm the crazed madman trying to shoot the sun with a model rocket and plunge the entire solar system into eternal darkness! (evil laugh) Ah ha ha ha ha ha! :D +McG+ > WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started the active guidance topic > nor > do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. I did however ask why it > is > not legal that is all. You are barking at the wrong man. Check where > Heat > seeking started! I also do not believe that I said anything that would be > offensive. You comments to me would be better of actually posted to the > list and directed at the actual person that brought up active guidance > which > was not me. So James and Joe please do so. > > Joe Bevier to me > show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) > > My understanding is the same as Paul's. That "actively guided" (vs./ > passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets are illegal for most of > us > and highly restricted even to organizations that qualify. Something about > security. . . . If you do a little searching on TRF or Rocketry planet you > can probably find the source references about all of the federal laws > involved. > > Radio back up deployment has saved the day many times. One student > project > I read about shreaded because by the time the students pushed the button > on > the RC back up deployment the rocket was already coming in too fast. It > only takes a couple of seconds to get to that point. Maybe urban legend, > but I also have read stories in the on line discussion forums of RC > backups > setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in the prep area > accidentally. Dooooh! > > I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the Shuttle launch Monday > Morning! See ya. > > james moroney to me > show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com > dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > mailed-bymsn.com > hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the > other > highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and > reasonable > rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, safe and > appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it > appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. > While > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of > rocket > enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us who > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney wrote: > >> It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the >> other highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and >> reasonable rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, >> safe >> and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. >> >> I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it >> appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. >> While >> on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to >> appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory >> agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of >> rocket >> enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us >> who >> abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 >> > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> > To: jhadv at pacifier.com >> > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> > >> > Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? >> If >> > that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that >> should >> > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich >> wrote: >> > >> > > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the >> rear >> > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking >> missile is >> > > strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free room and >> board it >> > > might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. And now for the >> free >> > > advice, when you test the missile make sure and do it on Federal >> Ground >> so >> > > you go to the Federal hate factory versus the state. Better food or >> so >> they >> > > tell me. >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Rockets mailing list >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Sun Nov 15 08:34:18 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:34:18 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Nixing Nomex Need; Seeking Civility (was: Rockets Digest...etc) References: <2798.76.115.45.22.1258258420.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> <2B7DA2CC9D82483ABA2CDD3EE1DB12EC@LittleGoodBox> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300333@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Don't make me get out my teacher voice, people... I have no problem putting offenders in separate corners to think about what they've done while I call their parents, or sending them to the office to receive discipline from the principal. Don't think for a second that I won't do it--I've got a referral form right here and I'm not afraid to use it! :-P Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of George Christ Sent: Sat 11/14/2009 10:15 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Nixing Nomex Need;Seeking Civility (was: Rockets Digest...etc) There has been a disturbing increase in the flame content of this forum of late. While sought-after when found at the aft end of ascending rockets, flames are far less desirable when originating from various other aft ends. It has been a few years since this problem has been a significant issue here in the NW Rocketry forum. Those who remember the great wars surrounding documentation requirements at Monroe know what I am referring to. If you don't know, consider yourself fortunate. It wasn't pretty! I know better than to expect Rodney King's famous wish to be fulfilled...but at least take the invective elsewhere. Please. If nothing else, just take the list off the distribution and send what you feel compelled to say directly to the person you intend it for. Thank you! _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From arrsales at cox.net Sun Nov 15 09:15:49 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:15:49 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Message-ID: <20091115171600402.KVNA23178@hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com> Morning! So, in a nutshell, the school project requirement is that you achieve 1 mile on the dot, using anything less than a full K motor, be dual deploy, and carry a student designed science payload? Have you determined a weight or diameter yet? Sounds like a blast (oh what a bad pun).. This is what I get when I click on the link in the e-mail: "Sorry... ...but that beautiful web page you're looking for isn't here yet. Stay tuned! Yours, The Google Page Creator Team" Looking forward to helping! Sincerely, Randy ARR -----Original Message----- From: Always Ready Rocketry [mailto:arrsales at cox.net] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:44 AM To: 'rockets at rocketsnw.com' Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 I am such an idiot. I MEANT CHRIS HOLDEN. I always get Chris and Carey confused. Yes, of course, Chris at Holdens Hobbies. Sorry, I cannot brain today, I have the dumb. ..at least it's Friday. :) -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:17 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 I agree...with the design that the kids are proposing, I wouldn't have been all that worried with BT 1.0. Funny that improving the product to allay people's fears has actually caused some of them to be more fearful... We up here in the Northwest know how stout the stuff is--after all...we have the high priest of extreme acceleration, Mike Fisher, and his 38mm L motors up here! :-) Since we're up here in the upper left corner, I've already pinged Chris Holden about acquiring supplies. It would be more convenient to deal with him than work with Carey all the way across the country. When I finally finish playing phone tag with Chris, I'll tell him that you recommended I go through him (assuming that you agree it'd be easier to deal with the dealer less than 20 miles from our school). Maybe you could send the stickers to Chris instead? Thanks, Randy! Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Hi Peter, Thank you! It's ironic that the "tempest in a teacup" article actually "detracted" from the product when it was designed to "ease" people about it. I've moved about a thousand tubes to dealers and end users all over the country and Europe, and have exchanged about 5. There had been some squeaking by a small percentage of people who knew about it (and we all know how fast bad news travels). I want to run a clean shop, be open, be honest, be transparent and let people know, even if it only affected a few. FWIW, my BT 1.0 rocket hangs long ways in my garage in Tampa FL humidity, and is straight. Everyone already knows there are drawbacks to every airframe material: Phenolic is brittle, fiberglass is heavy, carbon fiber is incredibly expensive, paper is weak, and, lastly, vulcanized fiber is mildly hygroscopic. You work within each material's limitations. So, unless you are building a 2x upscale Mean Machine and flying it in the Everglades in August. Then, this probably isn't the product for you. :) Plus, I'm too lazy and impatient to fiberglass. I just want to use it. It's not as strong as fiberglass, but Blue Tube has gone nearly mach 3, unreinforced, w/o shredding. It started to delaminate, and a fin ripped off, but didn't let loose. Binder Design can give you the details. Funny story.. I launched my 10 foot tall 6 inch diameter 25 pound rocket made w/ Blue Tube 1.0 at the last launch under 98mm L power. It came in w/ no main chute, and hit the ground and "bounced" with no damage. It hit hard enough to break the epoxy bond between the altimeter sled and the brass tubes though! (Video on my site) Regarding a school project educational discount, sounds like fun! Get a hold of Carey at www.huffperformance.com, I'm sure he would love to help and be a part of it, as I am too but I'm not gonna step on his toes. I look forward to reading about it at lunch today. :) I do have some ARR and BT stickers I can send to him to give to you.... Sincerely, Randy -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:12 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Welcome to the list, Randall! I just saw on Monday that BT v2.0 has been released. My students had been considering using BT for their NASA Student Launch Initiative vehicle, but had previously been balking because of the "Tempest in a Teapot" regarding the heat and humidity thing--given that the SLI launch is at Marshall Spaceflight Center in Huntsville, AL. You can read about our project at the rocketsnw.com website if you'd like. Now that the new stuff is coming, they're seriously interested in using the product for their airframe. Is there any chance that you might slide us a discount on the tubes we'd need for our project? Maybe in exchange for prominent advertising space on the rocket and the right to brag about us on your website? Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Fri 11/13/2009 4:30 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Good morning everyone, At the request of a current list member, I was asked to join and introduce myself. Most people either know me or know of me in regards to my business and my signature product. This isn't meant to be an advertisement, but rather an open ended request to help answer questions in regards to Blue Tube and or construction with it, and to address the warping issue with the original product. Version 2.0 will be shipping by Thanksgiving and I have generated a lot of web content to help people understand the product's strengths, weaknesses and just be available to help answer questions. Chris Holden at Holden's Hobbies is a relatively new dealer in your neck of the woods and I wanted to make sure he was armed with all the information necessary to be successful. I have all kinds of things I would like to say about it but I am not going to abuse the forum and turn this into a Wal-Mart commercial. :) Your reputation as a group precedes yourself and I look forward to hearing valuable content as well. That's all, nuttin more, nuttin less. :) TGIF! Randy __________________ Randall J. Ejma TRA 9577 L3 arrsales at cox.net www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Simpsonclark at aol.com Sun Nov 15 09:31:59 2009 From: Simpsonclark at aol.com (Simpsonclark at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:31:59 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP Message-ID: I'll add another "yes" to the Yellow Garmin Etrex. I bought mine more than a decade ago and it is still on its first set of lithium AA's. Its been personally tested to be waterproof, drop resistant and good to 14,000'. I'm with you... use a map to get close and the GPS if you need to get right there. -Robert In a message dated 11/14/2009 7:02:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jhadv at pacifier.com writes: Fellow rocketers: I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if possible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the coordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone provided you don't know how to read a map. Paul Bogdanich tra11654 at iinet.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From rnech at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 09:33:32 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:33:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] 60 Acres Turkey Shoot launch Message-ID: <796601.38030.qm@web111401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have been checking the LYWSA Referee schedule to see if the north field of 60 Acres has any games scheduled for the Turkey Shoot launch on 22NOV09. It looks open so far but I'll know something mor definitive by tomorrow evening when they post an updated schedule. This is an unorganized, drop-in launch with no host or sponsoring organization. Ping me if you are planning on attending. Robert From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sun Nov 15 09:33:31 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:33:31 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] quadzilla rail Message-ID: I believe it takes standard 1010 rail buttons. Mike F. In a message dated 11/14/2009 10:59:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, Dunkman2000 at comcast.net writes: Does anyone know the rail guide size needed for the quadzilla pad?............Mark From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sun Nov 15 09:58:17 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:58:17 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Active Guidance Message-ID: The problem with the subject of active guidance is that so many people have perpetrated the myth, if enough people believe, it starts to become fact. Please reference the below article by Stephen Lubliner, Chairman of NAR Sport Service Committee. Originally Posted by Stephen Lubliner NFPA 1127, 2002 edition, in section 6.1 states that the use of high power rocket or high power rocket motor as a weapon or against a target is prohibited. NFPA 1122, 2002 edition, in section 5.1 states that model rockets (and motors, and reload components) are prohibited as part of a weapon. Note that the critical element in this thread is "weapon" and "against" a target. Speaking as an RSO, I would generally permit the flight of a model that contains, in any combination, an autopilot, navigation system, or seeker. Considerations to be made include: 1) The model has no potential to damage/destroy a target. Weapons are energy delivery systems (e.g. kinetic, explosive, biological). Models with minimal kinetic energy, e.g. with a deployed recovery system, are not a weapons launched "against" a target. As an example, George Gassaway's sun seeker had no potential of reaching its intended target; he only demonstrated steering towards the seeker stimulus. A troubling situation would be the launch of a seeker equipped model against a helium party baloon. In this case I would say no to the flight as the model would be presumed to have been under boost or coast at high velocity before the target interception. High kinetic energy at the target suggests weaponization. 2) The model has no potential of acquiring an alternate target. I participated in a Stinger test launch several years ago. The target was a hot plate assembly carried by a drone (unmanned) helicopter. The helicopter made the better target and was shot down by the Stinger. If a seeker equipped model is to be launched what type of target is it seeking and what other potential targets of that type might be acquired. If other targets cannot be eliminated the launch should be scrubbed. 3) If an autopilot is essential to the stability of the model, what has the flier done to assure its proper operation. This case is really no different than the scrutiny applied to electronic recovery systems. I'll also speak as the chairman of the NAR Sport Services Committee. MODELS USING AUTOPILOTS, NAVIGATION,AND/OR SEEKER SYSTEMS ARE NOT BANNED BY THE NAR SAFETY OR THE NFPA CODES. I am forwarding this note to Jack Kane (Standards and Testing) and Trip Barber (NMAR Vice President) on the NAR Board in case they have additional comment in this area. One closing thought: The NAR sanctions the launch of model rockets against "targets". The event is call Spot Landing. Of course, a flight that lands with high kinetic energy (e.g. prang) would be disqualified as unsafe. Stephen Lubliner NAR 22152 From sb at berfield.com Sun Nov 15 12:46:33 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:46:33 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber In-Reply-To: <6D0F7F2978E64C56ADD228F9F27A78E5@LaptopKrausert> References: <200911150330.nAF3ULYq030180@omr3.networksolutionsemail.com> <6D0F7F2978E64C56ADD228F9F27A78E5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <000601ca6634$b7e39b80$27aad280$@com> Not that I know of - maybe someone makes a primer with them in it, but I haven't run into one. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Krausert [mailto:lawndart.robert at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:39 PM To: Scott Berfield; Gary Lech; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber OK Scott, don't laugh at me. But do they sell "spray on" microballoons? Kind of like a rattle can thick primer/filler. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Berfield" To: "Gary Lech" ; Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > Microballoons actually weaken the material. Makes for a nice easy to sand > surface, but not strong. Milled glass adds strength - but is harder to > sand. I usually do fibers in resin for the structure and sometimes skim > over it with balloons. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Lech > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 5:49 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > > > Now I'm curious. Which works better for fillets milled fiber or > microbaloons. > > BTW, I haven't tried either and I'm in the middle of my first attempt at > fiberglassing a scratch built rocket. > > Cheers from ~ > Gary Lech > Be sure to visit http://lech.is-a-geek.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; t.j.doll at att.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 5:43 pm > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Milled Fiber > > > > Milled fiber makes the joint three times stronger, and it helps make nicer > illets. > > ike F. > > > n a message dated 11/14/2009 4:33:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > awndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > Does milled fiberglass actually add strength or just helps with > orming/filling? Straight epoxy versus epoxy with milled glass. Just > urious > f it actually adds strength. > Cheers, > obert > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From sb at berfield.com Sun Nov 15 12:47:08 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:47:08 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Or just rockets going where you want them to. In-Reply-To: <0KT5005YO2TSNQ10@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KT5005YO2TSNQ10@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000701ca6634$ccf85600$66e90200$@com> Thanks for sharing that -- pretty amazing stuff. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Keith and Mary Stormo Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:16 PM To: Mfreptiles at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Or just rockets going where you want them to. Hi All, I normally am just a lurker on this forum but thought it might be helpful to throw in some additional fuel on this fire! We have a small team that have been working in our "spare" time on a NGLLC craft in hopes of being competitive at the Lunar Lander Challenge flights. I do not know if many of you have been following the competition, but the competition is now over (unless some additional funding comes for a Level 3 contest). I went down to Mojave for a week at the end of October in hopes of seeing 3 teams compete since we still were not ready. The team to fly on Monday and Tuesday was not quite ready either and canceled their attempts at the last minute. Masten Space Sytems had graciously let me watch previous test flights and did again on Monday and Tuesday, THEY WERE UNBELIEVABLE!!! I have some videos of there tethered flights for 20 to 196 seconds but it is just boring to watch a video of a rocket hover in a couple feet of space totally under control with 25 kilos of payload (and wind gusts above 30 mph). It really was not boring, just very loud and exciting from about 200-300 feet. They burned holes in a 6" concrete pad and then excavated the dirt below the slab through the hole!. Then they landed with the feet always just straddling the hole! I also have some video from their competition flights and when I can find out how to upload them to the Northwestrocketry.com, I will. It was also amazing to see the nearly successful flight for Unreasonable Rockets attempt for the Level ! prize and their nearly successfully controlled tether flight of their Level 2 craft. I also will second George Christ's recent post. To get the details of their Challenge flight attempts, I will re-post an email from Joel Scotkin (with his permission) that he posted to the ARocket forum on November. For some amazing still photos of the Masten flights, go to: http://mikemassee.com/gallery/v/aviationandspace/masten_level_II_lunar_lande r/ Later, Keith >Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:17:55 -0500 >From: Joel Scotkin >Organization: Masten Space Systems >To: arocket >Subject: [AR] MSS Level 2 writeup > >Wow. We had a tremendous week. I think everyone is still shaking with >exhaustion, but I wanted to get my thoughts and recollections down while >still reasonably fresh. > >I don't want to get bogged down at the moment in a discussion of the LLC >rules or judges decisions. For now I'll just say that I can't find >anything in John's email that I disagree with, and that I tremendously >respect the standard Armadillo has set for transparency, industry >support and leadership. > >So I'll focus on some technical notes from the last few days - maybe we >can help someone else avoid the issues that we encountered. > >Engine. The fixes we made just before our Level 1 challenge seem to >have stuck. 20+ minutes of total firing on Xoie's aluminum chamber, it >still looks brand new. One design decision Jon made for Xoie was to >mount the throttle and purge valves directly to the engine (they bolt on >with the same bolts we were already using to close the jacket). The >plus side is that we can swap out all the engine moving parts as a >single unit in five minutes. The runs from the valves to the engine are >also much shorter. The downside is that it becomes a lot more work to >open up the jacket and inspect the chamber or swap out injector heads. >We're still thinking about the relative tradeoffs here. > >Composite tank. Our new composite tank (which hydro'd fine at 900 psi), >turned out to leak helium at surprisingly low pressures. It also came >in quite a bit smaller than planned - 124 liters vs the expected 140 liters. > >We called our vendor, who set to work on both issues, but it was clear >that we weren't going to get another rev in time to be usable for our >window. Oddly, the leakage seemed to stop after reaching a higher psi, >so we assumed that maybe the liner was expanding enough to seal. Over >the course of several weeks of testing, the leaks returned, and at some >point during the LLC challenge the tank began to sweat IPA as well, >indicating a gap either between the two liner halves or one of the polar >gasket seals. More on the effects of this below. > >LOX tank. Our new aluminum lox tank also leaked, where we bolt on the >flanges to connect our fittings. We started with fluorosilicone o-ring >seals that we had used successfully on our test trailer, though we knew >that it was recommended against for cryo. When that didn't work, we >went through a succession of spring-energized teflon seals, both C-seals >and Creavey seals - variants on teflon wrapped around a metal spring. >These worked better, but the slow lox leaks would come back to bite us >in terms of frozen engine parts a number of times. Jon notes that the >real issue was probably weld warping, and going forward we'll be >post-machining the faces after welding to see if that helps. > >That said, the vehicle had come together dramatically faster than any >other vehicle we'd ever worked on, and had no problem flying repeatedly. > The only thing that was worrisome was that due to the construction >rush, maybe helped along by a bad flare tool for our AN fittings, we >kept seeing metal shavings in tubing, filters, on o-rings, etc. > >LLC week. By the start of this week, Xoie had already accumulated >almost as much burn time as Xombie did. On tuesday, the day before our >LLC window, we finished up our test series on Xoie with a run to >depletion with full payload weight. We ran 3 minutes and 16 seconds in >a high wind, with no issues whatsoever. Everything looked set for >Wednesday. > >Basically two hours of hard aborts - every time we moved into our >ignition phase the vehicle would vent. We threw out a lot of wrong >theories over the course of two days of debugging, inadvertently blaming >lots of vehicle systems that were later exonerated as symptoms not >causes - wifi, battery, software, pwm boards, etc. We're still tracking >down the final final cause, but we did finally figure out what was >triggering our failure cascade - we had an almost completely clogged IPA >injector in our igniter. We do have a filter, but those tiny metal >shavings had nonetheless made it through and blocked our tiny choke >orifice. We were also having problems with the cable to the spark plug. >The net result was that ignition was either failing, or taking much >longer than normal. Once we fixed that, the vehicle sprang back to >life. We need to debug the root cause (probably pwm board or computer >interference caused by the long spark) in detail post-LLC. > >Thursday we finally took off. The first flight was perfect - about 16 >cms from the target. But that IPA tank sweating issue came and bit us - >IPA had been slowly dripping down onto the lox tank, and running down a >wire to the side of the vehicle. Just after landing, a small fire >started. From a good video angle, it was actually almost out, then at >about 16 seconds after landing a tiny -2 aluminum line that ran from the >LOX tank to the LOX pressure gauge and sensor overheated and burst, >causing the fire to flare back to life in a big way. There wasn't any >structural damage, the computer boxes are sealed, and the engine module >was well below the fire, but all the vehicle wiring got cooked, along >with some plumbing, insulation, etc. > >Even when we got the word that we would be allowed to try again if we >could repair the vehicle and demonstrate that the IPA leak would not be >a problem again, we were almost ready to give up. Almost all of the MSS >personnel looked like walking dead, and it looked like we would need to >replace essentially all of wiring runs on the vehicle, a number of >pieces of tubing, the LOX seals which were pouring out the bottom of the >tank, and deal with the IPA issue. > >And then volunteers just started to materialize. And man were these >folks good. We owe incredible thanks to them. They were so good, in >fact, that Dave and I basically sent the rest of the team home to get >some sleep, and from maybe 11pm to 5am these guys were just a powerhouse >and somehow knocked out a weeks worth of work. Keith Stormo from LLC >team High Expectations had been working with us all week, and came up >with the critical plan to fix the IPA issue. Buzz Lang and Brian >Bernhard took over the rewiring the vehicle, and man does it look clean. > Greg Jones from Orbex took on the plumbing, and Bob Steinke from LLC >team SpeedUp worked on repairing the tank insulation damage. By 5:00 am >every vehicle solenoid and sensor had checked out, and the MSS team >started showing up again to prep for the day, pressure test, and get >ready for the challenge flights. I went to grab a couple of hours of >sleep, and Bryan, Greg, and Keith were still going strong! > >For the IPA tank, the judges told us we would need to fill it, and then >they would call a timing hold during which time we would pressurize, >wait 15 minutes, and demonstrate that no unsafe conditions arose. >Keith's brilliant mitigation fix had been to use a custom thermoformed >plastic catch basin (in reality a trash bin lid that happened to >perfectly match the contour of our composite ipa tank) and route any >collected IPA down a tube to the end of one of the landing gear pads, >well away from the vehicle. We pressurized, and the IPA did start to >collect, clearly faster than it had been doing, but the catch basin >worked exactly as planned, and we lost maybe a quart of fuel over the >time period. The judges and Randall (in his capacity as our external >safety observer) gave us the go ahead, and we went into the rest of the >challenge period. > >Our new LOX sensor line (we had replaced the aluminum one with >stainless) had been tested that morning, but wound up clogged - it >wasn't essential to flight in any case, but we lost some time confirming >it was just the sensor line that was the problem and not a LOX leak. >The flight itself was perfect, about 28 cm, and this time we were ready >with the fire extinguishers just in case. Fortunately the vehicle was >fine, though we did have a small leg fire right where we were directing >the IPA. > >At the start of the return flight it looked like the GOX valve to the >igniter had frozen open, which should be fine, we keep it open during >flight anyway, and Randall gave the go-ahead to launch. Ignition >failure. Ben ran over again, and apparently the IPA line had frozen >too. At this point the IPA tank is really starting to leak helium as >well, so we are refilling and rushing to try again. Ben winds up >removing the gox and ipa solenoid coils, disassembling and reassembling >the gox valve, and warming up the IPA line with his hand, and then takes >off running with shouted instructions to ignite as soon as everyone >reaches positions. Once lit the vehicle behaved exactly as planned, and >came down in our best landing position yet - 10 cm from the target. > >Our final keystone cops moment came at the very end. There had been >some confusion as to the official time remaining, and the judges had >changed the count on us a couple of times. They came back and told us >we had six minutes to get the vehicle back in position on the trailer >where we started, which seemed tight but fine. The time started, Mike >jumped in the truck (two big lox dewars in back), and immediately the >rear wheels dug six inches into the desert sand and started flailing. I >believe Ben's plaintive cry to the universe of "You've got to be ****ing >kidding me." sums up the situation. Dave got the truck into 4 wheel >drive and out of the hole, and we secured the vehicle - even with the >hiccup it was only two minutes, but we sure weren't expecting that >moment of panic. > >Huge thanks to the community, everyone who chipped in, all of our fellow >LLC teams, and from me personally to the staff of Masten Space, who have >put in just an incredible effort over the last three months to get us to >the point where watching back to back rocket flights is an everyday >occurrence. > >Awesome. > >Joel Scotkin At 11:07 AM 11/14/2009, Mfreptiles at aol.com wrote: >Sunseeker rockets are not heat seeking, they sense light. > >This active guidance thread is interesting because of the amount of people >who believe active guidance to be banned by rocketry orgs. It is not, as >long as you do not weaponize your rocket. So, don't do that. :) > >Mike F. > Snip _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sb at berfield.com Sun Nov 15 12:47:57 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:47:57 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091114063303.00c4fa88@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <000801ca6634$ea233970$be69ac50$@com> If you are going to try to destroy the sun, you'll need some Red Matter. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:19 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Please stop picking on Chris. He's not the devil here. I am! I'm the crazed madman trying to shoot the sun with a model rocket and plunge the entire solar system into eternal darkness! (evil laugh) Ah ha ha ha ha ha! :D +McG+ > WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started the active guidance topic > nor > do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. I did however ask why it > is > not legal that is all. You are barking at the wrong man. Check where > Heat > seeking started! I also do not believe that I said anything that would be > offensive. You comments to me would be better of actually posted to the > list and directed at the actual person that brought up active guidance > which > was not me. So James and Joe please do so. > > Joe Bevier to me > show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) > > My understanding is the same as Paul's. That "actively guided" (vs./ > passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets are illegal for most of > us > and highly restricted even to organizations that qualify. Something about > security. . . . If you do a little searching on TRF or Rocketry planet you > can probably find the source references about all of the federal laws > involved. > > Radio back up deployment has saved the day many times. One student > project > I read about shreaded because by the time the students pushed the button > on > the RC back up deployment the rocket was already coming in too fast. It > only takes a couple of seconds to get to that point. Maybe urban legend, > but I also have read stories in the on line discussion forums of RC > backups > setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in the prep area > accidentally. Dooooh! > > I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the Shuttle launch Monday > Morning! See ya. > > james moroney to me > show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com > dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > mailed-bymsn.com > hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the > other > highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and > reasonable > rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, safe and > appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it > appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. > While > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of > rocket > enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us who > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney wrote: > >> It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong attention for all the >> other highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy pursing sane and >> reasonable rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree upon, >> safe >> and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. >> >> I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who pursue it >> appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate and offensive. >> While >> on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit your comments to >> appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any number of regulatory >> agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the collective group of >> rocket >> enthusiasts are chatting about. Please don't ruin it for those of us >> who >> abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 >> > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> > To: jhadv at pacifier.com >> > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> > >> > Why would it get you arrested if you developed something militaristic? >> If >> > that were the case then there are more then a dozen companies that >> should >> > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. Seriously! >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul Bogdanich >> wrote: >> > >> > > Two points. First the main problem is the space required for the >> rear >> > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, building a heat seeking >> missile is >> > > strictly forboden. If you need twenty years or so of free room and >> board it >> > > might be a good idea. Let me know how it works out. And now for the >> free >> > > advice, when you test the missile make sure and do it on Federal >> Ground >> so >> > > you go to the Federal hate factory versus the state. Better food or >> so >> they >> > > tell me. >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Rockets mailing list >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From rnech at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 14:16:32 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:16:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] 60 Acres Turkey Shoot launch In-Reply-To: <000e01ca663b$a695a8d0$f3c0fa70$@net> Message-ID: <449674.58532.qm@web111412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I read that any leftover games to be played at 60 Acres were going to be moved to another location. With your inside info it like we are good to go. According to this news article drop-in use of the field is allowed. http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/east_king/red/news/33047609.html County Council passes safeguards for Sixty Acres Park "Under the legislation adopted this week, the 1995 update would be canceled and the association will be responsible for the development of athletic fields on the southern portion of the park, where LWYSA is proposing to build seven to nine additional new athletic fields. The fields would be developed to complement other field user groups, such as ultimate frisbee and radio-controlled airplanes, as well as drop-in use by citizens. LWYSA will hold annual meetings with the community to discuss park operations and resolve issues between itself, other user groups, and general public." As long as the launch is held in an unorganized, non-coordinated, unhosted, unsponsored, and drop-in fashion there's nothing to fret over. I'm still inviting Dave Randall to the launch. If anyone happens to be in the area at the time the launch is taking place then feel free to just drop in. Dave will probably show up a little before 10AM with his GSE and then leave around 4:00pm this coming Sunday, 22 November 2009 rain-permitting. Don't forget your waterproof footwear because it might be just a wee bit soggy out there on the range. Robert --- On Sun, 11/15/09, David Walp wrote: > From: David Walp > Subject: RE: 60 Acres Turkey Shoot launch > To: rnech at yahoo.com > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 1:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Robert, > > ? > > My son and I are planning on > attending to celebrate my > birthday. > > ? > > BTW, my son plays soccer - the 60 > acre field are closed > to soccer (for the season?).? His last game of this > season, played this > morning, was relocated to Eastlake High School.? SO I > suspect they will > not be playing soccer on the fields but not sure how they > will feel about people > on the fields for non-soccer events. > > ? > > cheers, > > _dave_ > > ? > > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:33:32 > -0800 (PST) > > From: Robert Nech > > > To: Rockets NW > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] 60 Acres > Turkey Shoot launch > > Message-ID: > <796601.38030.qm at web111401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=us-ascii > > ? > > ?? I have been checking > the LYWSA Referee > schedule to see if the north field of 60 Acres has any > games scheduled for the > Turkey Shoot launch on 22NOV09.? It looks open so far > but I'll know > something mor definitive by tomorrow evening when they post > an updated > schedule. > > ?? This is an > unorganized, drop-in launch with > no host or sponsoring organization.? Ping me if you > are planning on > attending. > > ? > > Robert > > ? > > > > > > > From rnech at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 14:25:47 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:25:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking In-Reply-To: <000801ca6634$ea233970$be69ac50$@com> Message-ID: <891030.11090.qm@web111416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The character Soran destroyed a sun in "ST:Generations" with a high power rocket. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4-azECmwM&feature=related Robert --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Scott Berfield wrote: > From: Scott Berfield > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com, rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:47 PM > If you are going to try to destroy > the sun, you'll need some Red Matter. > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:19 AM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > Please stop picking on Chris.? He's not the devil > here.? I am!? I'm the > crazed madman trying to shoot the sun with a model rocket > and plunge the > entire solar system into eternal darkness!? (evil > laugh) Ah ha ha ha ha > ha!? :D > +McG+ > > > > WHOOOW!? Back up I am not the one that started > the active guidance topic > > nor > > do I wish to peruse it as something to develop.? > I did however ask why it > > is > > not legal that is all.? You are barking at the > wrong man.? Check where > > Heat > > seeking started!? I also do not believe that I > said anything that would be > > offensive.? You comments to me would be better of > actually posted to the > > list and directed at the actual person that brought up > active guidance > > which > > was not me.? So James and Joe please do so. > > > > Joe Bevier to me > > show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) > > > > My understanding is the same as Paul's. That "actively > guided" (vs./ > > passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets are > illegal for most of > > us > > and highly restricted even to organizations that > qualify.? Something about > > security. . . . If you do a little searching on TRF or > Rocketry planet you > > can probably find the source references about all of > the federal laws > > involved. > > > > Radio back up deployment has saved the day many > times.? One student > > project > > I read about shreaded because by the time the students > pushed the button > > on > > the RC back up deployment the rocket was already > coming in too fast.? It > > only takes a couple of seconds to get to that > point.? Maybe urban legend, > > but I also have read stories in the on line discussion > forums of RC > > backups > > setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in the > prep area > > accidentally. Dooooh! > > > > I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the Shuttle > launch Monday > > Morning!? See ya. > > > > james moroney to me > > show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > > > fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com > > dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: > [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > mailed-bymsn.com > > hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong > attention for all the > > other > > highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy > pursing sane and > > reasonable > > rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree > upon, safe and > > appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. > > > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who > pursue it > > appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate > and offensive. > > While > > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit > your comments to > > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any > number of regulatory > > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the > collective group of > > rocket > > enthusiasts are chatting > about.???Please don't ruin it for those of us > who > > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney > wrote: > > > >>? It's statements like yours, that get's the > wrong attention for all the > >> other highpower/sport rocketry participants that > enjoy pursing sane and > >> reasonable rocketry endeavors within our > predescribed and agree upon, > >> safe > >> and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and > guidelines. > >> > >> I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those > who pursue it > >> appropriately. I find your recent comment > inapproriate and offensive. > >> While > >> on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit > your comments to > >> appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any > number of regulatory > >> agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the > collective group of > >> rocket > >> enthusiasts are chatting > about.???Please don't ruin it for those of > us > >> who > >> abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > >> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 > >> > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > >> > To: jhadv at pacifier.com > >> > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > >> > > >> > Why would it get you arrested if you > developed something militaristic? > >> If > >> > that were the case then there are more then a > dozen companies that > >> should > >> > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. > Seriously! > >> > > >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul > Bogdanich > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Two points. First the main problem is > the space required for the > >> rear > >> > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, > building a heat seeking > >> missile is > >> > > strictly forboden. If you need twenty > years or so of free room and > >> board it > >> > > might be a good idea. Let me know how it > works out. And now for the > >> free > >> > > advice, when you test the missile make > sure and do it on Federal > >> Ground > >> so > >> > > you go to the Federal hate factory > versus the state. Better food or > >> so > >> they > >> > > tell me. > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > Rockets mailing list > >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockets mailing list > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 14:43:00 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:43:00 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking References: <891030.11090.qm@web111416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1C3BA6B2D6DD45839005A89254274EFF@LaptopKrausert> Are we saying Ken is Soran? But Ken is such a nice person. Hmm. Or so he has led us to believe. I don't recall Ken ever trying to get a worm-like creator to crawl into my ear. Yet "Khan!!!" and "Ken!!!" kind of are close. Interesting. Ken? You have something to tell us? Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Nech" To: "NW Rocketry" Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking The character Soran destroyed a sun in "ST:Generations" with a high power rocket. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4-azECmwM&feature=related Robert --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Scott Berfield wrote: > From: Scott Berfield > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com, rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:47 PM > If you are going to try to destroy > the sun, you'll need some Red Matter. > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:19 AM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > Please stop picking on Chris. He's not the devil > here. I am! I'm the > crazed madman trying to shoot the sun with a model rocket > and plunge the > entire solar system into eternal darkness! (evil > laugh) Ah ha ha ha ha > ha! :D > +McG+ > > > > WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started > the active guidance topic > > nor > > do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. > I did however ask why it > > is > > not legal that is all. You are barking at the > wrong man. Check where > > Heat > > seeking started! I also do not believe that I > said anything that would be > > offensive. You comments to me would be better of > actually posted to the > > list and directed at the actual person that brought up > active guidance > > which > > was not me. So James and Joe please do so. > > > > Joe Bevier to me > > show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) > > > > My understanding is the same as Paul's. That "actively > guided" (vs./ > > passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets are > illegal for most of > > us > > and highly restricted even to organizations that > qualify. Something about > > security. . . . If you do a little searching on TRF or > Rocketry planet you > > can probably find the source references about all of > the federal laws > > involved. > > > > Radio back up deployment has saved the day many > times. One student > > project > > I read about shreaded because by the time the students > pushed the button > > on > > the RC back up deployment the rocket was already > coming in too fast. It > > only takes a couple of seconds to get to that > point. Maybe urban legend, > > but I also have read stories in the on line discussion > forums of RC > > backups > > setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in the > prep area > > accidentally. Dooooh! > > > > I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the Shuttle > launch Monday > > Morning! See ya. > > > > james moroney to me > > show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > > > fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com > > dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: > [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > mailed-bymsn.com > > hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong > attention for all the > > other > > highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy > pursing sane and > > reasonable > > rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree > upon, safe and > > appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. > > > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who > pursue it > > appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate > and offensive. > > While > > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit > your comments to > > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any > number of regulatory > > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the > collective group of > > rocket > > enthusiasts are chatting > about. Please don't ruin it for those of us > who > > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney > wrote: > > > >> It's statements like yours, that get's the > wrong attention for all the > >> other highpower/sport rocketry participants that > enjoy pursing sane and > >> reasonable rocketry endeavors within our > predescribed and agree upon, > >> safe > >> and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and > guidelines. > >> > >> I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those > who pursue it > >> appropriately. I find your recent comment > inapproriate and offensive. > >> While > >> on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit > your comments to > >> appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any > number of regulatory > >> agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the > collective group of > >> rocket > >> enthusiasts are chatting > about. Please don't ruin it for those of > us > >> who > >> abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > >> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 > >> > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > >> > To: jhadv at pacifier.com > >> > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > >> > > >> > Why would it get you arrested if you > developed something militaristic? > >> If > >> > that were the case then there are more then a > dozen companies that > >> should > >> > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. > Seriously! > >> > > >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul > Bogdanich > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Two points. First the main problem is > the space required for the > >> rear > >> > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, > building a heat seeking > >> missile is > >> > > strictly forboden. If you need twenty > years or so of free room and > >> board it > >> > > might be a good idea. Let me know how it > works out. And now for the > >> free > >> > > advice, when you test the missile make > sure and do it on Federal > >> Ground > >> so > >> > > you go to the Federal hate factory > versus the state. Better food or > >> so > >> they > >> > > tell me. > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > Rockets mailing list > >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockets mailing list > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From arrsales at cox.net Sun Nov 15 15:45:02 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:45:02 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300334@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <20091115234512903.SPJC23178@hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com> I just use a miter saw to cut the tubing, and slotting I just use a fine bladed jig saw. I'll match Chris' 10% so whatever the order total is to him, I'll send you a rebate check on top of that, and some stickers. :) No, it's not easy to cut w/ a razor knife, you'll make up all new kinds of swear words trying. Sounds like an exciting project for the students! Regs, Randy -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:45 PM To: Always Ready Rocketry Cc: Chris Holden Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Randy, Yeah...it looks like our site is down right now. I'll have to yell at the kid that's supposed to be building and maintaining our site. We're planning on a 4" diameter airframe. The fincan/experiment section will be between 3-4 feet long, depending on the size we need to accomodate the gyro and motor. That length will have all sorts of internal structure, so not worried about that part. The two parachute bays will be 18-24 inches long each, with coupler stuffed in each end. The overall length with nose cone and other stuff it will end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 9 feet long. As the project progresses, we'll be required to post everything to our site, and I'll be updating the NWrocketry site as well. Could you give us a little inside info on the best way to cut tubes and slots if we don't happen to have a CNC controlled machine to do it for us? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this stuff is not going to be easy to cut with an exacto knife... BTW, I contacted Chris Holden and he is going to give us a 10% discount on our Blue Tube 2.0 order when it gets in. Speaking of which... Chris, the kids decided that we're forging ahead with Blue Tube. We need two sections of Blue Tube 2.0 4" airframe tubing and one of the 4" electronics bay kits. Let me know how you want to arrange prepayment. Drop me a line when it's in and I'll arrange to meet you at your shop to pick it up. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 9:15 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Morning! So, in a nutshell, the school project requirement is that you achieve 1 mile on the dot, using anything less than a full K motor, be dual deploy, and carry a student designed science payload? Have you determined a weight or diameter yet? Sounds like a blast (oh what a bad pun).. This is what I get when I click on the link in the e-mail: "Sorry... ...but that beautiful web page you're looking for isn't here yet. Stay tuned! Yours, The Google Page Creator Team" Looking forward to helping! Sincerely, Randy ARR -----Original Message----- From: Always Ready Rocketry [mailto:arrsales at cox.net] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:44 AM To: 'rockets at rocketsnw.com' Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 I am such an idiot. I MEANT CHRIS HOLDEN. I always get Chris and Carey confused. Yes, of course, Chris at Holdens Hobbies. Sorry, I cannot brain today, I have the dumb. ..at least it's Friday. :) -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:17 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 I agree...with the design that the kids are proposing, I wouldn't have been all that worried with BT 1.0. Funny that improving the product to allay people's fears has actually caused some of them to be more fearful... We up here in the Northwest know how stout the stuff is--after all...we have the high priest of extreme acceleration, Mike Fisher, and his 38mm L motors up here! :-) Since we're up here in the upper left corner, I've already pinged Chris Holden about acquiring supplies. It would be more convenient to deal with him than work with Carey all the way across the country. When I finally finish playing phone tag with Chris, I'll tell him that you recommended I go through him (assuming that you agree it'd be easier to deal with the dealer less than 20 miles from our school). Maybe you could send the stickers to Chris instead? Thanks, Randy! Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Hi Peter, Thank you! It's ironic that the "tempest in a teacup" article actually "detracted" from the product when it was designed to "ease" people about it. I've moved about a thousand tubes to dealers and end users all over the country and Europe, and have exchanged about 5. There had been some squeaking by a small percentage of people who knew about it (and we all know how fast bad news travels). I want to run a clean shop, be open, be honest, be transparent and let people know, even if it only affected a few. FWIW, my BT 1.0 rocket hangs long ways in my garage in Tampa FL humidity, and is straight. Everyone already knows there are drawbacks to every airframe material: Phenolic is brittle, fiberglass is heavy, carbon fiber is incredibly expensive, paper is weak, and, lastly, vulcanized fiber is mildly hygroscopic. You work within each material's limitations. So, unless you are building a 2x upscale Mean Machine and flying it in the Everglades in August. Then, this probably isn't the product for you. :) Plus, I'm too lazy and impatient to fiberglass. I just want to use it. It's not as strong as fiberglass, but Blue Tube has gone nearly mach 3, unreinforced, w/o shredding. It started to delaminate, and a fin ripped off, but didn't let loose. Binder Design can give you the details. Funny story.. I launched my 10 foot tall 6 inch diameter 25 pound rocket made w/ Blue Tube 1.0 at the last launch under 98mm L power. It came in w/ no main chute, and hit the ground and "bounced" with no damage. It hit hard enough to break the epoxy bond between the altimeter sled and the brass tubes though! (Video on my site) Regarding a school project educational discount, sounds like fun! Get a hold of Carey at www.huffperformance.com, I'm sure he would love to help and be a part of it, as I am too but I'm not gonna step on his toes. I look forward to reading about it at lunch today. :) I do have some ARR and BT stickers I can send to him to give to you.... Sincerely, Randy -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:12 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Welcome to the list, Randall! I just saw on Monday that BT v2.0 has been released. My students had been considering using BT for their NASA Student Launch Initiative vehicle, but had previously been balking because of the "Tempest in a Teapot" regarding the heat and humidity thing--given that the SLI launch is at Marshall Spaceflight Center in Huntsville, AL. You can read about our project at the rocketsnw.com website if you'd like. Now that the new stuff is coming, they're seriously interested in using the product for their airframe. Is there any chance that you might slide us a discount on the tubes we'd need for our project? Maybe in exchange for prominent advertising space on the rocket and the right to brag about us on your website? Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Fri 11/13/2009 4:30 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Good morning everyone, At the request of a current list member, I was asked to join and introduce myself. Most people either know me or know of me in regards to my business and my signature product. This isn't meant to be an advertisement, but rather an open ended request to help answer questions in regards to Blue Tube and or construction with it, and to address the warping issue with the original product. Version 2.0 will be shipping by Thanksgiving and I have generated a lot of web content to help people understand the product's strengths, weaknesses and just be available to help answer questions. Chris Holden at Holden's Hobbies is a relatively new dealer in your neck of the woods and I wanted to make sure he was armed with all the information necessary to be successful. I have all kinds of things I would like to say about it but I am not going to abuse the forum and turn this into a Wal-Mart commercial. :) Your reputation as a group precedes yourself and I look forward to hearing valuable content as well. That's all, nuttin more, nuttin less. :) TGIF! Randy __________________ Randall J. Ejma TRA 9577 L3 arrsales at cox.net www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From greg at blastzone.com Sun Nov 15 15:46:37 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:46:37 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] i hope everyone is being good... Message-ID: <111801ca664d$dfeb1180$9fc13480$@com> I've not been reading the list for the last few days and now there's 100 (!) messages. Yee haw. I've not had a chance to catch up yet, so I hope everyone is behaving. I did have to put one person on moderation mode after some posts were forwarded to me. :( Greg From rnech at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 16:07:31 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:07:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] i hope everyone is being good... In-Reply-To: <111801ca664d$dfeb1180$9fc13480$@com> Message-ID: <137698.21930.qm@web111410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> And I wasn't the lucky winner. How'd that happen? I guess it's time to say something controversial! LOL! Robert --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Greg Deputy wrote: > From: Greg Deputy > Subject: [RocketsNW] i hope everyone is being good... > To: "'Rocket Mailing List'" > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 3:46 PM > I've not been reading the list for > the last few days and now there's 100 (!) > messages.? Yee haw.? I've not had a chance to > catch up yet, so I hope > everyone is behaving.? I did have to put one person on > moderation mode after > some posts were forwarded to me.? :( > > Greg > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > From rnech at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 16:10:45 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:10:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking In-Reply-To: <1C3BA6B2D6DD45839005A89254274EFF@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <201988.13682.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> If Soran could do it why not Ken (aka Khan)? When was the last time Ken piloted a starship? I think he'd choose photon torpedoes over your everyday high power rockets. Robert --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Robert Krausert wrote: > From: Robert Krausert > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking > To: "Robert Nech" , "NW Rocketry" > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 2:43 PM > Are we saying Ken is Soran? But Ken > is such a nice person. Hmm. Or so he has > led us to believe. I don't recall Ken ever trying to get a > worm-like creator > to crawl into my ear. Yet "Khan!!!" and "Ken!!!" kind of > are close. > Interesting. > > Ken? You have something to tell us? > > Cheers, > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Nech" > To: "NW Rocketry" > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking > > > The character Soran destroyed a sun in "ST:Generations" > with a high power > rocket.? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4-azECmwM&feature=related > > Robert > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Scott Berfield > wrote: > > > From: Scott Berfield > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com, > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:47 PM > > If you are going to try to destroy > > the sun, you'll need some Red Matter. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:19 AM > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > > > Please stop picking on Chris. He's not the devil > > here. I am! I'm the > > crazed madman trying to shoot the sun with a model > rocket > > and plunge the > > entire solar system into eternal darkness! (evil > > laugh) Ah ha ha ha ha > > ha! :D > > +McG+ > > > > > > > WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started > > the active guidance topic > > > nor > > > do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. > > I did however ask why it > > > is > > > not legal that is all. You are barking at the > > wrong man. Check where > > > Heat > > > seeking started! I also do not believe that I > > said anything that would be > > > offensive. You comments to me would be better of > > actually posted to the > > > list and directed at the actual person that > brought up > > active guidance > > > which > > > was not me. So James and Joe please do so. > > > > > > Joe Bevier to me > > > show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) > > > > > > My understanding is the same as Paul's. That > "actively > > guided" (vs./ > > > passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets > are > > illegal for most of > > > us > > > and highly restricted even to organizations that > > qualify. Something about > > > security. . . . If you do a little searching on > TRF or > > Rocketry planet you > > > can probably find the source references about all > of > > the federal laws > > > involved. > > > > > > Radio back up deployment has saved the day many > > times. One student > > > project > > > I read about shreaded because by the time the > students > > pushed the button > > > on > > > the RC back up deployment the rocket was already > > coming in too fast. It > > > only takes a couple of seconds to get to that > > point. Maybe urban legend, > > > but I also have read stories in the on line > discussion > > forums of RC > > > backups > > > setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in > the > > prep area > > > accidentally. Dooooh! > > > > > > I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the > Shuttle > > launch Monday > > > Morning! See ya. > > > > > > james moroney to me > > > show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > > > > > fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com > > > dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: > > [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > > mailed-bymsn.com > > > hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) > > > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong > > attention for all the > > > other > > > highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy > > pursing sane and > > > reasonable > > > rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and > agree > > upon, safe and > > > appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and > guidelines. > > > > > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those > who > > pursue it > > > appropriately. I find your recent comment > inapproriate > > and offensive. > > > While > > > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please > limit > > your comments to > > > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any > > number of regulatory > > > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what > the > > collective group of > > > rocket > > > enthusiasts are chatting > > about. Please don't ruin it for those of us > > who > > > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney > > > wrote: > > > > > >> It's statements like yours, that get's the > > wrong attention for all the > > >> other highpower/sport rocketry participants > that > > enjoy pursing sane and > > >> reasonable rocketry endeavors within our > > predescribed and agree upon, > > >> safe > > >> and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and > > guidelines. > > >> > > >> I enjoy rocketry and my associations with > those > > who pursue it > > >> appropriately. I find your recent comment > > inapproriate and offensive. > > >> While > > >> on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please > limit > > your comments to > > >> appropriate ones, and consider the fact that > any > > number of regulatory > > >> agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what > the > > collective group of > > >> rocket > > >> enthusiasts are chatting > > about. Please don't ruin it for those of > > us > > >> who > > >> abide by laws, reguations, and use common > sense. > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 > > >> > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > >> > To: jhadv at pacifier.com > > >> > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? > > >> > > > >> > Why would it get you arrested if you > > developed something militaristic? > > >> If > > >> > that were the case then there are more > then a > > dozen companies that > > >> should > > >> > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. > > Seriously! > > >> > > > >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul > > Bogdanich > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Two points. First the main problem > is > > the space required for the > > >> rear > > >> > > actuators and the nozzle design. > Second, > > building a heat seeking > > >> missile is > > >> > > strictly forboden. If you need > twenty > > years or so of free room and > > >> board it > > >> > > might be a good idea. Let me know > how it > > works out. And now for the > > >> free > > >> > > advice, when you test the missile > make > > sure and do it on Federal > > >> Ground > > >> so > > >> > > you go to the Federal hate factory > > versus the state. Better food or > > >> so > > >> they > > >> > > tell me. > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > Rockets mailing list > > >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Rockets mailing list > > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From greg at blastzone.com Sun Nov 15 19:11:40 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:11:40 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <118001ca666a$846be330$8d43a990$@com> Depends on your definition of long range. The 100 mwatt 900mhz radios from Maxstream work line of sight to 50+ miles, and on the ground to at least 1 mile (from personal experience). They also have 1 watt versions. No FCC required. And they're COTS. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Vince Simoneau > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:13 AM > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > Also, as 2.4G is the "newest" it's also the most used, The FCC has limited > "wireless" to 2.4g or the old 27m or 75m...either way, > > you will need to deal with the FCC for "long range" wireless. > > > > V > > > From: vincesimoneau at msn.com > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:00:23 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > Chris, Have you considered the effective range of Spektroms transmitters ? > > > > I thought about the same app, however, as an avid sport heli flyer. . . the > range and delicacy of the small transevers are the limiting factor. > > > > I have them break-down from > ..heat..shock..cold..shock...air....shock......voltage.................... > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 > > > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > > > wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > > > things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely wireless. > > > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked into > > > some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver combination's > at > > > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > avenue. > > > > > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual deployment > > > system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch in > > > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. I > > > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I could > > > hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel > > > receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire it > to > > > the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from the > > > altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles and I > > > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now > when > > > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 > channel > > > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > > > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > > > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage or > > > air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating the > > > need for wires to the LCO table. > > > > > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. Make > > > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off position. > > > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be hooked > > > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for the > > > LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that you > > > wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup completely > > > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could > even > > > have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the flight > > > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The system > > > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > > > status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > > > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger the > > > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > > > heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, and > > > deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > > > > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to TRY to make it a reality. Research it > > > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops to > > > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to have > NAR > > > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it would > > > ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I will > > > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either > NAR > > > or TRA. > > > > > > Any input on this is welcome. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows- > 7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en- > US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From greg at blastzone.com Sun Nov 15 19:20:08 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:20:08 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <118c01ca666b$b38174e0$1a845ea0$@com> I've done a few of these from 54mm up to 98mm with good success, my 98mm fin can rocket just got lost this last Mansfield launch, but its been flown on up to 98mm N's, bounced off the playa after bad recoveries, etc... My process is to start with filament wound tube and dado the fin slots about 1/2 way through the tube wall. Then attach with epoxy and fillet. Next, I apply several layers of glass/Kevlar/carbon starting with just a strip covering a little more than the fillet, next layer bigger, and so on until ending up with full tip to tip fabric. Then I vacuum bag the whole fin can area for the layers to cure. Then post cure in an oven at 200 degrees or according to the epoxy manufacturer's recommendation. Nothing special here needed, I've done this in the kitchen oven, with the airframe hanging out the door. AH, I just remembered I did a page with pictures of this years ago. Here it is http://www.blastzone.com/stratosrebuild.asp The resulting structure is very strong and will live up to most abuse we throw at our rockets. Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:48 AM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? > > I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum > diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but I > would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these methods > have been. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Sun Nov 15 19:20:09 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:20:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 References: <20091115234512903.SPJC23178@hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300336@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Just to be clear...so that Chris doesn't get slammed with "but it said on the list you were giving a 10% discount," he offered to give the Ingraham SLI project a 10% educational discount to help promote the cause of turning out smart, engineering-type kids. Randy is graciously matching that discount. You want either discount, you have to negotiate them yourselves...they do not appear to be standard policy... Disclaimer finished... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 3:45 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 I just use a miter saw to cut the tubing, and slotting I just use a fine bladed jig saw. I'll match Chris' 10% so whatever the order total is to him, I'll send you a rebate check on top of that, and some stickers. :) No, it's not easy to cut w/ a razor knife, you'll make up all new kinds of swear words trying. Sounds like an exciting project for the students! Regs, Randy -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:45 PM To: Always Ready Rocketry Cc: Chris Holden Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Randy, Yeah...it looks like our site is down right now. I'll have to yell at the kid that's supposed to be building and maintaining our site. We're planning on a 4" diameter airframe. The fincan/experiment section will be between 3-4 feet long, depending on the size we need to accomodate the gyro and motor. That length will have all sorts of internal structure, so not worried about that part. The two parachute bays will be 18-24 inches long each, with coupler stuffed in each end. The overall length with nose cone and other stuff it will end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 9 feet long. As the project progresses, we'll be required to post everything to our site, and I'll be updating the NWrocketry site as well. Could you give us a little inside info on the best way to cut tubes and slots if we don't happen to have a CNC controlled machine to do it for us? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this stuff is not going to be easy to cut with an exacto knife... BTW, I contacted Chris Holden and he is going to give us a 10% discount on our Blue Tube 2.0 order when it gets in. Speaking of which... Chris, the kids decided that we're forging ahead with Blue Tube. We need two sections of Blue Tube 2.0 4" airframe tubing and one of the 4" electronics bay kits. Let me know how you want to arrange prepayment. Drop me a line when it's in and I'll arrange to meet you at your shop to pick it up. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 9:15 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Morning! So, in a nutshell, the school project requirement is that you achieve 1 mile on the dot, using anything less than a full K motor, be dual deploy, and carry a student designed science payload? Have you determined a weight or diameter yet? Sounds like a blast (oh what a bad pun).. This is what I get when I click on the link in the e-mail: "Sorry... ...but that beautiful web page you're looking for isn't here yet. Stay tuned! Yours, The Google Page Creator Team" Looking forward to helping! Sincerely, Randy ARR -----Original Message----- From: Always Ready Rocketry [mailto:arrsales at cox.net] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:44 AM To: 'rockets at rocketsnw.com' Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 I am such an idiot. I MEANT CHRIS HOLDEN. I always get Chris and Carey confused. Yes, of course, Chris at Holdens Hobbies. Sorry, I cannot brain today, I have the dumb. ..at least it's Friday. :) -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:17 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 I agree...with the design that the kids are proposing, I wouldn't have been all that worried with BT 1.0. Funny that improving the product to allay people's fears has actually caused some of them to be more fearful... We up here in the Northwest know how stout the stuff is--after all...we have the high priest of extreme acceleration, Mike Fisher, and his 38mm L motors up here! :-) Since we're up here in the upper left corner, I've already pinged Chris Holden about acquiring supplies. It would be more convenient to deal with him than work with Carey all the way across the country. When I finally finish playing phone tag with Chris, I'll tell him that you recommended I go through him (assuming that you agree it'd be easier to deal with the dealer less than 20 miles from our school). Maybe you could send the stickers to Chris instead? Thanks, Randy! Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St Seattle, WA 98133 -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:59 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Hi Peter, Thank you! It's ironic that the "tempest in a teacup" article actually "detracted" from the product when it was designed to "ease" people about it. I've moved about a thousand tubes to dealers and end users all over the country and Europe, and have exchanged about 5. There had been some squeaking by a small percentage of people who knew about it (and we all know how fast bad news travels). I want to run a clean shop, be open, be honest, be transparent and let people know, even if it only affected a few. FWIW, my BT 1.0 rocket hangs long ways in my garage in Tampa FL humidity, and is straight. Everyone already knows there are drawbacks to every airframe material: Phenolic is brittle, fiberglass is heavy, carbon fiber is incredibly expensive, paper is weak, and, lastly, vulcanized fiber is mildly hygroscopic. You work within each material's limitations. So, unless you are building a 2x upscale Mean Machine and flying it in the Everglades in August. Then, this probably isn't the product for you. :) Plus, I'm too lazy and impatient to fiberglass. I just want to use it. It's not as strong as fiberglass, but Blue Tube has gone nearly mach 3, unreinforced, w/o shredding. It started to delaminate, and a fin ripped off, but didn't let loose. Binder Design can give you the details. Funny story.. I launched my 10 foot tall 6 inch diameter 25 pound rocket made w/ Blue Tube 1.0 at the last launch under 98mm L power. It came in w/ no main chute, and hit the ground and "bounced" with no damage. It hit hard enough to break the epoxy bond between the altimeter sled and the brass tubes though! (Video on my site) Regarding a school project educational discount, sounds like fun! Get a hold of Carey at www.huffperformance.com, I'm sure he would love to help and be a part of it, as I am too but I'm not gonna step on his toes. I look forward to reading about it at lunch today. :) I do have some ARR and BT stickers I can send to him to give to you.... Sincerely, Randy -----Original Message----- From: Schurke, Peter [mailto:pmschurke at seattleschools.org] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:12 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Welcome to the list, Randall! I just saw on Monday that BT v2.0 has been released. My students had been considering using BT for their NASA Student Launch Initiative vehicle, but had previously been balking because of the "Tempest in a Teapot" regarding the heat and humidity thing--given that the SLI launch is at Marshall Spaceflight Center in Huntsville, AL. You can read about our project at the rocketsnw.com website if you'd like. Now that the new stuff is coming, they're seriously interested in using the product for their airframe. Is there any chance that you might slide us a discount on the tubes we'd need for our project? Maybe in exchange for prominent advertising space on the rocket and the right to brag about us on your website? Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Fri 11/13/2009 4:30 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Blue Tube 2.0 Good morning everyone, At the request of a current list member, I was asked to join and introduce myself. Most people either know me or know of me in regards to my business and my signature product. This isn't meant to be an advertisement, but rather an open ended request to help answer questions in regards to Blue Tube and or construction with it, and to address the warping issue with the original product. Version 2.0 will be shipping by Thanksgiving and I have generated a lot of web content to help people understand the product's strengths, weaknesses and just be available to help answer questions. Chris Holden at Holden's Hobbies is a relatively new dealer in your neck of the woods and I wanted to make sure he was armed with all the information necessary to be successful. I have all kinds of things I would like to say about it but I am not going to abuse the forum and turn this into a Wal-Mart commercial. :) Your reputation as a group precedes yourself and I look forward to hearing valuable content as well. That's all, nuttin more, nuttin less. :) TGIF! Randy __________________ Randall J. Ejma TRA 9577 L3 arrsales at cox.net www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From raystoner99 at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 19:23:20 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:23:20 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <118001ca666a$846be330$8d43a990$@com> References: , <118001ca666a$846be330$8d43a990$@com> Message-ID: <002701ca666c$2650a180$72f1e480$@net> That would be 100 mW, Greg. Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Greg Deputy Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:12 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system Depends on your definition of long range. The 100 mwatt 900mhz radios from Maxstream work line of sight to 50+ miles, and on the ground to at least 1 mile (from personal experience). They also have 1 watt versions. No FCC required. And they're COTS. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Vince Simoneau > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:13 AM > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > Also, as 2.4G is the "newest" it's also the most used, The FCC has limited > "wireless" to 2.4g or the old 27m or 75m...either way, > > you will need to deal with the FCC for "long range" wireless. > > > > V > > > From: vincesimoneau at msn.com > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:00:23 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > Chris, Have you considered the effective range of Spektroms transmitters ? > > > > I thought about the same app, however, as an avid sport heli flyer. . . the > range and delicacy of the small transevers are the limiting factor. > > > > I have them break-down from > ..heat..shock..cold..shock...air....shock......voltage.................... > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 > > > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > > > wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > > > things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely wireless. > > > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked into > > > some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver combination's > at > > > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > avenue. > > > > > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual deployment > > > system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch in > > > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose to. I > > > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I could > > > hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 channel > > > receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire it > to > > > the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from the > > > altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles and I > > > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now > when > > > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 > channel > > > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch ignition. > > > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > > > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage or > > > air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating the > > > need for wires to the LCO table. > > > > > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. Make > > > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off position. > > > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be hooked > > > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for the > > > LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that you > > > wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup completely > > > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could > even > > > have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the flight > > > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The system > > > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > > > status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > > > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger the > > > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > > > heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, and > > > deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > > > > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to TRY to make it a reality. Research it > > > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops to > > > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to have > NAR > > > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it would > > > ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I will > > > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from either > NAR > > > or TRA. > > > > > > Any input on this is welcome. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows- > 7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en- > US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From greg at blastzone.com Sun Nov 15 19:24:28 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:24:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP In-Reply-To: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> References: <49634.209.253.79.135.1258250454.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <118d01ca666c$4e4709e0$ead51da0$@com> Just a note from the list admin. While not everyone is offended by profanity, many are, and the policy of this list is that we don't use it here. Please adhere to this policy. Thanks Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of jhadv at pacifier.com > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 6:01 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP > > Fellow rocketers: > I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the > damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as > accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if > possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if > possible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the > coordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour > looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone > provided you don't know how to read a map. > > Paul Bogdanich > tra11654 at iinet.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From greg at blastzone.com Sun Nov 15 19:26:01 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:26:01 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <002701ca666c$2650a180$72f1e480$@net> References: , <118001ca666a$846be330$8d43a990$@com> <002701ca666c$2650a180$72f1e480$@net> Message-ID: <118f01ca666c$86167400$92435c00$@com> mwatt mW. Tomato Tomawto. :) > -----Original Message----- > From: W. Raymond Stoner [mailto:raystoner99 at comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:23 PM > To: 'Greg Deputy'; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > That would be 100 mW, Greg. > > Ray > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Deputy > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:12 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > Depends on your definition of long range. The 100 mwatt 900mhz radios from > Maxstream work line of sight to 50+ miles, and on the ground to at least 1 > mile (from personal experience). They also have 1 watt versions. No FCC > required. And they're COTS. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On > > Behalf Of Vince Simoneau > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:13 AM > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > Also, as 2.4G is the "newest" it's also the most used, The FCC has > limited > > "wireless" to 2.4g or the old 27m or 75m...either way, > > > > you will need to deal with the FCC for "long range" wireless. > > > > > > > > V > > > > > From: vincesimoneau at msn.com > > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:00:23 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > > > > Chris, Have you considered the effective range of Spektroms transmitters > ? > > > > > > I thought about the same app, however, as an avid sport heli flyer. . . > the > > range and delicacy of the small transevers are the limiting factor. > > > > > > I have them break-down from > > ..heat..shock..cold..shock...air....shock......voltage.................... > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 > > > > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > > > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > > > > wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > > > > things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely > wireless. > > > > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked > into > > > > some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver > combination's > > at > > > > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > > avenue. > > > > > > > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual > deployment > > > > system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch > in > > > > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose > to. I > > > > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I > could > > > > hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 > channel > > > > receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire > it > > to > > > > the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from > the > > > > altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles > and I > > > > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now > > when > > > > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 > > channel > > > > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch > ignition. > > > > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > > > > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage > or > > > > air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating > the > > > > need for wires to the LCO table. > > > > > > > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. > Make > > > > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off > position. > > > > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be > hooked > > > > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for > the > > > > LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that > you > > > > wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup > completely > > > > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could > > even > > > > have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the > flight > > > > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The > system > > > > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > > > > status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > > > > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger > the > > > > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > > > > heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, > and > > > > deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > > > > > > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to style="text-decoration: > > > > underline;">TRY to make it a reality. Research > it > > > > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops > to > > > > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to > have > > NAR > > > > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it > would > > > > ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I > will > > > > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from > either > > NAR > > > > or TRA. > > > > > > > > Any input on this is welcome. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockets mailing list > > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows- > > 7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en- > > US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From greg at blastzone.com Sun Nov 15 19:26:01 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:26:01 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <119001ca666c$86ba0700$942e1500$@com> I use a garmin etrex vista. Love it. Old and cheap. Very simple and plain, but does the job well for rockets. GPS and electronic compass, which is really nice cause you can site in a rocket when it lands in the distance, lock in that line, and then when you're out int eh field recovering and you have lost your point of reference, you can look at the gps and it'll tell you where you are in relation to the line you sighted on the rocket. If I wasn't a goofball and forgot it last month at Mansfield I wouldn't have lost my rocket. :( Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Simpsonclark at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:32 AM > To: jhadv at pacifier.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] GPS HELP > > I'll add another "yes" to the Yellow Garmin Etrex. I bought mine more > than a decade ago and it is still on its first set of lithium AA's. Its been > personally tested to be waterproof, drop resistant and good to 14,000'. > I'm with you... use a map to get close and the GPS if you need to get right > there. > -Robert > > > In a message dated 11/14/2009 7:02:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > jhadv at pacifier.com writes: > > Fellow rocketers: > I need help. Can anyone direct me to a GPS receiver that displays the > damn coordinates and is not loaded with a bunch of shit? As far as > accessories are concerned all I would want is a compass, waterproof if > possible and the ability to record the coordinates of a few points if > possible. That's it. No maps, no heart rate, no directions just the > coordinates please. Is there such a device? I just spent half an hour > looking at consumer crap on-line and they have everything for everyone > provided you don't know how to read a map. > > Paul Bogdanich > tra11654 at iinet.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From greg at blastzone.com Sun Nov 15 19:29:33 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:29:33 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Nixing Nomex Need; Seeking Civility (was: Rockets Digest...etc) In-Reply-To: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300333@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> References: <2798.76.115.45.22.1258258420.squirrel@webmail.iinet.com> <2B7DA2CC9D82483ABA2CDD3EE1DB12EC@LittleGoodBox> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300333@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <119101ca666d$043cead0$0cb6c070$@com> Just to refresh everyone's memory... Rules on this list are basic. Be nice. Be decent. If someone flames someone else (personal attacks, name calling, etc) they will find themselves in moderator mode. Which means I have to waste my time pre-reading all their posts before they make it onto the list. Yuck. Use of profanity will earn the same. Multiple offenses will result in banning from the list. Now play nice, please. Greg Deputy List admin / host / referee > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Schurke, Peter > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:34 AM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Nixing Nomex Need; Seeking Civility (was: Rockets > Digest...etc) > > Don't make me get out my teacher voice, people... > > I have no problem putting offenders in separate corners to think about what > they've done while I call their parents, or sending them to the office to > receive discipline from the principal. Don't think for a second that I won't > do it--I've got a referral form right here and I'm not afraid to use it! :-P > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St. > Seattle, WA 98133 > > ________________________________ > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of George Christ > Sent: Sat 11/14/2009 10:15 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Nixing Nomex Need;Seeking Civility (was: Rockets > Digest...etc) > > > > There has been a disturbing increase in the flame content of this forum of > late. While sought-after when found at the aft end of ascending rockets, > flames are far less desirable when originating from various other aft ends. > > It has been a few years since this problem has been a significant issue here > in the NW Rocketry forum. Those who remember the great wars surrounding > documentation requirements at Monroe know what I am referring to. If you > don't know, consider yourself fortunate. It wasn't pretty! > > I know better than to expect Rodney King's famous wish to be fulfilled...but > at least take the invective elsewhere. Please. If nothing else, just take > the list off the distribution and send what you feel compelled to say > directly to the person you intend it for. > > Thank you! > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From raystoner99 at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 19:34:08 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:34:08 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <118f01ca666c$86167400$92435c00$@com> References: , <118001ca666a$846be330$8d43a990$@com> <002701ca666c$2650a180$72f1e480$@net> <118f01ca666c$86167400$92435c00$@com> Message-ID: <002801ca666d$a8838360$f98a8a20$@net> Dang it. My old eyes missed that little "m" at the beginning of the Watt...I read it at one hundred WATTS... My bad. Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Greg Deputy Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:26 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system mwatt mW. Tomato Tomawto. :) > -----Original Message----- > From: W. Raymond Stoner [mailto:raystoner99 at comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:23 PM > To: 'Greg Deputy'; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > That would be 100 mW, Greg. > > Ray > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Deputy > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:12 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > Depends on your definition of long range. The 100 mwatt 900mhz radios from > Maxstream work line of sight to 50+ miles, and on the ground to at least 1 > mile (from personal experience). They also have 1 watt versions. No FCC > required. And they're COTS. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On > > Behalf Of Vince Simoneau > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:13 AM > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > Also, as 2.4G is the "newest" it's also the most used, The FCC has > limited > > "wireless" to 2.4g or the old 27m or 75m...either way, > > > > you will need to deal with the FCC for "long range" wireless. > > > > > > > > V > > > > > From: vincesimoneau at msn.com > > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:00:23 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > > > > Chris, Have you considered the effective range of Spektroms transmitters > ? > > > > > > I thought about the same app, however, as an avid sport heli flyer. . . > the > > range and delicacy of the small transevers are the limiting factor. > > > > > > I have them break-down from > > ..heat..shock..cold..shock...air....shock......voltage.................... > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 > > > > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > > > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > > > > wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > > > > things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely > wireless. > > > > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked > into > > > > some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver > combination's > > at > > > > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > > avenue. > > > > > > > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual > deployment > > > > system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch > in > > > > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose > to. I > > > > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I > could > > > > hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 > channel > > > > receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire > it > > to > > > > the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from > the > > > > altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles > and I > > > > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now > > when > > > > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 > > channel > > > > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch > ignition. > > > > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > > > > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage > or > > > > air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating > the > > > > need for wires to the LCO table. > > > > > > > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. > Make > > > > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off > position. > > > > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be > hooked > > > > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for > the > > > > LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that > you > > > > wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup > completely > > > > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could > > even > > > > have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the > flight > > > > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The > system > > > > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > > > > status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > > > > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger > the > > > > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > > > > heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, > and > > > > deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > > > > > > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to style="text-decoration: > > > > underline;">TRY to make it a reality. Research > it > > > > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops > to > > > > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to > have > > NAR > > > > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it > would > > > > ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I > will > > > > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from > either > > NAR > > > > or TRA. > > > > > > > > Any input on this is welcome. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockets mailing list > > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows- > > 7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en- > > US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 19:42:50 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:42:50 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? In-Reply-To: <118c01ca666b$b38174e0$1a845ea0$@com> References: <118c01ca666b$b38174e0$1a845ea0$@com> Message-ID: If I did it like that with the mother tube hanging out of the oven my wife would hang me out of the oven. On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Greg Deputy wrote: > I've done a few of these from 54mm up to 98mm with good success, my 98mm > fin > can rocket just got lost this last Mansfield launch, but its been flown on > up to 98mm N's, bounced off the playa after bad recoveries, etc... > > My process is to start with filament wound tube and dado the fin slots > about > 1/2 way through the tube wall. Then attach with epoxy and fillet. > > Next, I apply several layers of glass/Kevlar/carbon starting with just a > strip covering a little more than the fillet, next layer bigger, and so on > until ending up with full tip to tip fabric. Then I vacuum bag the whole > fin can area for the layers to cure. Then post cure in an oven at 200 > degrees or according to the epoxy manufacturer's recommendation. Nothing > special here needed, I've done this in the kitchen oven, with the airframe > hanging out the door. > > AH, I just remembered I did a page with pictures of this years ago. Here > it > is > > http://www.blastzone.com/stratosrebuild.asp > > The resulting structure is very strong and will live up to most abuse we > throw at our rockets. > > Greg > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: > rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On > > Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:48 AM > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? > > > > I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum > > diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but I > > would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these > methods > > have been. > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 19:50:11 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:50:11 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? In-Reply-To: References: <118c01ca666b$b38174e0$1a845ea0$@com> Message-ID: Oh I forgot to tell you your holding out on use. That would be a great article in the Construstion area of Northwest Rocketry. On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther < guentherchristopher at gmail.com> wrote: > If I did it like that with the mother tube hanging out of the oven my wife > would hang me out of the oven. > > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Greg Deputy wrote: > >> I've done a few of these from 54mm up to 98mm with good success, my 98mm >> fin >> can rocket just got lost this last Mansfield launch, but its been flown on >> up to 98mm N's, bounced off the playa after bad recoveries, etc... >> >> My process is to start with filament wound tube and dado the fin slots >> about >> 1/2 way through the tube wall. Then attach with epoxy and fillet. >> >> Next, I apply several layers of glass/Kevlar/carbon starting with just a >> strip covering a little more than the fillet, next layer bigger, and so on >> until ending up with full tip to tip fabric. Then I vacuum bag the whole >> fin can area for the layers to cure. Then post cure in an oven at 200 >> degrees or according to the epoxy manufacturer's recommendation. Nothing >> special here needed, I've done this in the kitchen oven, with the airframe >> hanging out the door. >> >> AH, I just remembered I did a page with pictures of this years ago. Here >> it >> is >> >> http://www.blastzone.com/stratosrebuild.asp >> >> The resulting structure is very strong and will live up to most abuse we >> throw at our rockets. >> >> Greg >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: >> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On >> > Behalf Of Christopher Guenther >> > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:48 AM >> > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? >> > >> > I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum >> > diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but >> I >> > would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these >> methods >> > have been. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> >> > From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 20:04:32 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:04:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system In-Reply-To: <002801ca666d$a8838360$f98a8a20$@net> References: , <118001ca666a$846be330$8d43a990$@com> <002701ca666c$2650a180$72f1e480$@net> <118f01ca666c$86167400$92435c00$@com> <002801ca666d$a8838360$f98a8a20$@net> Message-ID: <00f601ca6671$e86a0400$b93e0c00$@net> At least you did not read it as a capital M and figure he was planning to fry us all at the next launch. - Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of W. Raymond Stoner Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:34 PM To: 'Greg Deputy'; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system Dang it. My old eyes missed that little "m" at the beginning of the Watt...I read it at one hundred WATTS... My bad. Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Greg Deputy Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:26 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system mwatt mW. Tomato Tomawto. :) > -----Original Message----- > From: W. Raymond Stoner [mailto:raystoner99 at comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:23 PM > To: 'Greg Deputy'; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > That would be 100 mW, Greg. > > Ray > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Greg Deputy > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:12 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > Depends on your definition of long range. The 100 mwatt 900mhz radios from > Maxstream work line of sight to 50+ miles, and on the ground to at least 1 > mile (from personal experience). They also have 1 watt versions. No FCC > required. And they're COTS. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On > > Behalf Of Vince Simoneau > > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 1:13 AM > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > Also, as 2.4G is the "newest" it's also the most used, The FCC has > limited > > "wireless" to 2.4g or the old 27m or 75m...either way, > > > > you will need to deal with the FCC for "long range" wireless. > > > > > > > > V > > > > > From: vincesimoneau at msn.com > > > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:00:23 -0800 > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > > > > Chris, Have you considered the effective range of Spektroms transmitters > ? > > > > > > I thought about the same app, however, as an avid sport heli flyer. . . > the > > range and delicacy of the small transevers are the limiting factor. > > > > > > I have them break-down from > > ..heat..shock..cold..shock...air....shock......voltage.................... > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:00:07 -0800 > > > > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > > > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Wireless avionics arming and ignition system > > > > > > > > For a while now I have been intrigued by the idea of making everything > > > > wireless. This of course started with my phones, computers, and other > > > > things. Now I am thinking of a way to make my rockets completely > wireless. > > > > I am talking about a dual deployment system with telemetry all hooked > into > > > > some of the newest in Rc controls. Now that we have Spektrum radio and receiver > combination's > > at > > > > reasonable prices, I see no reason not to explore and research this > > avenue. > > > > > > > > My Idea is to take my rocket that is already set up with a dual > deployment > > > > system that has an arming key switch. I plan to leave the key switch > in > > > > place for the ability to fly without the wireless setup if I choose > to. I > > > > would drill a small hole in the lever on the arming switch so that I > could > > > > hook up a servo. I would install the servo and hook it into a 7 > channel > > > > receiver. I would then install the Spektrum telemetry system and wire > it > > to > > > > the dual deployment altimeter. This way it can pick up everything from > the > > > > altimeter. The telemetry system is made for all kinds of Rc vehicles > and I > > > > do not think it would be that hard to convert it over to rocketry. Now > > when > > > > that is all set up if you are using anything from a 2 channel to a 7 > > channel > > > > system you can use your extra channels for things like ematch > ignition. > > > > This can be done on clusters as well but I would not recommend it for > > > > staging or air starting as you may be out of range at the second stage > or > > > > air start. You set your ematchs on specific channels thus eliminating > the > > > > need for wires to the LCO table. > > > > > > > > If you have everything set up right and your rocket is ready to go. > Make > > > > sure your deployment charges safety switch is in safe or the off > position. > > > > Put it on the pad, insert ematches in motors(they should already be > hooked > > > > into the spectrum system), and walk back to the flight line. Wait for > the > > > > LCO to announce your rocket. At this point you let the LCO know that > you > > > > wish to make an announcement. You tell everyone you are setup > completely > > > > wireless and that there is no LCO wire going to your rocket. You could > > even > > > > have them all go out and check it. When every one is back at the > flight > > > > line then you can turn on the system by activating the servo. The > system > > > > will warm up and start sending telemetry to tell you your continuity > > > > status. Once everything comes back good, and you should also hear your > > > > altimeter beeping, Start the count down. When you say launch trigger > the > > > > channel that your ematch/ematches are on and watch it race towards the > > > > heavens. The telemetry should also be able to send you speed, apogee, > and > > > > deployment info. It should be a real crowd pleaser. > > > > > > > > I feel this is a sound idea and am going to style="text-decoration: > > > > underline;">TRY to make it a reality. Research > it > > > > inside and out as there is most likely some safety issue related hoops > to > > > > jump through regarding both NAR and TRA. I will definitely have to > have > > NAR > > > > and TRA test the system and ensure it is safe and reliable before it > would > > > > ever be seen in operation at an event. After all it is my baby and I > will > > > > not stop with it until I get a definitive approval or denial from > either > > NAR > > > > or TRA. > > > > > > > > Any input on this is welcome. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockets mailing list > > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows- > > 7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en- > > US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 20:10:29 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:10:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? References: <118c01ca666b$b38174e0$1a845ea0$@com> Message-ID: <81EA9D44D95A485F8F5C4FF990A17FA8@LaptopKrausert> Chris, If you need to dado an airframe let me know. I'm planning to jig my tablesaw soon for just that. Likely during the long weekend coming up. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" To: "Greg Deputy" Cc: Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:42 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? > If I did it like that with the mother tube hanging out of the oven my wife > would hang me out of the oven. > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Greg Deputy wrote: > >> I've done a few of these from 54mm up to 98mm with good success, my 98mm >> fin >> can rocket just got lost this last Mansfield launch, but its been flown >> on >> up to 98mm N's, bounced off the playa after bad recoveries, etc... >> >> My process is to start with filament wound tube and dado the fin slots >> about >> 1/2 way through the tube wall. Then attach with epoxy and fillet. >> >> Next, I apply several layers of glass/Kevlar/carbon starting with just a >> strip covering a little more than the fillet, next layer bigger, and so >> on >> until ending up with full tip to tip fabric. Then I vacuum bag the >> whole >> fin can area for the layers to cure. Then post cure in an oven at 200 >> degrees or according to the epoxy manufacturer's recommendation. Nothing >> special here needed, I've done this in the kitchen oven, with the >> airframe >> hanging out the door. >> >> AH, I just remembered I did a page with pictures of this years ago. Here >> it >> is >> >> http://www.blastzone.com/stratosrebuild.asp >> >> The resulting structure is very strong and will live up to most abuse we >> throw at our rockets. >> >> Greg >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: >> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On >> > Behalf Of Christopher Guenther >> > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:48 AM >> > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? >> > >> > I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a >> > minimum >> > diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but >> > I >> > would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these >> methods >> > have been. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From greg at blastzone.com Sun Nov 15 20:30:44 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:30:44 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? In-Reply-To: References: <118c01ca666b$b38174e0$1a845ea0$@com> Message-ID: <11af01ca6675$9080b000$b1821000$@com> Its all about free time. Currently 90% of my free time is going to working on my new house. And then 10% goes to playing with my kids. And 10% to working on rockets. And and and. From: Christopher Guenther [mailto:guentherchristopher at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:50 PM To: Greg Deputy Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? Oh I forgot to tell you your holding out on use. That would be a great article in the Construstion area of Northwest Rocketry. On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther wrote: If I did it like that with the mother tube hanging out of the oven my wife would hang me out of the oven. On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Greg Deputy wrote: I've done a few of these from 54mm up to 98mm with good success, my 98mm fin can rocket just got lost this last Mansfield launch, but its been flown on up to 98mm N's, bounced off the playa after bad recoveries, etc... My process is to start with filament wound tube and dado the fin slots about 1/2 way through the tube wall. Then attach with epoxy and fillet. Next, I apply several layers of glass/Kevlar/carbon starting with just a strip covering a little more than the fillet, next layer bigger, and so on until ending up with full tip to tip fabric. Then I vacuum bag the whole fin can area for the layers to cure. Then post cure in an oven at 200 degrees or according to the epoxy manufacturer's recommendation. Nothing special here needed, I've done this in the kitchen oven, with the airframe hanging out the door. AH, I just remembered I did a page with pictures of this years ago. Here it is http://www.blastzone.com/stratosrebuild.asp The resulting structure is very strong and will live up to most abuse we throw at our rockets. Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:48 AM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? > > I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a minimum > diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but I > would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these methods > have been. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 20:59:50 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:59:50 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? In-Reply-To: <81EA9D44D95A485F8F5C4FF990A17FA8@LaptopKrausert> References: <118c01ca666b$b38174e0$1a845ea0$@com> <81EA9D44D95A485F8F5C4FF990A17FA8@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: Robert You say the word and I will bring my 54mm minimum diameter project with bells attached. Chris Guenther On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > Chris, > If you need to dado an airframe let me know. I'm planning to jig my > tablesaw soon for just that. Likely during the long weekend coming up. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Guenther" < > guentherchristopher at gmail.com> > To: "Greg Deputy" > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:42 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? > > > > If I did it like that with the mother tube hanging out of the oven my wife >> would hang me out of the oven. >> >> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Greg Deputy wrote: >> >> I've done a few of these from 54mm up to 98mm with good success, my 98mm >>> fin >>> can rocket just got lost this last Mansfield launch, but its been flown >>> on >>> up to 98mm N's, bounced off the playa after bad recoveries, etc... >>> >>> My process is to start with filament wound tube and dado the fin slots >>> about >>> 1/2 way through the tube wall. Then attach with epoxy and fillet. >>> >>> Next, I apply several layers of glass/Kevlar/carbon starting with just a >>> strip covering a little more than the fillet, next layer bigger, and so >>> on >>> until ending up with full tip to tip fabric. Then I vacuum bag the >>> whole >>> fin can area for the layers to cure. Then post cure in an oven at 200 >>> degrees or according to the epoxy manufacturer's recommendation. Nothing >>> special here needed, I've done this in the kitchen oven, with the >>> airframe >>> hanging out the door. >>> >>> AH, I just remembered I did a page with pictures of this years ago. Here >>> it >>> is >>> >>> http://www.blastzone.com/stratosrebuild.asp >>> >>> The resulting structure is very strong and will live up to most abuse we >>> throw at our rockets. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: >>> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> On >>> > Behalf Of Christopher Guenther >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 9:48 AM >>> > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > Subject: [RocketsNW] Mounting Fins on Minimum Diameter? >>> > >>> > I am interested to see or hear what people do to mount fins on a > >>> minimum >>> > diameter fincan. I know there are probably a million ways to do it but >>> > I >>> > would like to see and hear how and what the success ratios of these >>> methods >>> > have been. >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Rockets mailing list >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 16 01:12:24 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:12:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking In-Reply-To: <201988.13682.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <201988.13682.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <155b88c01af3e00d4cb94ce6d0b2458b.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Sheesh. Everybody knows it takes a nova bomb to blow up a star! Unless it's powering the Magog world-ship--didn't work that time. As for the starship, that was way back in college. Or at least it seemed like I was piloting a starship......space-time was definitely warped and points of light were flying past...... :) +McG+ > If Soran could do it why not Ken (aka Khan)? When was the last time Ken > piloted a starship? I think he'd choose photon torpedoes over your > everyday high power rockets. > > Robert > > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Robert Krausert wrote: > >> From: Robert Krausert >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking >> To: "Robert Nech" , "NW Rocketry" >> >> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 2:43 PM >> Are we saying Ken is Soran? But Ken >> is such a nice person. Hmm. Or so he has >> led us to believe. I don't recall Ken ever trying to get a >> worm-like creator >> to crawl into my ear. Yet "Khan!!!" and "Ken!!!" kind of >> are close. >> Interesting. >> >> Ken? You have something to tell us? >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert Nech" >> To: "NW Rocketry" >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking >> >> >> The character Soran destroyed a sun in "ST:Generations" >> with a high power >> rocket.? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4-azECmwM&feature=related >> >> Robert >> >> --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Scott Berfield >> wrote: >> >> > From: Scott Berfield >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com, >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:47 PM >> > If you are going to try to destroy >> > the sun, you'll need some Red Matter. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:19 AM >> > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> > >> > Please stop picking on Chris. He's not the devil >> > here. I am! I'm the >> > crazed madman trying to shoot the sun with a model >> rocket >> > and plunge the >> > entire solar system into eternal darkness! (evil >> > laugh) Ah ha ha ha ha >> > ha! :D >> > +McG+ >> > >> > >> > > WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started >> > the active guidance topic >> > > nor >> > > do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. >> > I did however ask why it >> > > is >> > > not legal that is all. You are barking at the >> > wrong man. Check where >> > > Heat >> > > seeking started! I also do not believe that I >> > said anything that would be >> > > offensive. You comments to me would be better of >> > actually posted to the >> > > list and directed at the actual person that >> brought up >> > active guidance >> > > which >> > > was not me. So James and Joe please do so. >> > > >> > > Joe Bevier to me >> > > show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) >> > > >> > > My understanding is the same as Paul's. That >> "actively >> > guided" (vs./ >> > > passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets >> are >> > illegal for most of >> > > us >> > > and highly restricted even to organizations that >> > qualify. Something about >> > > security. . . . If you do a little searching on >> TRF or >> > Rocketry planet you >> > > can probably find the source references about all >> of >> > the federal laws >> > > involved. >> > > >> > > Radio back up deployment has saved the day many >> > times. One student >> > > project >> > > I read about shreaded because by the time the >> students >> > pushed the button >> > > on >> > > the RC back up deployment the rocket was already >> > coming in too fast. It >> > > only takes a couple of seconds to get to that >> > point. Maybe urban legend, >> > > but I also have read stories in the on line >> discussion >> > forums of RC >> > > backups >> > > setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in >> the >> > prep area >> > > accidentally. Dooooh! >> > > >> > > I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the >> Shuttle >> > launch Monday >> > > Morning! See ya. >> > > >> > > james moroney to me >> > > show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) >> > > >> > > fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com >> > > dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: >> > [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> > > mailed-bymsn.com >> > > hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) >> > > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong >> > attention for all the >> > > other >> > > highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy >> > pursing sane and >> > > reasonable >> > > rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and >> agree >> > upon, safe and >> > > appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and >> guidelines. >> > > >> > > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those >> who >> > pursue it >> > > appropriately. I find your recent comment >> inapproriate >> > and offensive. >> > > While >> > > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please >> limit >> > your comments to >> > > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any >> > number of regulatory >> > > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what >> the >> > collective group of >> > > rocket >> > > enthusiasts are chatting >> > about. Please don't ruin it for those of us >> > who >> > > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. >> > > >> > > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney >> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> It's statements like yours, that get's the >> > wrong attention for all the >> > >> other highpower/sport rocketry participants >> that >> > enjoy pursing sane and >> > >> reasonable rocketry endeavors within our >> > predescribed and agree upon, >> > >> safe >> > >> and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and >> > guidelines. >> > >> >> > >> I enjoy rocketry and my associations with >> those >> > who pursue it >> > >> appropriately. I find your recent comment >> > inapproriate and offensive. >> > >> While >> > >> on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please >> limit >> > your comments to >> > >> appropriate ones, and consider the fact that >> any >> > number of regulatory >> > >> agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what >> the >> > collective group of >> > >> rocket >> > >> enthusiasts are chatting >> > about. Please don't ruin it for those of >> > us >> > >> who >> > >> abide by laws, reguations, and use common >> sense. >> > >> >> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 >> > >> > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> > >> > To: jhadv at pacifier.com >> > >> > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > >> >> > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> > >> > >> > >> > Why would it get you arrested if you >> > developed something militaristic? >> > >> If >> > >> > that were the case then there are more >> then a >> > dozen companies that >> > >> should >> > >> > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. >> > Seriously! >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul >> > Bogdanich >> > >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > Two points. First the main problem >> is >> > the space required for the >> > >> rear >> > >> > > actuators and the nozzle design. >> Second, >> > building a heat seeking >> > >> missile is >> > >> > > strictly forboden. If you need >> twenty >> > years or so of free room and >> > >> board it >> > >> > > might be a good idea. Let me know >> how it >> > works out. And now for the >> > >> free >> > >> > > advice, when you test the missile >> make >> > sure and do it on Federal >> > >> Ground >> > >> so >> > >> > > you go to the Federal hate factory >> > versus the state. Better food or >> > >> so >> > >> they >> > >> > > tell me. >> > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > > Rockets mailing list >> > >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > Rockets mailing list >> > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Rockets mailing list >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 16 01:40:29 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:40:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking In-Reply-To: <1C3BA6B2D6DD45839005A89254274EFF@LaptopKrausert> References: <891030.11090.qm@web111416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1C3BA6B2D6DD45839005A89254274EFF@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: > Ken? You have something to tell us? Uh, um, well, I *did* think T'Pol on the series "Enterprise" was really, really hot. But, what normal single guy didn't? :D Those pointy ears. Kes on Voyager was pretty hot too. Cute alien women with pointy ears! Hubba hubba! That's the only confession you're getting out of me! +McG+ > Are we saying Ken is Soran? But Ken is such a nice person. Hmm. Or so he > has > led us to believe. I don't recall Ken ever trying to get a worm-like > creator > to crawl into my ear. Yet "Khan!!!" and "Ken!!!" kind of are close. > Interesting. > > Ken? You have something to tell us? > > Cheers, > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Nech" > To: "NW Rocketry" > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? Nope...sun seeking > > > The character Soran destroyed a sun in "ST:Generations" with a high power > rocket. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4-azECmwM&feature=related > > Robert > > --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Scott Berfield wrote: > >> From: Scott Berfield >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com, rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:47 PM >> If you are going to try to destroy >> the sun, you'll need some Red Matter. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:19 AM >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> >> Please stop picking on Chris. He's not the devil >> here. I am! I'm the >> crazed madman trying to shoot the sun with a model rocket >> and plunge the >> entire solar system into eternal darkness! (evil >> laugh) Ah ha ha ha ha >> ha! :D >> +McG+ >> >> >> > WHOOOW! Back up I am not the one that started >> the active guidance topic >> > nor >> > do I wish to peruse it as something to develop. >> I did however ask why it >> > is >> > not legal that is all. You are barking at the >> wrong man. Check where >> > Heat >> > seeking started! I also do not believe that I >> said anything that would be >> > offensive. You comments to me would be better of >> actually posted to the >> > list and directed at the actual person that brought up >> active guidance >> > which >> > was not me. So James and Joe please do so. >> > >> > Joe Bevier to me >> > show details 10:20 AM (9 minutes ago) >> > >> > My understanding is the same as Paul's. That "actively >> guided" (vs./ >> > passively guided, i.e. with static fins) rockets are >> illegal for most of >> > us >> > and highly restricted even to organizations that >> qualify. Something about >> > security. . . . If you do a little searching on TRF or >> Rocketry planet you >> > can probably find the source references about all of >> the federal laws >> > involved. >> > >> > Radio back up deployment has saved the day many >> times. One student >> > project >> > I read about shreaded because by the time the students >> pushed the button >> > on >> > the RC back up deployment the rocket was already >> coming in too fast. It >> > only takes a couple of seconds to get to that >> point. Maybe urban legend, >> > but I also have read stories in the on line discussion >> forums of RC >> > backups >> > setting off multiple peoples RC backup systems in the >> prep area >> > accidentally. Dooooh! >> > >> > I'm getting on a plane to Florida to watch the Shuttle >> launch Monday >> > Morning! See ya. >> > >> > james moroney to me >> > show details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) >> > >> > fromjames moroney toguentherchristopher at gmail.com >> > dateSat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AMsubjectRE: >> [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> > mailed-bymsn.com >> > hide details 10:06 AM (23 minutes ago) >> > It's statements like yours, that get's the wrong >> attention for all the >> > other >> > highpower/sport rocketry participants that enjoy >> pursing sane and >> > reasonable >> > rocketry endeavors within our predescribed and agree >> upon, safe and >> > appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and guidelines. >> > >> > I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those who >> pursue it >> > appropriately. I find your recent comment inapproriate >> and offensive. >> > While >> > on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit >> your comments to >> > appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any >> number of regulatory >> > agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the >> collective group of >> > rocket >> > enthusiasts are chatting >> about. Please don't ruin it for those of us >> who >> > abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM, james moroney >> wrote: >> > >> >> It's statements like yours, that get's the >> wrong attention for all the >> >> other highpower/sport rocketry participants that >> enjoy pursing sane and >> >> reasonable rocketry endeavors within our >> predescribed and agree upon, >> >> safe >> >> and appropriate Tripoli/NAR regulations and >> guidelines. >> >> >> >> I enjoy rocketry and my associations with those >> who pursue it >> >> appropriately. I find your recent comment >> inapproriate and offensive. >> >> While >> >> on this forum i.e. NorthWest Rocketry please limit >> your comments to >> >> appropriate ones, and consider the fact that any >> number of regulatory >> >> agencies may drop in on occasion to hear what the >> collective group of >> >> rocket >> >> enthusiasts are chatting >> about. Please don't ruin it for those of >> us >> >> who >> >> abide by laws, reguations, and use common sense. >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:08:44 -0800 >> >> > From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> >> > To: jhadv at pacifier.com >> >> > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Heat Seeking? >> >> > >> >> > Why would it get you arrested if you >> developed something militaristic? >> >> If >> >> > that were the case then there are more then a >> dozen companies that >> >> should >> >> > not exist Like Boeing, or Lockheed. >> Seriously! >> >> > >> >> > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Paul >> Bogdanich >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Two points. First the main problem is >> the space required for the >> >> rear >> >> > > actuators and the nozzle design. Second, >> building a heat seeking >> >> missile is >> >> > > strictly forboden. If you need twenty >> years or so of free room and >> >> board it >> >> > > might be a good idea. Let me know how it >> works out. And now for the >> >> free >> >> > > advice, when you test the missile make >> sure and do it on Federal >> >> Ground >> >> so >> >> > > you go to the Federal hate factory >> versus the state. Better food or >> >> so >> >> they >> >> > > tell me. >> >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > Rockets mailing list >> >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > Rockets mailing list >> >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From sb at berfield.com Mon Nov 16 14:43:48 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:43:48 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Off-topic, but cool Message-ID: Not rockets-related, but still pretty cool: http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/16/toshiba-space-chair-ad-takes-armchair-viewing-into-space-vide/ From glech at aol.com Mon Nov 16 14:58:00 2009 From: glech at aol.com (Gary Lech) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:58:00 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best rocketry forum Message-ID: <2182DAA197594FEE97F9CDC48600BF6D@wink> Hello NW rocketeers, I've been using two online forums for quite awhile and just stumbled onto the forum at Rocketry planet. I'm curious what you all have to say about each of them good, bad, or which is your favorite and why. If there's others perhaps you can share those as well. Here's the ones I've found: http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/ http://www.rocketryforum.com/ http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/ Thanks and, Cheers from ~ Gary Lech - WA7GL From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 15:05:55 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:05:55 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best rocketry forum In-Reply-To: <2182DAA197594FEE97F9CDC48600BF6D@wink> References: <2182DAA197594FEE97F9CDC48600BF6D@wink> Message-ID: I feel that this is the best forum style you could ask for. You have to think about where the majority of the best and top rocketeers in the country are. For that reason alone in my opinion. You have people like Vern Knowles, Mike Fisher, and so many others right here. If there is anything you are looking for or need to ask then this is where I would do it. On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Gary Lech wrote: > Hello NW rocketeers, > I've been using two online forums for quite awhile and just stumbled onto > the forum at Rocketry planet. I'm curious what you all have to say about > each of them good, bad, or which is your favorite and why. If there's others > perhaps you can share those as well. > > Here's the ones I've found: > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/ > > http://www.rocketryforum.com/ > > http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/ > > Thanks and, > Cheers from ~ > Gary Lech - WA7GL > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From rob at boxbau.com Mon Nov 16 14:48:36 2009 From: rob at boxbau.com (Rob Lamb) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:48:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Off-topic, but cool In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <342C8E21-948E-4757-B120-F74406AEB97C@boxbau.com> That's what your rocket sees over blackrock - at least the first 15 seconds of the video. thanks, rob. On Nov 16, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Scott Berfield wrote: > Not rockets-related, but still pretty cool: > http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/16/toshiba-space-chair-ad-takes- > armchair-viewing-into-space-vide/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > boxbau p: 503.816.1449 www.boxbau.com From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 16 15:22:44 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:22:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Active Guidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d774d1224fca9dd195db4a0e0c44e32.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> All good points, Mike. Some thoughts: 1,2,3) On a properly designed sunseeker the steering vanes, in the absence of direct sunlight, should/will revert to center--neutral--position or very nearly so. The rocket would then behave the same as any ordinary rocket for the duration of the loss of sight of the sun. When Gassaway's sunseeker was launched on a day with a uniform cloud cover, it went, as predicted, pretty much straight up. 1,2,3) If the recovery system fails to activate but the seeker is still functioning, the likely(really ought to be, by design) mode of descent would be a tumble induced by the seeker's attempt to unsuccessfully maintain orientation toward the sun against the more powerful positive stability of the rear fins. The use of a ***barometric*** altimeter for activating recovery is almost necessary in that the flight path and cumulative drag loss will be variable. 1) Back in the 1990's I argued precisely that point with a high school science teacher who wanted to do a student project of attempting to hit a balloon with a guided model rocket. It's not just the "missile" definition that is the problem here; designing and building any kind of rocket guidance system that is intended to home in on a non-extraordinary target(like the sun}is extremely touchy legally. If you can make a seeker than can discriminate a colored balloon against a blue sky, you're essentially doing the exact same thing as discriminating against, say, the outline of an airplane against the sky. Very, very sensitive area that virtually every reasonable person would agree ought to incur examination by certain authorities. Not prosecution unless sufficient evidence of malice exists, but inquiry for sure. This is why sunseekers are unique. Building a rocket that can home on any other target raises legitimate concern as to convertibilty to a weapon. The gov't has every right to keep track of who has such things. 2) One possible failure mode that MUST be addressed with any sunseeker is the issue of specular reflections. You really don't want to have the sun suddenly go behind a cloud from the rocket's perspective and then have the rocket lock onto a reflection off the windshield of a vehicle still in direct sunlight. The only other acceptable optical guidance method I can think of offhand would be a horizon sensor system. With this, the rocket steers for the center of the sky. It's not a "homing" guidance at all. But given the uneven nature of the horizon in virtually all launch locations, and the complicating factor of clouds, this has never been considered practical. +McG+ > The problem with the subject of active guidance is that so many people > have > perpetrated the myth, if enough people believe, it starts to become fact. > > Please reference the below article by Stephen Lubliner, Chairman of NAR > Sport Service Committee. > > Originally Posted by Stephen Lubliner > NFPA 1127, 2002 edition, in section 6.1 states that the use of high power > rocket or high power rocket motor as a weapon or against a target is > prohibited. NFPA 1122, 2002 edition, in section 5.1 states that model > rockets (and motors, and reload components) are prohibited as part of a > weapon. Note that the critical element in this thread is "weapon" and > "against" a target. > > Speaking as an RSO, I would generally permit the flight of a model that > contains, in any combination, an autopilot, navigation system, or seeker. > Considerations to be made include: > > 1) The model has no potential to damage/destroy a target. Weapons are > energy delivery systems (e.g. kinetic, explosive, biological). Models > with > minimal kinetic energy, e.g. with a deployed recovery system, are not a > weapons launched "against" a target. As an example, George Gassaway's sun > seeker had no potential of reaching its intended target; he only > demonstrated steering towards the seeker stimulus. A troubling situation > would be the launch of a seeker equipped model against a helium party > baloon. In this case I would say no to the flight as the model would be > presumed to have been under boost or coast at high velocity before the > target interception. High kinetic energy at the target suggests > weaponization. > > 2) The model has no potential of acquiring an alternate target. I > participated in a Stinger test launch several years ago. The target was a > hot plate assembly carried by a drone (unmanned) helicopter. The > helicopter made the better target and was shot down by the Stinger. If a > seeker equipped model is to be launched what type of target is it seeking > and what other potential targets of that type might be acquired. If other > targets cannot be eliminated the launch should be scrubbed. > > 3) If an autopilot is essential to the stability of the model, what > has the flier done to assure its proper operation. This case is really no > different than the scrutiny applied to electronic recovery systems. > > I'll also speak as the chairman of the NAR Sport Services Committee. > MODELS USING AUTOPILOTS, NAVIGATION,AND/OR SEEKER SYSTEMS ARE NOT BANNED > BY > THE NAR SAFETY OR THE NFPA CODES. I am forwarding this note to Jack Kane > (Standards and Testing) and Trip Barber (NMAR Vice President) on the NAR > Board in case they have additional comment in this area. > > One closing thought: The NAR sanctions the launch of model rockets > against > "targets". The event is call Spot Landing. Of course, a flight that lands > with high kinetic energy (e.g. prang) would be disqualified as unsafe. > > Stephen Lubliner > NAR 22152 > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 16:04:48 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:04:48 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ground testing DD Altimeters? Message-ID: I have just tested my new DD altimeter and got my continuity beeps. I now am looking to see how best to test and see if it functions properly. Any suggestions would be good. I have thought of putting it in a jar with a jerry rigged top to fit the vacuum cleaner attachment to. Will that work it you run the vacuum then shut it off? From dmrandall at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 16:11:11 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:11:11 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ground testing DD Altimeters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6bc920e40911161611o560115f9y6cef044c808d92b2@mail.gmail.com> First, I'm not sure if the altimeter has a self test function, but I'd start there. Assuming it doesn't, I'm not sure that a vacuum cleaner provides the right amount of vacuum (e.g. it would probably be too much). I have seen others use a "brake bleeder" to create vacuum. Cheap tool found at automotive stores. There are also some compressor attachments that create vacuum. If you're not really concerned about validating the sensor by creating a specific vacuum that equates to a specific altitude, the altimeter is basically looking for a drop in pressure, then a steady pressure (representing apogee). I would assume that's easily made out of a jar with a rubber lid (remember that "make a cloud in a jar" experiment you did in jr high?) Others will have good suggestions here too. Dave On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Christopher Guenther wrote: > I have just tested my new DD altimeter and got my continuity beeps. ?I now > am looking to see how best to test and see if it functions properly. ?Any > suggestions would be good. ?I have thought of putting it in a jar with a > jerry rigged top to fit the vacuum cleaner attachment to. ?Will that work it > you run the vacuum then shut it off? > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 16:36:38 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:36:38 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Best rocketry forum References: <2182DAA197594FEE97F9CDC48600BF6D@wink> Message-ID: Hey Gary, Rocketry Planet seems to be good. Increases activity as the season draws near. Seems like a lot of topics and good place for low power. Never checked the other two you mentioned. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Lech" To: "NWRocketry List" Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Best rocketry forum > Hello NW rocketeers, > I've been using two online forums for quite awhile and just stumbled onto > the forum at Rocketry planet. I'm curious what you all have to say about > each of them good, bad, or which is your favorite and why. If there's > others perhaps you can share those as well. > > Here's the ones I've found: > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/ > > http://www.rocketryforum.com/ > > http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/ > > Thanks and, > Cheers from ~ > Gary Lech - WA7GL > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Mon Nov 16 17:50:54 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:50:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ground testing DD Altimeters? In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911161611o560115f9y6cef044c808d92b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bc920e40911161611o560115f9y6cef044c808d92b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c801ca6728$66e7f1f0$34b7d5d0$@net> I find that you can apply enough vacuum by sucking on a tube connected to the jar to get 5 kft or so on most altimeters. Very little risk of going too high as well. Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Dave Randall Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 4:11 PM To: Christopher Guenther Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ground testing DD Altimeters? First, I'm not sure if the altimeter has a self test function, but I'd start there. Assuming it doesn't, I'm not sure that a vacuum cleaner provides the right amount of vacuum (e.g. it would probably be too much). I have seen others use a "brake bleeder" to create vacuum. Cheap tool found at automotive stores. There are also some compressor attachments that create vacuum. If you're not really concerned about validating the sensor by creating a specific vacuum that equates to a specific altitude, the altimeter is basically looking for a drop in pressure, then a steady pressure (representing apogee). I would assume that's easily made out of a jar with a rubber lid (remember that "make a cloud in a jar" experiment you did in jr high?) Others will have good suggestions here too. Dave On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Christopher Guenther wrote: > I have just tested my new DD altimeter and got my continuity beeps. ?I now > am looking to see how best to test and see if it functions properly. ?Any > suggestions would be good. ?I have thought of putting it in a jar with a > jerry rigged top to fit the vacuum cleaner attachment to. ?Will that work it > you run the vacuum then shut it off? > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From dunkman2000 at comcast.net Mon Nov 16 19:21:00 2009 From: dunkman2000 at comcast.net (dunkman2000 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:21:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ground testing DD Altimeters? Message-ID: <690816423.3607771258428060893.JavaMail.root@sz0056a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ?Put the altimeter in a mason jar and stretch a latex glove over the mouth. Apply vacuum by pulling up on the stretched glove over the center of the jar mouth. It's not accurate but it works. You may need to make a test harness with LED's, as some models need to have a load. .............................Mark From carl at mousetrap.com Mon Nov 16 20:15:14 2009 From: carl at mousetrap.com (Carl Hamilton) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:15:14 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits Message-ID: I'm considering buying a Performance Rocketry Intimidator 5 kit just for the parts; it's significantly less expensive than purchasing them individually. Does anybody know if the components in Performance Rocketry "econoline" kits are the same ones that I can purchase ala carte? Can Curtis sell these kits at such a discount because they contain less expensive, inferior components? Thanks. - Carl From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 20:35:02 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:35:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits References: Message-ID: Not sure. I've purchased only ala cart from PR. Two 6:1 nosecones and 4" to 6" transitions. The conversions took 4 months. It was only Wildman that got it moving. Curtis makes great stuff. So I'm not sure if the bottom bin is a bad thing. I know paying ala cart, I paid. That kit comes complete with enough to create something nice. Sorry not a complete answer. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Hamilton" To: "NorthWest Rocketry" Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:15 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits > I'm considering buying a Performance Rocketry Intimidator 5 kit just for > the > parts; it's significantly less expensive than purchasing them > individually. Does anybody know if the components in Performance Rocketry > "econoline" kits are the same ones that I can purchase ala carte? Can > Curtis > sell these kits at such a discount because they contain less expensive, > inferior components? > > Thanks. > > - Carl > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 00:49:42 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:49:42 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ground testing DD Altimeters? In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911161611o560115f9y6cef044c808d92b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bc920e40911161611o560115f9y6cef044c808d92b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave remember that "make a cloud in a jar" experiment you did in jr high? I had never heard of that experiment before. It sounds like a neat one and I will look it up. As far as testing to see if it can give accurate altitude readings, I am not concerned with that aspect as of yet. I am currently looking to make sure it will set off the apogee charge when the vacuum reaches a level where it could no longer provide more vacuum. Then to see if it will set off the main charge as the vacuum pressure comes back toward the equivalent of ground level. I am still not sure how to release the vacuum at a slow rate in order not to have both charges trigger at the same time. If they trigger at the same time it could be malfunctioning and I want to be able to know if that is the case. Mark's latex glove setup is interesting as you can create vacuum at a slow rate and then release it again at a slow rate. My only issue there is can that create enough vacuum to simulate reaching an altitude better then 500' agl? I know my altimeter has to reach 350' agl before it will go into apogee seeking mode unless the Mach delay is set in which case it will wait out the delay time before seeking apogee. On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Dave Randall wrote: > First, I'm not sure if the altimeter has a self test function, but I'd > start there. > > Assuming it doesn't, I'm not sure that a vacuum cleaner provides the > right amount of vacuum (e.g. it would probably be too much). I have > seen others use a "brake bleeder" to create vacuum. Cheap tool found > at automotive stores. There are also some compressor attachments that > create vacuum. > > If you're not really concerned about validating the sensor by creating > a specific vacuum that equates to a specific altitude, the altimeter > is basically looking for a drop in pressure, then a steady pressure > (representing apogee). I would assume that's easily made out of a jar > with a rubber lid (remember that "make a cloud in a jar" experiment > you did in jr high?) > > Others will have good suggestions here too. > > Dave > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Christopher Guenther > wrote: > > I have just tested my new DD altimeter and got my continuity beeps. I > now > > am looking to see how best to test and see if it functions properly. Any > > suggestions would be good. I have thought of putting it in a jar with a > > jerry rigged top to fit the vacuum cleaner attachment to. Will that work > it > > you run the vacuum then shut it off? > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > -- > - Dave > From arrsales at cox.net Tue Nov 17 05:06:59 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:06:59 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] pre-slotting Blue Tube 2.0? In-Reply-To: <1119203733.4337261258429119312.JavaMail.root@sz0107a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20091117130711169.FSGX4007@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com> Morning! Bill at Balsa Machining, a Blue Tube dealer, has a 50W Synrad CNC laser, and does laser slotting. Here are some examples. They are amazingly perferct. http://www.alwaysreadyrocketry.com/Products/laserslotting.jpg BMS website: http://www.balsamachining.com/ Must be nice to have THAT toy! Have a great day, Randy _____ From: Thomas W. Rackers [mailto:rackers2008 at comcast.net] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:39 PM To: arrsales at cox.net Subject: pre-slotting Blue Tube 2.0? Hi, Are you set up where you can pre-cut TTW slots in Blue Tube 2.0, especially the 6" diameter version? Thomas Rackers NAR 85591 L2 Columbia, MD From arrsales at cox.net Tue Nov 17 05:08:45 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:08:45 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091117130856591.SYLY26908@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> I'm a relatively new PR dealer and AFAIK the econoline kits are the same parts, it's just that it's barebones. I have a few kits in stock and can't tell any difference. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Carl Hamilton Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:15 PM To: NorthWest Rocketry Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits I'm considering buying a Performance Rocketry Intimidator 5 kit just for the parts; it's significantly less expensive than purchasing them individually. Does anybody know if the components in Performance Rocketry "econoline" kits are the same ones that I can purchase ala carte? Can Curtis sell these kits at such a discount because they contain less expensive, inferior components? Thanks. - Carl _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From tim_ryerse at msn.com Tue Nov 17 05:25:37 2009 From: tim_ryerse at msn.com (MARY ANNE RYESE, TIM RYERSE) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:25:37 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] (no subject) Message-ID: Bill at Balsa Machining, a Blue Tube dealer, has a 50W Synrad CNC laser, and does laser slotting. Here are some examples. They are amazingly perferct. Can he do other body tubes? Like the GL 'dyna-wind' tubes. Tim Ryerse:-) From rocfish74 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 06:24:29 2009 From: rocfish74 at hotmail.com (Mark Lyons) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:24:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe they're the same parts. The "econoline" is there's no recovery system. Mark > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:15:14 -0800 > From: carl at mousetrap.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits > > I'm considering buying a Performance Rocketry Intimidator 5 kit just for the > parts; it's significantly less expensive than purchasing them > individually. Does anybody know if the components in Performance Rocketry > "econoline" kits are the same ones that I can purchase ala carte? Can Curtis > sell these kits at such a discount because they contain less expensive, > inferior components? > > Thanks. > > - Carl > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From dmrandall at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 06:49:55 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:49:55 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ground testing DD Altimeters? In-Reply-To: References: <6bc920e40911161611o560115f9y6cef044c808d92b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6bc920e40911170649o34b72a1bwefd82edb4bde7339@mail.gmail.com> Chris, Taking a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pressure - the table indicates the pressure is reduced by 1/2 at 18,000'. So, if I understand this correctly, you'd have to double the amount of space consumed by the air in your jar to tell the altimeter you got to 18,000'. Might be tough with a rubber glove. But, the cool thing is your altimeter will tell you after it beeps how high it thinks it went! My guess is you'll be able to use the rubber glove technique to get your altimeter to think it went over a few thousand feet pretty easily. Slowly letting the glove back down will simulate descent, and when the altimeter senses you're back down to your main altitude, it'll fire the main charge. Let us know how it goes. BTW, the cloud in a jar experiment: http://schoolscience.rice.edu/duker/weamakecld.html Dave On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:49 AM, Christopher Guenther wrote: > Dave > > remember that "make a cloud in a jar" experiment > you did in jr high? > > I had never heard of that experiment before. ?It sounds like a neat one and > I will look it up. > > As far as testing to see if it can give accurate altitude readings, I am not > concerned with that aspect as of yet. ?I am currently looking to make sure > it will set off the apogee charge when the vacuum reaches a level where it > could no longer provide more vacuum. ?Then to see if it will set off the > main charge as the vacuum pressure comes back toward the equivalent of > ground level. ?I am still not sure how to release the vacuum at a slow rate > in order not to have both charges trigger at the same time. ?If they trigger > at the same time it could be malfunctioning and I want to be able to know if > that is the case. > > Mark's latex glove setup is interesting as you can create vacuum at a slow > rate and then release it again at a slow rate. ?My only issue there is can > that create enough vacuum to simulate reaching an altitude better then 500' > agl? ?I know my altimeter has to reach 350' agl before it will go into > apogee seeking mode unless the Mach delay is set in which case it will wait > out the delay time before seeking apogee. > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Dave Randall wrote: > >> First, I'm not sure if the altimeter has a self test function, but I'd >> start there. >> >> Assuming it doesn't, I'm not sure that a vacuum cleaner provides the >> right amount of vacuum (e.g. it would probably be too much). ?I have >> seen others use a "brake bleeder" to create vacuum. ?Cheap tool found >> at automotive stores. ?There are also some compressor attachments that >> create vacuum. >> >> If you're not really concerned about validating the sensor by creating >> a specific vacuum that equates to a specific altitude, the altimeter >> is basically looking for a drop in pressure, then a steady pressure >> (representing apogee). ?I would assume that's easily made out of a jar >> with a rubber lid (remember that "make a cloud in a jar" experiment >> you did in jr high?) >> >> Others will have good suggestions here too. >> >> Dave >> >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Christopher Guenther >> wrote: >> > I have just tested my new DD altimeter and got my continuity beeps. ?I >> now >> > am looking to see how best to test and see if it functions properly. ?Any >> > suggestions would be good. ?I have thought of putting it in a jar with a >> > jerry rigged top to fit the vacuum cleaner attachment to. ?Will that work >> it >> > you run the vacuum then shut it off? >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> - Dave >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From arrsales at cox.net Tue Nov 17 06:54:04 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:54:04 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B9DAC11FBDF455884239F20D65160CB@apcp.local> I don't see why not, but that's up to him. I've heard lasers have issue with fiberglass. (?) Anyone know? -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of MARY ANNE RYESE, TIM RYERSE Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:26 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] (no subject) Bill at Balsa Machining, a Blue Tube dealer, has a 50W Synrad CNC laser, and does laser slotting. Here are some examples. They are amazingly perferct. Can he do other body tubes? Like the GL 'dyna-wind' tubes. Tim Ryerse:-) _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Simpsonclark at aol.com Tue Nov 17 08:31:22 2009 From: Simpsonclark at aol.com (Simpsonclark at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:31:22 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Ground testing DD Altimeters? Message-ID: Missleworks recommends testing by simply pressing a plastic hose against the hole on the baro chip and sucking on it. That worked for me on apogee deploy, and main did deploy, but to accurately test the dual aspect, at least a vacuum gage and a quality valve for bleeding off air is needed. If you can feed to your computer, just a way to slowly bleed vacuum off is needed. Or... you can drive over Stevens pass. I calibrated my home built that way. -Robert In a message dated 11/17/2009 1:50:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, guentherchristopher at gmail.com writes: Dave remember that "make a cloud in a jar" experiment you did in jr high? I had never heard of that experiment before. It sounds like a neat one and I will look it up. As far as testing to see if it can give accurate altitude readings, I am not concerned with that aspect as of yet. I am currently looking to make sure it will set off the apogee charge when the vacuum reaches a level where it could no longer provide more vacuum. Then to see if it will set off the main charge as the vacuum pressure comes back toward the equivalent of ground level. I am still not sure how to release the vacuum at a slow rate in order not to have both charges trigger at the same time. If they trigger at the same time it could be malfunctioning and I want to be able to know if that is the case. Mark's latex glove setup is interesting as you can create vacuum at a slow rate and then release it again at a slow rate. My only issue there is can that create enough vacuum to simulate reaching an altitude better then 500' agl? I know my altimeter has to reach 350' agl before it will go into apogee seeking mode unless the Mach delay is set in which case it will wait out the delay time before seeking apogee. On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Dave Randall wrote: > First, I'm not sure if the altimeter has a self test function, but I'd > start there. > > Assuming it doesn't, I'm not sure that a vacuum cleaner provides the > right amount of vacuum (e.g. it would probably be too much). I have > seen others use a "brake bleeder" to create vacuum. Cheap tool found > at automotive stores. There are also some compressor attachments that > create vacuum. > > If you're not really concerned about validating the sensor by creating > a specific vacuum that equates to a specific altitude, the altimeter > is basically looking for a drop in pressure, then a steady pressure > (representing apogee). I would assume that's easily made out of a jar > with a rubber lid (remember that "make a cloud in a jar" experiment > you did in jr high?) > > Others will have good suggestions here too. > > Dave > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Christopher Guenther > wrote: > > I have just tested my new DD altimeter and got my continuity beeps. I > now > > am looking to see how best to test and see if it functions properly. Any > > suggestions would be good. I have thought of putting it in a jar with a > > jerry rigged top to fit the vacuum cleaner attachment to. Will that work > it > > you run the vacuum then shut it off? > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > -- > - Dave > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From seth.wallace at rocketmail.com Tue Nov 17 09:16:52 2009 From: seth.wallace at rocketmail.com (Seth Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:16:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] ARTS 2 for sale Message-ID: <603248.86447.qm@web65309.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> I have an unused ARTS 2 for sale $150. Please contact me off list if you are interested. You can pick it up in Olympia or I'll mail it to you. ? Thanks SW From fred.azinger at intel.com Tue Nov 17 09:17:15 2009 From: fred.azinger at intel.com (Azinger, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:17:15 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is one of most sure-fire ways to get PR parts. The "Econoline" is a name that implies "No Fincan" and nothing about the quality of the fiberglass. Curtis used to make a lot of fincan and wanted out of that biz. He converted to "economy" fins cut from G-10 adding CF for the Mongeese. The bodytubes and NC's are his standard product. IMHO, if you buy a kit you'll end up with a few goofy parts like his CR and the MMT tube. The upper airframe is also a compromise in length over what I would normally want in that they are usually 24" in length which his half-tube size. I've got a stack of PR MMT's and short BT's that I'm not sure I'll every use...... Check the Rockets Magazine site -- they have parts for sale as well as kits. Also, call Wildman, as he usually has parts too. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Robert Krausert Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:35 PM To: Carl Hamilton; NorthWest Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits Not sure. I've purchased only ala cart from PR. Two 6:1 nosecones and 4" to 6" transitions. The conversions took 4 months. It was only Wildman that got it moving. Curtis makes great stuff. So I'm not sure if the bottom bin is a bad thing. I know paying ala cart, I paid. That kit comes complete with enough to create something nice. Sorry not a complete answer. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Hamilton" To: "NorthWest Rocketry" Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:15 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits > I'm considering buying a Performance Rocketry Intimidator 5 kit just for > the > parts; it's significantly less expensive than purchasing them > individually. Does anybody know if the components in Performance Rocketry > "econoline" kits are the same ones that I can purchase ala carte? Can > Curtis > sell these kits at such a discount because they contain less expensive, > inferior components? > > Thanks. > > - Carl > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From donhouston at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 17 09:46:43 2009 From: donhouston at bellsouth.net (Don Houston) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:46:43 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage Message-ID: Hello All, It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit of trouble to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but necessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill out forms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state or local requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from the explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate storage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds of explosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in this situation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to document? Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, I answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering question 12 now? How about question 20, Does applicant intend to purchase explosive materials in interstate or foreign commerce? If I want to order e-matches from a dealer outside Florida, then I would answer "Yes". Is that how you see it? Thanks for your input. Don From donhouston at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 17 09:48:03 2009 From: donhouston at bellsouth.net (Don Houston) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:48:03 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage Message-ID: Hello All, It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit of trouble to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but necessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill out forms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state or local requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from the explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate storage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds of explosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in this situation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to document? Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, I answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering question 12 now? Thanks for your input. Don From sb at berfield.com Tue Nov 17 09:56:02 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:56:02 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage Message-ID: I don't have to renew for some time so haven't really thought about htis. I have a contingent storage setup and have nothign in storage anyway since I managed to go through all my reloads this year. If it weren't for electric matches, I don't know that I would even bother to renew. Have to think about that. -----Original Message----- From: Don Houston [mailto:donhouston at bellsouth.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 09:48 AM To: 'NW Rocketry' Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage Hello All,It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit of troubleto get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, butnecessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill outforms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state orlocal requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from theexplosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternatestorage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds ofexplosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in thissituation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to document?Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, Ianswered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium PerchlorateComposite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering question 12now?Thanks for your input.Don_______________________________________________Rockets mailing listRockets at rocketsnw.comhttp://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From bigredbee at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 09:58:37 2009 From: bigredbee at gmail.com (Greg Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:58:37 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I didn't renew my LEUP (contingent storage as well). There was no way I was going to subject myself to ATF scrutiny just for a few ematches and a little BP. So far, it's not been an issue..... -- Greg On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Scott Berfield wrote: > I don't have to renew for some time so haven't really thought about htis. I > have a contingent storage setup and have nothign in storage anyway since I > managed to go through all my reloads this year. > > If it weren't for electric matches, I don't know that I would even bother > to renew. Have to think about that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Houston [mailto:donhouston at bellsouth.net] > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 09:48 AM > To: 'NW Rocketry' > Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > > Hello All,It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit > of troubleto get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, > butnecessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill > outforms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state > orlocal requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from > theexplosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to > alternatestorage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds > ofexplosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in > thissituation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to > document?Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive > materials, Ianswered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium > PerchlorateComposite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering > question 12now?Thanks for your > input.Don_______________________________________________Rockets mailing > listRockets at rocketsnw.comhttp://mx1.blast > zone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From carl20320 at msn.com Tue Nov 17 10:17:32 2009 From: carl20320 at msn.com (Carl Degner) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:17:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just received my renewal LEUP. I sent my renewal in back in June. I had got my magazine approved late last year before the lawsuit was settled. I had also finally after a year of waiting received my Washington L&I approval. With all the hassle of getting those taken care of, I didn't want to have to go through any of this again and find it easier to jsut keep things active. There is also the possibility I may be storing other items in my magazine in the not too distant future. For me, it was something worth keeping active. The extra scrutiny is not sometihing I am worried about. YMMV Carl > From: donhouston at bellsouth.net > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:48:03 -0500 > Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > > Hello All, > > It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit of trouble > to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but > necessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill out > forms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state or > local requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from the > explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate > storage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds of > explosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in this > situation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to document? > Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, I > answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate > Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering question 12 > now? > > Thanks for your input. > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From greg at blastzone.com Tue Nov 17 10:17:43 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:17:43 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17f701ca67b2$41e29b50$c5a7d1f0$@com> Same here. It expired, I let it go. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Greg Clark > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:59 AM > To: Scott Berfield > Cc: NW Rocketry > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > > I didn't renew my LEUP (contingent storage as well). There was no way I > was going to subject myself to ATF scrutiny just for a few ematches and a > little BP. So far, it's not been an issue..... > > -- Greg > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Scott Berfield wrote: > > > I don't have to renew for some time so haven't really thought about htis. I > > have a contingent storage setup and have nothign in storage anyway since I > > managed to go through all my reloads this year. > > > > If it weren't for electric matches, I don't know that I would even bother > > to renew. Have to think about that. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Don Houston [mailto:donhouston at bellsouth.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 09:48 AM > > To: 'NW Rocketry' > > Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > > > > Hello All,It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit > > of troubleto get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, > > butnecessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill > > outforms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state > > orlocal requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from > > theexplosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to > > alternatestorage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds > > ofexplosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in > > thissituation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to > > document?Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive > > materials, Ianswered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium > > PerchlorateComposite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering > > question 12now?Thanks for your > > input.Don_______________________________________________Rockets mailing > > listRockets at rocketsnw.comhttp://mx1.blast > > zone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From seth.wallace at rocketmail.com Tue Nov 17 10:42:43 2009 From: seth.wallace at rocketmail.com (Seth Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:42:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <510771.64416.qm@web65304.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> I just renewed recently, mostly for the hell of it and in case things swing back the other way. I answered ematches, igniters and BP. I'll probably go back to contingent storage next time though. I don't mind the $50 to the ATF as much as the $100 to the state of Washington SW --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Don Houston wrote: From: Don Houston Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage To: "NW Rocketry" Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 9:48 AM Hello All, It's time for my renewal for LEUP.? Initially it was quite a bit of trouble to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but necessary in order to fly high-power.? To continue, I just need to fill out forms and send $50.? I am in Florida and don't have any additional state or local requirements.? Now that APCP motors have been removed from the explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate storage and documented that in my records.? I now store 0.00 pounds of explosives and my magazine is empty.? What have others done in this situation?? What is the need for renewal?? Is there anything to document? Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, I answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord.? How are you answering question 12 now? Thanks for your input. Don _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 17 19:33:05 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:33:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <586d0cc4e7bf8b7a418f17e01c296796.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> It's really your call. There are instructions for closing down your magazine in the Orange Book. You will need to account for the disposition of all materials that were recorded as being in your magazine with plausible explanations that will satisfy the ATF. It's not generally considered likely that ATF will jump through all the hoops it has to in order to reclassify APCP as an explosive any time soon. But if you want to remain strictly legit about 'the other stuff' then keep the LEUP. It does simplify some things like buying ematches. Me, I scratched ATF off my back a couple years ago. My area of the contingency magazine was as empty of regulated stuff as my wallet was of money(which was one of the main reasons I didn't renew), so it was pretty simple for me: All gone, used up, bye bye, BATFree! These days, if I need an ematch I'll either bum one or make a similarly functioning item. +McG+ > Hello All, > > It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit of > trouble > to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but > necessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill > out > forms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state > or > local requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from the > explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate > storage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds of > explosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in this > situation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to document? > Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, > I > answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate > Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering question 12 > now? How about question 20, Does applicant intend to purchase explosive > materials in interstate or foreign commerce? If I want to order e-matches > from a dealer outside Florida, then I would answer "Yes". Is that how you > see it? > > Thanks for your input. > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 19:54:11 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:54:11 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] OROC Meeting Dec 3rd - Seeking Show & Tell Message-ID: The next OregonRocketry meeting is December 3rd 2009. Looking for anyone working on projects and wishing to share during the next meeting. Let me know, and you might be on the agenda. Cheers, Robert Get those honey-due lists done quickly so winter rocketry projects can begin. From bar0051 at homenetnw.net Tue Nov 17 20:02:34 2009 From: bar0051 at homenetnw.net (Bryon Schopp) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:02:34 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage References: Message-ID: <23D23F8CBE8042EDB0AE36F6073327B7@MEDIONDeskTop> I just sent off the $120 and another fingerprint card to Washington State L&I to renew my magazine license. I have been inspected by state L&I twice and have had no hassles, other than the hassle of getting fingerprinted every year. My BATFE license comes up for renewal in April and I do plan on renewing. I suspect that renewing will be a lot easier than getting a new license so I want to keep it up. I have never been inspected by the BATFE yet, but I am guessing that they will be pushing the issue of igniters and e-matches. If anyone who has renewed with the BATFE recently has any advise, please let me know. I suspect that there will come a time when all AP motors will be sold without igniters because they will be tightly regulated. I also see igniter making sessions at the launches to avoid all the hassle. I guess I am just a "glass half empty" kind of guy. Bryon . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Houston" To: "NW Rocketry" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:48 AM Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > Hello All, > > It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit of > trouble > to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but > necessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill > out > forms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state > or > local requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from the > explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate > storage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds of > explosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in this > situation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to document? > Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, > I > answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate > Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering question 12 > now? > > Thanks for your input. > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 20:32:15 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:32:15 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage References: <23D23F8CBE8042EDB0AE36F6073327B7@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: I'm letting it go. Come March, I plan not to renew. Several reasons. I can get anything I need via vendors on site. Those I cannot get there I'll need to find a different avenue. One reason is fireworks on the 4th in the neighborhood. I've avoided them ever since I got a LEUP. Once gone, I may reconsider. Without a leup you are giving a ticket at most. With a leup, I hear the penalty is far higher. I have no intent to get into trouble. That's why I've avoided fireworks since I got the lic. With AP free and clear to cert levels... I see no need for it. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryon Schopp" To: "Don Houston" ; "NW Rocketry" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage >I just sent off the $120 and another fingerprint card to Washington State >L&I to renew my magazine license. I have been inspected by state L&I twice >and have had no hassles, other than the hassle of getting fingerprinted >every year. My BATFE license comes up for renewal in April and I do plan >on renewing. I suspect that renewing will be a lot easier than getting a >new license so I want to keep it up. I have never been inspected by the >BATFE yet, but I am guessing that they will be pushing the issue of >igniters and e-matches. If anyone who has renewed with the BATFE recently >has any advise, please let me know. > I suspect that there will come a time when all AP motors will be sold > without igniters because they will be tightly regulated. I also see > igniter making sessions at the launches to avoid all the hassle. > I guess I am just a "glass half empty" kind of guy. > > Bryon > > . > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Houston" > To: "NW Rocketry" > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:48 AM > Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > > >> Hello All, >> >> It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit of >> trouble >> to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but >> necessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill >> out >> forms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state >> or >> local requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from the >> explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate >> storage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds of >> explosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in this >> situation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to document? >> Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, >> I >> answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate >> Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering question >> 12 >> now? >> >> Thanks for your input. >> >> Don >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Tue Nov 17 21:14:09 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:14:09 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage Message-ID: I suspect that there will soon be a time where all rocket motor igniters are exempt. Estes, Quest, Aerotech already are since they come with the unregulated motors. Seems silly to sell unregulated products but pull the igniters out of the packages to store in a magazine. ATF cannot even define what an igniter is, so how can they regulate them? We are our own worst enemy. Igniters are no more than electrically initiated sparklers. They sell sparklers at the corner Safeway for children to play with on the 4th of July. Mike F. In a message dated 11/17/2009 8:04:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, bar0051 at homenetnw.net writes: I suspect that there will come a time when all AP motors will be sold without igniters because they will be tightly regulated. I also see igniter making sessions at the launches to avoid all the hassle. From donhouston at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 18 05:43:33 2009 From: donhouston at bellsouth.net (Don Houston) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:43:33 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage Message-ID: Thanks for the feedback about LEUP renewal or not. I am going to go with Greg and Greg and just let it expire too. Don From seth.wallace at rocketmail.com Wed Nov 18 07:48:45 2009 From: seth.wallace at rocketmail.com (Seth Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:48:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: <23D23F8CBE8042EDB0AE36F6073327B7@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: <769806.52415.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Everyone, they are not "Igniters" they are "Motor starters" :) SW --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Bryon Schopp wrote: From: Bryon Schopp Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage To: "Don Houston" , "NW Rocketry" Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 8:02 PM I just sent off the $120 and another fingerprint card to Washington State L&I to renew my magazine license.? I have been inspected by state L&I twice and have had no hassles, other than the hassle of getting fingerprinted every year.? My BATFE license comes up for renewal in April and I do plan on renewing.? I suspect that renewing will be a lot easier than getting a new license so I want to keep it up.? I have never been inspected by the BATFE yet, but I am guessing that they will be pushing the issue of igniters and e-matches.? If anyone who has renewed with the BATFE recently has any advise, please let me know. I suspect that there will come a time when all AP motors will be sold without igniters because they will be tightly regulated.? I also see igniter making sessions at the launches to avoid all the hassle. I guess I am just a "glass half empty" kind of guy. Bryon . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Houston" To: "NW Rocketry" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:48 AM Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > Hello All, > > It's time for my renewal for LEUP.? Initially it was quite a bit of trouble > to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but > necessary in order to fly high-power.? To continue, I just need to fill out > forms and send $50.? I am in Florida and don't have any additional state or > local requirements.? Now that APCP motors have been removed from the > explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate > storage and documented that in my records.? I now store 0.00 pounds of > explosives and my magazine is empty.? What have others done in this > situation?? What is the need for renewal?? Is there anything to document? > Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, I > answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate > Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord.? How are you answering question 12 > now? > > Thanks for your input. > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From raystoner99 at comcast.net Wed Nov 18 08:55:23 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (raystoner99 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:55:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1603671081.3891611258563323226.JavaMail.root@sz0124a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> You could consider adding fireworks to your LEUP...that's one of the things its for! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "Bryon Schopp" , "Don Houston" , "NW Rocketry" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:32:15 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage I'm letting it go. Come March, I plan not to renew. Several reasons. I can get anything I need via vendors on site. Those I cannot get there I'll need to find a different avenue. One reason is fireworks on the 4th in the neighborhood. I've avoided them ever since I got a LEUP. Once gone, I may reconsider. Without a leup you are giving a ticket at most. With a leup, I hear the penalty is far higher. I have no intent to get into trouble. That's why I've avoided fireworks since I got the lic. With AP free and clear to cert levels... I see no need for it. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryon Schopp" To: "Don Houston" ; "NW Rocketry" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage >I just sent off the $120 and another fingerprint card to Washington State >L&I to renew my magazine license. I have been inspected by state L&I twice >and have had no hassles, other than the hassle of getting fingerprinted >every year. My BATFE license comes up for renewal in April and I do plan >on renewing. I suspect that renewing will be a lot easier than getting a >new license so I want to keep it up. I have never been inspected by the >BATFE yet, but I am guessing that they will be pushing the issue of >igniters and e-matches. If anyone who has renewed with the BATFE recently >has any advise, please let me know. > I suspect that there will come a time when all AP motors will be sold > without igniters because they will be tightly regulated. I also see > igniter making sessions at the launches to avoid all the hassle. > I guess I am just a "glass half empty" kind of guy. > > Bryon > > . > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Houston" > To: "NW Rocketry" > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:48 AM > Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > > >> Hello All, >> >> It's time for my renewal for LEUP. Initially it was quite a bit of >> trouble >> to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but >> necessary in order to fly high-power. To continue, I just need to fill >> out >> forms and send $50. I am in Florida and don't have any additional state >> or >> local requirements. Now that APCP motors have been removed from the >> explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate >> storage and documented that in my records. I now store 0.00 pounds of >> explosives and my magazine is empty. What have others done in this >> situation? What is the need for renewal? Is there anything to document? >> Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, >> I >> answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate >> Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord. How are you answering question >> 12 >> now? >> >> Thanks for your input. >> >> Don >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com Wed Nov 18 08:56:07 2009 From: john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com (john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:56:07 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: <769806.52415.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> References: <23D23F8CBE8042EDB0AE36F6073327B7@MEDIONDeskTop> <769806.52415.qm@web65308.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368857BBE59924@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> I wish it were that simple..... I know of several instances where the MIB have inspected and issued statements of non-conformance folks over igniters to rocket folks. John -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Seth Wallace Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:49 AM To: Don Houston; NW Rocketry; Bryon Schopp Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage Everyone, they are not "Igniters" they are "Motor starters" :) SW --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Bryon Schopp wrote: From: Bryon Schopp Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage To: "Don Houston" , "NW Rocketry" Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 8:02 PM I just sent off the $120 and another fingerprint card to Washington State L&I to renew my magazine license.? I have been inspected by state L&I twice and have had no hassles, other than the hassle of getting fingerprinted every year.? My BATFE license comes up for renewal in April and I do plan on renewing.? I suspect that renewing will be a lot easier than getting a new license so I want to keep it up.? I have never been inspected by the BATFE yet, but I am guessing that they will be pushing the issue of igniters and e-matches.? If anyone who has renewed with the BATFE recently has any advise, please let me know. I suspect that there will come a time when all AP motors will be sold without igniters because they will be tightly regulated.? I also see igniter making sessions at the launches to avoid all the hassle. I guess I am just a "glass half empty" kind of guy. Bryon . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Houston" To: "NW Rocketry" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:48 AM Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > Hello All, > > It's time for my renewal for LEUP.? Initially it was quite a bit of trouble > to get a variance for storage and expense to set everything up, but > necessary in order to fly high-power.? To continue, I just need to fill out > forms and send $50.? I am in Florida and don't have any additional state or > local requirements.? Now that APCP motors have been removed from the > explosives list, I removed them from my Type IV magazine to alternate > storage and documented that in my records.? I now store 0.00 pounds of > explosives and my magazine is empty.? What have others done in this > situation?? What is the need for renewal?? Is there anything to document? > Previously, in answer to the question about types of explosive materials, I > answered Rocket Motors, Igniters, Black powder, Ammonium Perchlorate > Composite Propellant, and Igniter cord.? How are you answering question 12 > now? > > Thanks for your input. > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From tomjerry1 at dishmail.net Wed Nov 18 09:17:22 2009 From: tomjerry1 at dishmail.net (Roy Jenkins) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:17:22 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage References: <23D23F8CBE8042EDB0AE36F6073327B7@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: <767944416BF44AF5800F37A2D2EF38B0@roy4700> Robert "One reason is fireworks on the 4th in the neighborhood. I've avoided them ever since I got a LEUP. Once gone, I may reconsider. Without a leup you are giving a ticket at most. With a leup, I hear the penalty is far higher" and here I thought when you obtain a federal license of a higher rating it covered anything of a lower rating guess I better look into this Roy From robert.krausert at intel.com Wed Nov 18 10:13:28 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:13:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: <767944416BF44AF5800F37A2D2EF38B0@roy4700> References: <23D23F8CBE8042EDB0AE36F6073327B7@MEDIONDeskTop> <767944416BF44AF5800F37A2D2EF38B0@roy4700> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E462F9DCD@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Hi Roy, Hey, I'm not an authority on the whole subject. I simply got it the LEUP to purchase AP as a result of the whole ATF October 2007 ruling. Honestly I thought what's listed on the provisions of the LEUP were limited to those items only. So that's why I was being careful. Yes, I'm admitting that I have not read the Orange Book. You maybe correct with respect to higher ratings. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Roy Jenkins Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:17 AM To: Robert Krausert; Bryon Schopp; Don Houston; NW Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage Robert "One reason is fireworks on the 4th in the neighborhood. I've avoided them ever since I got a LEUP. Once gone, I may reconsider. Without a leup you are giving a ticket at most. With a leup, I hear the penalty is far higher" and here I thought when you obtain a federal license of a higher rating it covered anything of a lower rating guess I better look into this Roy _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From carl at mousetrap.com Wed Nov 18 10:18:15 2009 From: carl at mousetrap.com (Carl Hamilton) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:18:15 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to everybody for your responses. FWIW, the general consensus is that the parts in the Econoline kits are standard PR components. Everybody who has purchased an Econoline kit (including myself) has been pleased with its quality. - Carl On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Azinger, Fred wrote: > This is one of most sure-fire ways to get PR parts. > > The "Econoline" is a name that implies "No Fincan" and nothing about the > quality of the fiberglass. > Curtis used to make a lot of fincan and wanted out of that biz. > He converted to "economy" fins cut from G-10 adding CF for the Mongeese. > The bodytubes and NC's are his standard product. > > IMHO, if you buy a kit you'll end up with a few goofy parts like his CR and > the MMT tube. > The upper airframe is also a compromise in length over what I would > normally want in that they are usually 24" in length which his half-tube > size. > I've got a stack of PR MMT's and short BT's that I'm not sure I'll every > use...... > > Check the Rockets Magazine site -- they have parts for sale as well as > kits. > Also, call Wildman, as he usually has parts too. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Robert Krausert > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:35 PM > To: Carl Hamilton; NorthWest Rocketry > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits > > Not sure. I've purchased only ala cart from PR. Two 6:1 nosecones and 4" to > 6" transitions. The conversions took 4 months. It was only Wildman that got > it moving. Curtis makes great stuff. So I'm not sure if the bottom bin is a > bad thing. I know paying ala cart, I paid. That kit comes complete with > enough to create something nice. > > Sorry not a complete answer. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Hamilton" > To: "NorthWest Rocketry" > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:15 PM > Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits > > > > I'm considering buying a Performance Rocketry Intimidator 5 kit just for > > the > > parts; it's significantly less expensive than purchasing them > > individually. Does anybody know if the components in Performance Rocketry > > "econoline" kits are the same ones that I can purchase ala carte? Can > > Curtis > > sell these kits at such a discount because they contain less expensive, > > inferior components? > > > > Thanks. > > > > - Carl > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From fred.azinger at intel.com Wed Nov 18 11:38:18 2009 From: fred.azinger at intel.com (Azinger, Fred) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:38:18 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been inside Curtis' "factory" in Johnstown, PA several times. His FG is all made using epoxy-bath-dipped, full-width windings pulled under tension onto a mandrel. He shifted cloth thickness a while back, but beyond that he has been consistent. His CF tubes used to be made with the same process, but the material cost forced a shift to buy a filament winder. Once rolled or wound, the mandrels are unloaded and placed in a curing oven. Once cured, the OD is ground on a huge, unique, grinder. I think (memory fuzzy) that the mandrels are pulled before grinding. He has a CNC router for cutting fins and another built just to cut slots. He does have some higher performance products that use higher temp and/or colored epoxy. But, you can assume his "Green G-10 tubes" are all the same product. His filament winder has the advantage that he can do long tubes. I have a six-foot 98mm CF tube that is going to be a sweet minimum diameter, O-impulse rocket someday. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Carl Hamilton Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:18 AM To: NorthWest Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits Thanks to everybody for your responses. FWIW, the general consensus is that the parts in the Econoline kits are standard PR components. Everybody who has purchased an Econoline kit (including myself) has been pleased with its quality. - Carl On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Azinger, Fred wrote: > This is one of most sure-fire ways to get PR parts. > > The "Econoline" is a name that implies "No Fincan" and nothing about the > quality of the fiberglass. > Curtis used to make a lot of fincan and wanted out of that biz. > He converted to "economy" fins cut from G-10 adding CF for the Mongeese. > The bodytubes and NC's are his standard product. > > IMHO, if you buy a kit you'll end up with a few goofy parts like his CR and > the MMT tube. > The upper airframe is also a compromise in length over what I would > normally want in that they are usually 24" in length which his half-tube > size. > I've got a stack of PR MMT's and short BT's that I'm not sure I'll every > use...... > > Check the Rockets Magazine site -- they have parts for sale as well as > kits. > Also, call Wildman, as he usually has parts too. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Robert Krausert > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:35 PM > To: Carl Hamilton; NorthWest Rocketry > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits > > Not sure. I've purchased only ala cart from PR. Two 6:1 nosecones and 4" to > 6" transitions. The conversions took 4 months. It was only Wildman that got > it moving. Curtis makes great stuff. So I'm not sure if the bottom bin is a > bad thing. I know paying ala cart, I paid. That kit comes complete with > enough to create something nice. > > Sorry not a complete answer. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Hamilton" > To: "NorthWest Rocketry" > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:15 PM > Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits > > > > I'm considering buying a Performance Rocketry Intimidator 5 kit just for > > the > > parts; it's significantly less expensive than purchasing them > > individually. Does anybody know if the components in Performance Rocketry > > "econoline" kits are the same ones that I can purchase ala carte? Can > > Curtis > > sell these kits at such a discount because they contain less expensive, > > inferior components? > > > > Thanks. > > > > - Carl > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sb at berfield.com Wed Nov 18 11:45:14 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:45:14 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Performance Rocketry Econoline kits Message-ID: I have been VERY pleased with the performance of my Competitor 4" -- the materials and fit all are top notch. I would definitely buy parts and/or kits from PR again without hesitation. From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 18 15:18:39 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:18:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E462F9DCD@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com > References: <23D23F8CBE8042EDB0AE36F6073327B7@MEDIONDeskTop> <767944416BF44AF5800F37A2D2EF38B0@roy4700> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E462F9DCD@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <313e916b1f5bad5a518c18c07d461bc2.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> WRT to fireworks it's not just ATF. They're perfectly happy if you store those in an ATF licensed magazine. The hard part is, they also demand compliance with state and local laws. At least here in Clark County, "not nohow not noway" will the county fire marshal sign off on allowing fireworks to be kept and stored beyond the OTC stuff in the very limited time period allowed for those. Bingo bango, there's your flagrant violation of explosives possession/storage/use that as a LEUP holder you're supposed to know better than to do. Under the legal doctrine of "equal protection" you're guiltier than someone without a LEUP. Hello pot of boiling oil! When it comes to fireworks, it's actually better NOT to have the LEUP and to play dumb. Remember the Three Basic Rules: 1) Try not to blow yourself up. 2) Make darn sure you don't blow up the neighbors. 3) Don't get caught! Better than a LEUP any day for the average Joe. +McG+ > Hi Roy, > Hey, I'm not an authority on the whole subject. I simply got it the LEUP > to purchase AP as a result of the whole ATF October 2007 ruling. Honestly > I thought what's listed on the provisions of the LEUP were limited to > those items only. So that's why I was being careful. Yes, I'm admitting > that I have not read the Orange Book. > > You maybe correct with respect to higher ratings. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Roy Jenkins > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:17 AM > To: Robert Krausert; Bryon Schopp; Don Houston; NW Rocketry > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > > Robert > > "One reason is fireworks on the 4th in the neighborhood. I've avoided them > ever since I got a LEUP. Once gone, I may reconsider. Without a leup you > are > giving a ticket at most. With a leup, I hear the penalty is far higher" > > and here I thought when you obtain a federal license of a higher rating it > covered anything of a lower rating > > guess I better look into this > > Roy > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From robert.krausert at intel.com Wed Nov 18 15:53:57 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:53:57 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage In-Reply-To: <313e916b1f5bad5a518c18c07d461bc2.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <23D23F8CBE8042EDB0AE36F6073327B7@MEDIONDeskTop> <767944416BF44AF5800F37A2D2EF38B0@roy4700> <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E462F9DCD@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <313e916b1f5bad5a518c18c07d461bc2.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E462FA2AC@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> I only do mortars. Does that make it less, no. Because they're really cool and because skyrockets are often duds or have insufficient thrust. Skyrockets seem to have magnets towards trees and roof tops. Odd. Mortars either shot or don't. A few years ago the neighbor and I went in on a bunch of mortars from a sale in Washington. During the evening we did have a police officer pull up. But wasn't doing anything. My neighbor walked over and said something to him. And a few moments later he turn off the headlights of the police car. I asked, and he basically asked him to turn off his lights. He never got out. He watched us for a several minutes and left. Later found out by my neighbor that the officer was also a neighbor around the block. But when I got my LEUP, I wasn't going to risk it. Even to a neighbor. I'm a mostly a law abiding person. But truly enjoy a little "over the top" during the 4th. Letting the LEUP go and going back to being just another "Joe the plumber" is fine with me. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:19 PM To: Krausert, Robert Cc: Don Houston; NW Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage WRT to fireworks it's not just ATF. They're perfectly happy if you store those in an ATF licensed magazine. The hard part is, they also demand compliance with state and local laws. At least here in Clark County, "not nohow not noway" will the county fire marshal sign off on allowing fireworks to be kept and stored beyond the OTC stuff in the very limited time period allowed for those. Bingo bango, there's your flagrant violation of explosives possession/storage/use that as a LEUP holder you're supposed to know better than to do. Under the legal doctrine of "equal protection" you're guiltier than someone without a LEUP. Hello pot of boiling oil! When it comes to fireworks, it's actually better NOT to have the LEUP and to play dumb. Remember the Three Basic Rules: 1) Try not to blow yourself up. 2) Make darn sure you don't blow up the neighbors. 3) Don't get caught! Better than a LEUP any day for the average Joe. +McG+ > Hi Roy, > Hey, I'm not an authority on the whole subject. I simply got it the LEUP > to purchase AP as a result of the whole ATF October 2007 ruling. Honestly > I thought what's listed on the provisions of the LEUP were limited to > those items only. So that's why I was being careful. Yes, I'm admitting > that I have not read the Orange Book. > > You maybe correct with respect to higher ratings. > > Cheers, > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Roy Jenkins > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:17 AM > To: Robert Krausert; Bryon Schopp; Don Houston; NW Rocketry > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] LEUP renewal w/storage > > Robert > > "One reason is fireworks on the 4th in the neighborhood. I've avoided them > ever since I got a LEUP. Once gone, I may reconsider. Without a leup you > are > giving a ticket at most. With a leup, I hear the penalty is far higher" > > and here I thought when you obtain a federal license of a higher rating it > covered anything of a lower rating > > guess I better look into this > > Roy > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 21:32:38 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:32:38 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork Message-ID: <03F4CDC5E4DC4126A5EA488E6573FDC5@LaptopKrausert> Back on September 4th I made a request, This was to provide the top reasons the current OregonRocketry president is a dork. This was asked, and you responsed. Here are the results; - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] - Uhhhhh, for sending an e-mail like this? [Paul Bogdanish] - Because you are still a Grasshopper [John Cox] - Try to glass quantum tube when there is so much evidence that this does not work in the first place. [Joe Bevier] - Drive to Brothers and not fly a single rocket. [Joe Bevier] - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] - Convinced someone to drive all the way out to Brothers to see a 38mm dia. x 5181mm long baby-O motor. [Joe Bevier] - Allow himself to get elected. [Joe Bevier] - Be that nice. [Joe Bevier] - Demonstrate ejection charges on the curb in front of his house. [Joe Bevier] - Think Moammar Gadhafi is a great public speaker. [Joe Bevier] - Want to buy a launch site in Iraq because the land is so cheap! [Joe Bevier] - Nominate Roman Polanski as our next club president [Joe Bevier] The runner up winner is the following: - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] The winner, and all based on my opinion. Is the following: - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] Congratulations to our winner. I'll bring a like high power prize for you at the next meeting, provided by Estes. Cheers, Robert From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 18 22:17:15 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:17:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork In-Reply-To: <03F4CDC5E4DC4126A5EA488E6573FDC5@LaptopKrausert> References: <03F4CDC5E4DC4126A5EA488E6573FDC5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <83b8171d3404362b34fc86d0468cec96.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> > Congratulations to our winner. I'll bring a like high power prize for you at the next meeting, provided by Estes. A "mighty Estes D"? :) +McG+ > Back on September 4th I made a request, This was to provide the top > reasons the current OregonRocketry president is a dork. > > This was asked, and you responsed. Here are the results; > - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] > - Uhhhhh, for sending an e-mail like this? [Paul Bogdanish] > - Because you are still a Grasshopper [John Cox] > - Try to glass quantum tube when there is so much evidence that this does > not work in the first place. [Joe Bevier] > - Drive to Brothers and not fly a single rocket. [Joe Bevier] > - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] > - Convinced someone to drive all the way out to Brothers to see a 38mm > dia. x 5181mm long baby-O motor. [Joe Bevier] > - Allow himself to get elected. [Joe Bevier] > - Be that nice. [Joe Bevier] > - Demonstrate ejection charges on the curb in front of his house. [Joe > Bevier] > - Think Moammar Gadhafi is a great public speaker. [Joe Bevier] > - Want to buy a launch site in Iraq because the land is so cheap! [Joe > Bevier] > - Nominate Roman Polanski as our next club president [Joe Bevier] > > The runner up winner is the following: > - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] > > The winner, and all based on my opinion. Is the following: > - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] > > Congratulations to our winner. I'll bring a like high power prize for you > at the next meeting, provided by Estes. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From vincesimoneau at msn.com Wed Nov 18 22:19:30 2009 From: vincesimoneau at msn.com (Vince Simoneau) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:19:30 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork In-Reply-To: <03F4CDC5E4DC4126A5EA488E6573FDC5@LaptopKrausert> References: <03F4CDC5E4DC4126A5EA488E6573FDC5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: OH WoW !!! EVeroNe I nO R Dorks /! > From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com > To: members at oregonrocketry.org; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:32:38 -0800 > Subject: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork > > Back on September 4th I made a request, This was to provide the top reasons the current OregonRocketry president is a dork. > > This was asked, and you responsed. Here are the results; > - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] > - Uhhhhh, for sending an e-mail like this? [Paul Bogdanish] > - Because you are still a Grasshopper [John Cox] > - Try to glass quantum tube when there is so much evidence that this does not work in the first place. [Joe Bevier] > - Drive to Brothers and not fly a single rocket. [Joe Bevier] > - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] > - Convinced someone to drive all the way out to Brothers to see a 38mm dia. x 5181mm long baby-O motor. [Joe Bevier] > - Allow himself to get elected. [Joe Bevier] > - Be that nice. [Joe Bevier] > - Demonstrate ejection charges on the curb in front of his house. [Joe Bevier] > - Think Moammar Gadhafi is a great public speaker. [Joe Bevier] > - Want to buy a launch site in Iraq because the land is so cheap! [Joe Bevier] > - Nominate Roman Polanski as our next club president [Joe Bevier] > > The runner up winner is the following: > - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] > > The winner, and all based on my opinion. Is the following: > - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] > > Congratulations to our winner. I'll bring a like high power prize for you at the next meeting, provided by Estes. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From cpovercg at rocketmail.com Wed Nov 18 22:51:16 2009 From: cpovercg at rocketmail.com (Robert Braibish) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork In-Reply-To: <03F4CDC5E4DC4126A5EA488E6573FDC5@LaptopKrausert> References: <03F4CDC5E4DC4126A5EA488E6573FDC5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <934705.84964.qm@web112910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dang! I missed it... I was still making my list..... BTW, what is the upper size limit for email? rb ________________________________ From: Robert Krausert To: members at oregonrocketry.org; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 9:32:38 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork Back on September 4th I made a request, This was to provide the top reasons the current OregonRocketry president is a dork. This was asked, and you responsed. Here are the results; - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] - Uhhhhh, for sending an e-mail like this? [Paul Bogdanish] - Because you are still a Grasshopper [John Cox] - Try to glass quantum tube when there is so much evidence that this does not work in the first place. [Joe Bevier] - Drive to Brothers and not fly a single rocket. [Joe Bevier] - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] - Convinced someone to drive all the way out to Brothers to see a 38mm dia. x 5181mm long baby-O motor. [Joe Bevier] - Allow himself to get elected. [Joe Bevier] - Be that nice. [Joe Bevier] - Demonstrate ejection charges on the curb in front of his house. [Joe Bevier] - Think Moammar Gadhafi is a great public speaker. [Joe Bevier] - Want to buy a launch site in Iraq because the land is so cheap! [Joe Bevier] - Nominate Roman Polanski as our next club president [Joe Bevier] The runner up winner is the following: - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] The winner, and all based on my opinion. Is the following: - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] Congratulations to our winner. I'll bring a like high power prize for you at the next meeting, provided by Estes. Cheers, Robert _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From vincesimoneau at msn.com Thu Nov 19 00:46:18 2009 From: vincesimoneau at msn.com (Vince Simoneau) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:46:18 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork In-Reply-To: <934705.84964.qm@web112910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <03F4CDC5E4DC4126A5EA488E6573FDC5@LaptopKrausert>, <934705.84964.qm@web112910.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: $40gigagigabiyte's > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:51:16 -0800 > From: cpovercg at rocketmail.com > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; members at oregonrocketry.org; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork > > Dang! I missed it... > I was still making my list..... > BTW, what is the upper size limit for email? > > rb > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Robert Krausert > To: members at oregonrocketry.org; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 9:32:38 PM > Subject: [RocketsNW] Results: Why the OROC President is a dork > > Back on September 4th I made a request, This was to provide the top reasons the current OregonRocketry president is a dork. > > This was asked, and you responsed. Here are the results; > - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] > - Uhhhhh, for sending an e-mail like this? [Paul Bogdanish] > - Because you are still a Grasshopper [John Cox] > - Try to glass quantum tube when there is so much evidence that this does not work in the first place. [Joe Bevier] > - Drive to Brothers and not fly a single rocket. [Joe Bevier] > - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] > - Convinced someone to drive all the way out to Brothers to see a 38mm dia. x 5181mm long baby-O motor. [Joe Bevier] > - Allow himself to get elected. [Joe Bevier] > - Be that nice. [Joe Bevier] > - Demonstrate ejection charges on the curb in front of his house. [Joe Bevier] > - Think Moammar Gadhafi is a great public speaker. [Joe Bevier] > - Want to buy a launch site in Iraq because the land is so cheap! [Joe Bevier] > - Nominate Roman Polanski as our next club president [Joe Bevier] > > The runner up winner is the following: > - Because he loves beer more than trailer parties? [Gwen Moscoe] > > The winner, and all based on my opinion. Is the following: > - nt tak advantuj ob da wundurs ob spael Czech. [Joe Bevier] > > Congratulations to our winner. I'll bring a like high power prize for you at the next meeting, provided by Estes. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From rnech at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 17:55:44 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:55:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] LockMart Tests Carbon Nanotube-Based Memory Devices On Shuttle Message-ID: <93914.75498.qm@web111404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> LockMart Tests Carbon Nanotube-Based Memory Devices On Shuttle http://www.space-travel.com/reports/LockMart_Tests_Carbon_Nanotube_Based_Memory_Devices_On_Shuttle_999.html (excerpt) A radiation-resistant version of NRAM carbon-nanotube-based memory, developed jointly by Lockheed Martin and Nantero, was tested on a recent Space Shuttle mission. The NRAM was incorporated by NASA into special autonomous testing configurations installed into a carrier at the aft end of the payload bay."This demonstration of carbon-nanotube-based semiconductor devices in the rigorous conditions of space is an important step towards a whole new suite of future applications." The experiment was a proof-of-concept that enabled the testing of launch and re-entry survivability, as well as basic functionality of the carbon nanotube switches on orbit throughout the shuttle mission. The NRAM devices were early prototype parts, and performed the same before, during, and after completion of the mission. This mission represents an important first step in the development of high-density, non-volatile, carbon-nanotube-based memories for spaceflight applications. Lockheed Martin and NASA are working on plans for future NRAM flights. Carbon nanotubes are half the density of aluminum, 50 times stronger than steel, thermally stable in vacuum up to nearly 3,000 degrees Centigrade, efficient conductors of heat and may be either metallic or direct bandgap semiconductors. From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Thu Nov 19 19:37:39 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:37:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] LockMart Tests Carbon Nanotube-Based Memory Devices On Shuttle In-Reply-To: <93914.75498.qm@web111404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <93914.75498.qm@web111404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50af63175c888f154f5374966613dbb5.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Oh man, just when I've finally memorized the difference between SRAM and DRAM now they go and come up with this NRAM stuff...and my slide rule needs re-lubricating too! At least I've largely avoided cluttering up my office with Post-itRAM like a lot of people! Heh. I've only been able to locate the first part of Gassaway's sunseeker article in HPRM. Dunno whatever happened to the issue with part two. I might be begging for a photocopy or scan of that if I can't find the magazine in my rat nest pretty soon. I'm a pretty big packrat and it's a *big* rat nest. +McG+ > LockMart Tests Carbon Nanotube-Based Memory Devices On Shuttle > > http://www.space-travel.com/reports/LockMart_Tests_Carbon_Nanotube_Based_Memory_Devices_On_Shuttle_999.html > > (excerpt) > A radiation-resistant version of NRAM carbon-nanotube-based memory, > developed jointly by Lockheed Martin and Nantero, was tested on a recent > Space Shuttle mission. The NRAM was incorporated by NASA into special > autonomous testing configurations installed into a carrier at the aft end > of the payload bay."This demonstration of carbon-nanotube-based > semiconductor devices in the rigorous conditions of space is an important > step towards a whole new suite of future applications." > > The experiment was a proof-of-concept that enabled the testing of launch > and re-entry survivability, as well as basic functionality of the carbon > nanotube switches on orbit throughout the shuttle mission. The NRAM > devices were early prototype parts, and performed the same before, during, > and after completion of the mission. > > This mission represents an important first step in the development of > high-density, non-volatile, carbon-nanotube-based memories for spaceflight > applications. Lockheed Martin and NASA are working on plans for future > NRAM flights. > > Carbon nanotubes are half the density of aluminum, 50 times stronger than > steel, thermally stable in vacuum up to nearly 3,000 degrees Centigrade, > efficient conductors of heat and may be either metallic or direct bandgap > semiconductors. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From sealtee at cableone.net Thu Nov 19 21:36:48 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:36:48 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Message-ID: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron From greg at bigredbee.com Thu Nov 19 21:54:24 2009 From: greg at bigredbee.com (Greg Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:54:24 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> Message-ID: Cameron, The BeeLine will transmit just fine through the fiberglass, just avoid carbon fiber (and if you're using a GPS, avoid metallic paint as well). re: the heat. I wouldn't worry too much about it, from what I can tell, the worse that will happen is you'll mess up your paint job. THe amount of time spent at those really high speeds is going to be very small. Heck, I bet that even a (stout) plastic nosecone would survive. If you're really worried, put an aluminum top on your fiberglass nosecone. -- Greg On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: > Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All > that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm > sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is > what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm > motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I > saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe > Carl > H. could shed some light on who it was. > > In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into > an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler > is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment > charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum > coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is > the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In > this > design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The > motor IS part of the airframe. > > OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin > can > and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that > discussion > that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high > velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I > see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max > velocity > of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is > heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline > transmitter that I want to put in the nose. > > So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone > take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? > Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether > and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the > rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > Cameron > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From tfish38 at aol.com Thu Nov 19 22:30:46 2009 From: tfish38 at aol.com (tfish38 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:30:46 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> Message-ID: <8CC37C22098BE57-6234-5E54@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> Cameron, Over the last couple of years this is what I have been playing with. The first one was a 5" min dia rocket http://wimpyrockets.com/page18.html It got misplaced at balls while being tracked after apogee, when another Walston one the same frequency got turned on back at camp. I'm at work and don't have my sims here..IIRC it simmed to near mach 3. The fins must have stayed on..since they did not rain down on us and the rocket stayed on course. It was just .125 G10 with a couple of layers of carbon fiber tip to tip. At this years Balls I did a 98mm version using a 64" long Dr Rockets motor. http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/tfish38/Ode.jpg It to got mispaced..it suffered from cold batteries and ended up with no deployment..some place out there is a 4" diameter hole in the ground. It too had .125" G-10 fins with tip to tip. The point of this email is that the concept works. You don't need really exotic materials to make it work..tracking and other little gotcha's have to be worked out. And yes I'm gonna try it again at Balls next year. Tony -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Tinder To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 9:36 pm Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All hat discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm ure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is hat I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm otors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I aw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl . could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into n aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler s the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment harge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum oupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is he same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this esign, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The otor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can nd there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion hat I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high elocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I ee it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity f almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is eat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline ransmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone ake this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? hould I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether nd be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the ocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ ockets mailing list ockets at rocketsnw.com ttp://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sealtee at cableone.net Thu Nov 19 22:45:14 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:45:14 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: <8CC37C22098BE57-6234-5E54@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> <8CC37C22098BE57-6234-5E54@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <005001ca69ad$043d10d0$0cb73270$@net> Very nice Tony! What you have done is exactly what I am doing, only quite a bit larger! A couple of questions here. Were you able to track the thing on the way up or just beginning after it separated at apogee? Also what did you do on the leading edge of the fins? Thanks, Cameron From: tfish38 at aol.com [mailto:tfish38 at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:31 PM To: sealtee at cableone.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Cameron, Over the last couple of years this is what I have been playing with. The first one was a 5" min dia rocket http://wimpyrockets.com/page18.html It got misplaced at balls while being tracked after apogee, when another Walston one the same frequency got turned on back at camp. I'm at work and don't have my sims here..IIRC it simmed to near mach 3. The fins must have stayed on..since they did not rain down on us and the rocket stayed on course. It was just .125 G10 with a couple of layers of carbon fiber tip to tip. At this years Balls I did a 98mm version using a 64" long Dr Rockets motor. http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/tfish38/Ode.jpg It to got mispaced..it suffered from cold batteries and ended up with no deployment..some place out there is a 4" diameter hole in the ground. It too had .125" G-10 fins with tip to tip. The point of this email is that the concept works. You don't need really exotic materials to make it work..tracking and other little gotcha's have to be worked out. And yes I'm gonna try it again at Balls next year. Tony -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Tinder To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 9:36 pm Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From carl at mousetrap.com Fri Nov 20 07:26:02 2009 From: carl at mousetrap.com (Carl Hamilton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:26:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Cameron Tinder wrote: > Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All > that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm > sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is > what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm > motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I > saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe > Carl > H. could shed some light on who it was. > > In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into > an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler > is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment > charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum > coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is > the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In > this > design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The > motor IS part of the airframe. > At first I figured you were talking about Bob Yanecek or Jim or Rob Jopson. They have been using the fin-can-over-the-motor-which-is-also-a-coupler design for as long as I've known them. However, when you mentioned the milled and turned coupler; that has to be the meticulous work of Robert Simpson-Clark. - Carl From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Fri Nov 20 07:49:21 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:49:21 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: <005001ca69ad$043d10d0$0cb73270$@net> References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> <8CC37C22098BE57-6234-5E54@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> <005001ca69ad$043d10d0$0cb73270$@net> Message-ID: <004001ca69f9$0776f490$1664ddb0$@net> Cameron, I cover the leading edge of the fins with a layer of fiberglass after the tip-to-tip glass or carbon fiber is attached and smoothed. You need to use a fabric that drapes well (I use 3 - 4 oz satin weave) and lay it so that the tows run at a 45 degree angle to the leading edge. I then cover it with peel ply and vacuum bag it to make sure it is tightly attached (I do all three fins at once). Be careful not to sand through this layer on the leading edge or it was a waste of time. I am concerned about the high speed airflow getting into a small defect in the leading edge and peeling things apart. I have seen this failure mode a few times, but I have seen others with just tip-to-tip without peeling. Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:45 PM To: tfish38 at aol.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Very nice Tony! What you have done is exactly what I am doing, only quite a bit larger! A couple of questions here. Were you able to track the thing on the way up or just beginning after it separated at apogee? Also what did you do on the leading edge of the fins? Thanks, Cameron From: tfish38 at aol.com [mailto:tfish38 at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:31 PM To: sealtee at cableone.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Cameron, Over the last couple of years this is what I have been playing with. The first one was a 5" min dia rocket http://wimpyrockets.com/page18.html It got misplaced at balls while being tracked after apogee, when another Walston one the same frequency got turned on back at camp. I'm at work and don't have my sims here..IIRC it simmed to near mach 3. The fins must have stayed on..since they did not rain down on us and the rocket stayed on course. It was just .125 G10 with a couple of layers of carbon fiber tip to tip. At this years Balls I did a 98mm version using a 64" long Dr Rockets motor. http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/tfish38/Ode.jpg It to got mispaced..it suffered from cold batteries and ended up with no deployment..some place out there is a 4" diameter hole in the ground. It too had .125" G-10 fins with tip to tip. The point of this email is that the concept works. You don't need really exotic materials to make it work..tracking and other little gotcha's have to be worked out. And yes I'm gonna try it again at Balls next year. Tony -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Tinder To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 9:36 pm Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Simpsonclark at aol.com Fri Nov 20 08:52:13 2009 From: Simpsonclark at aol.com (Simpsonclark at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:52:13 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Message-ID: Cameron- The 38mm true minimum you saw was mine. I flew it there on an H123W (2 grain) and in Oct on an I161W. The tracker I used was built for the rocket on a 500mw Q-kits transmitter. I used CF for the fin can and nosecone and glass for the BT so that the radio worked throughout the flight. The flight you saw was nominal, with 98% of sim achieved. The tracker worked fine. The next flight was a good boost, straight through the designed test of 3 seconds in the trans/supersonic flight area. We heard deployment, but lost tracker and visual (very small chute at apogee). Hope it shows up some day. You mentioned 9v battery. Actually, to keep the size small, I wanted to back the power supply against the missleworks rrc2-mini, which required a smaller battery. I stripped the plastic shell off a lithium-ion battery and removed the amp-limiter and added a 1/2AA 6v battery in series to give 9.7v to the RRC2 and then tapped the Lithium-ion battery for the deployment amperage (10 amps with the limiter removed). I used a 6v lithium photo-battery for the radio on the first flight and a 6v Duracell for the second light. I think that was the radio problem; too high a load for the alkaline cell. I have built more components so I will be continuing flight tests this spring. I hope to do a construction article soon for NWRocketry. Like the other responses, I'm not too worried about heat, although I will make an autoclaved 300 degree F nosecone for the J570. I already bake the fin can to get up to about 200 degree glass transition temperature, but I'm not using the highest temp epoxy available. In a message dated 11/19/2009 10:37:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sealtee at cableone.net writes: Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From sealtee at cableone.net Fri Nov 20 09:17:00 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:17:00 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01ca6a05$458fe780$d0afb680$@net> Very good Robert! Glad to give credit where credit is due. Your H123 rocket did indeed leave a lasting impression even though at that time I had a whopper of a headache! Obviously that "planted the seed" and away I go! My rocket is also using CF fin can with 1 layer of fiberglass half way tip to tip and one layer CF tip to tip. I am using a CF airframe and will probably use a fiber glassed nose cone. My though is to use a Beeline in the nose cone. It seems that the consensus of opinion is the FG nose cone should take the heat plenty well enough and the Beeline should transmit well enough through the glass. I still have many details to work out, but this is where the fun lies! Look forward to seeing your creations in the field! Take care, Cameron From: Simpsonclark at aol.com [mailto:Simpsonclark at aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:52 AM To: sealtee at cableone.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Cameron- The 38mm true minimum you saw was mine. I flew it there on an H123W (2 grain) and in Oct on an I161W. The tracker I used was built for the rocket on a 500mw Q-kits transmitter. I used CF for the fin can and nosecone and glass for the BT so that the radio worked throughout the flight. The flight you saw was nominal, with 98% of sim achieved. The tracker worked fine. The next flight was a good boost, straight through the designed test of 3 seconds in the trans/supersonic flight area. We heard deployment, but lost tracker and visual (very small chute at apogee). Hope it shows up some day. You mentioned 9v battery. Actually, to keep the size small, I wanted to back the power supply against the missleworks rrc2-mini, which required a smaller battery. I stripped the plastic shell off a lithium-ion battery and removed the amp-limiter and added a 1/2AA 6v battery in series to give 9.7v to the RRC2 and then tapped the Lithium-ion battery for the deployment amperage (10 amps with the limiter removed). I used a 6v lithium photo-battery for the radio on the first flight and a 6v Duracell for the second light. I think that was the radio problem; too high a load for the alkaline cell. I have built more components so I will be continuing flight tests this spring. I hope to do a construction article soon for NWRocketry. Like the other responses, I'm not too worried about heat, although I will make an autoclaved 300 degree F nosecone for the J570. I already bake the fin can to get up to about 200 degree glass transition temperature, but I'm not using the highest temp epoxy available. In a message dated 11/19/2009 10:37:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sealtee at cableone.net writes: Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From ghuber at landacorp.com Fri Nov 20 14:05:13 2009 From: ghuber at landacorp.com (Geoff Huber) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:05:13 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> Message-ID: My dart this year was a fin can slid over a motor... 4" O motor with a dart on top... http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS856 6.jpg http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS868 0.jpg It is the way to go IMO... have fun! Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:37 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From arrsales at cox.net Fri Nov 20 14:31:23 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:31:23 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> Message-ID: That's freakin insane.. Flight details? Mach how fast? :) -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Huber Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:05 PM To: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? My dart this year was a fin can slid over a motor... 4" O motor with a dart on top... http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS856 6.jpg http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS868 0.jpg It is the way to go IMO... have fun! Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:37 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From ghuber at landacorp.com Fri Nov 20 14:54:11 2009 From: ghuber at landacorp.com (Geoff Huber) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:54:11 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> Message-ID: It was a 4" dia case, .125 wall 6061. About 25,000ns stuffed in it. I case bonded the motor so no thick liner to deal with and get more into the case. Double tapered core with the middle of the core being the smallest. It was a core burner and the motor worked great!. The interstage coupler failed 4-5 seconds into the flight and folded the dart off the toop. The dart was 1.5" dia aluminum tube. The dart has a nice radius bend in it from the AOA bending it off when it failed! The electronics were damaged but I think that I may be able to repair them well enough to get the data out. Time will tell. If it had worked I suspect the dart would of gone north of 80k but I am not sure as I don't have any software that can sim Darts very well above mach and I'm sure it would of gone Mach 2+. Not sure if I will do the 4" O again or bring out the 3" booster version next year. 17,000ns 3" motor. Should be fun with a dart on it. It will be fun one way or another as always. Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 2:31 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? That's freakin insane.. Flight details? Mach how fast? :) -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Huber Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:05 PM To: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? My dart this year was a fin can slid over a motor... 4" O motor with a dart on top... http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS856 6.jpg http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS868 0.jpg It is the way to go IMO... have fun! Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:37 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From arrsales at cox.net Fri Nov 20 14:56:14 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:56:14 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> Message-ID: <3F4BCC340F4D42DA9B753AAA37643A84@apcp.local> Wow! Nice work nonetheless!! -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Huber Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:54 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? It was a 4" dia case, .125 wall 6061. About 25,000ns stuffed in it. I case bonded the motor so no thick liner to deal with and get more into the case. Double tapered core with the middle of the core being the smallest. It was a core burner and the motor worked great!. The interstage coupler failed 4-5 seconds into the flight and folded the dart off the toop. The dart was 1.5" dia aluminum tube. The dart has a nice radius bend in it from the AOA bending it off when it failed! The electronics were damaged but I think that I may be able to repair them well enough to get the data out. Time will tell. If it had worked I suspect the dart would of gone north of 80k but I am not sure as I don't have any software that can sim Darts very well above mach and I'm sure it would of gone Mach 2+. Not sure if I will do the 4" O again or bring out the 3" booster version next year. 17,000ns 3" motor. Should be fun with a dart on it. It will be fun one way or another as always. Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 2:31 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? That's freakin insane.. Flight details? Mach how fast? :) -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Huber Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:05 PM To: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? My dart this year was a fin can slid over a motor... 4" O motor with a dart on top... http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS856 6.jpg http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS868 0.jpg It is the way to go IMO... have fun! Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:37 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From ghuber at landacorp.com Fri Nov 20 15:06:14 2009 From: ghuber at landacorp.com (Geoff Huber) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:06:14 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? In-Reply-To: <3F4BCC340F4D42DA9B753AAA37643A84@apcp.local> References: <003301ca69a3$74e2d950$5ea88bf0$@net> <3F4BCC340F4D42DA9B753AAA37643A84@apcp.local> Message-ID: Will probably come back with the 3" version as I think I can make the 6 foot long 3" case work. That and a interstage coupler machined out of a solid block of aluminum should solve this years problem. Go fast... go high... See ya on the playa..... G -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 2:56 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Wow! Nice work nonetheless!! -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Huber Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:54 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? It was a 4" dia case, .125 wall 6061. About 25,000ns stuffed in it. I case bonded the motor so no thick liner to deal with and get more into the case. Double tapered core with the middle of the core being the smallest. It was a core burner and the motor worked great!. The interstage coupler failed 4-5 seconds into the flight and folded the dart off the toop. The dart was 1.5" dia aluminum tube. The dart has a nice radius bend in it from the AOA bending it off when it failed! The electronics were damaged but I think that I may be able to repair them well enough to get the data out. Time will tell. If it had worked I suspect the dart would of gone north of 80k but I am not sure as I don't have any software that can sim Darts very well above mach and I'm sure it would of gone Mach 2+. Not sure if I will do the 4" O again or bring out the 3" booster version next year. 17,000ns 3" motor. Should be fun with a dart on it. It will be fun one way or another as always. Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 2:31 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? That's freakin insane.. Flight details? Mach how fast? :) -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Huber Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:05 PM To: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? My dart this year was a fin can slid over a motor... 4" O motor with a dart on top... http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS856 6.jpg http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS868 0.jpg It is the way to go IMO... have fun! Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:37 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From dmrandall at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 16:17:54 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:17:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Sunday Nov 22 "Turkey Shoot" Launch at 60 Acres Message-ID: <6bc920e40911201617s2cf80912xf8b1e53e07f872bb@mail.gmail.com> For those folks wondering about the upcoming launch on Sunday and our wild November weather... Short answer: Launch is planned to be from 1 pm - 3 pm. Long answer: Weather currently calls for high winds on Saturday - 25-35 mph in the Seattle/Tacoma/Everett area. The rain is expected to continue Saturday night and Sunday morning... with some sunbreaks possible by Sunday afternoon. Temps in the mid-40's. Mid to late day winds are down to 7mph - which may still be risky for high(er) flying rockets. So, I think 10am is just too early to start the launch. Take some time in the morning to prep your rockets, pack your chutes, dig out your ignitors and field kits. Grab lunch, then head on over. Flying time will be compressed, so we will have an acting LCO to manage the flights. I will have launch rods, one rail as well as the central launch controller on site. You don't need to worry about bringing your own GSE, it will be set up and available for you. See you on the field! Dave Randall P.S. Information about the 60 Acres field is here: http://www.rocketsnw.com/?page_id=545 From jeff at aew-inc.com Fri Nov 20 16:38:43 2009 From: jeff at aew-inc.com (Jeff Mobley) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:38:43 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? Message-ID: <20091121003843.55561.qmail@mxw1911.dulles19-verio.com> Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? Will a model rocket launch pad be availible? Thanks, Jeff P.S. I accidentally deleted the original posting ... sorry From rnech at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 18:59:37 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:59:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <20091121003843.55561.qmail@mxw1911.dulles19-verio.com> Message-ID: <789833.47420.qm@web111403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The un-organized, unhosted, drop-in Turkey Shoot launch at 60 Acres will be held on Sunday, 22NOV09 starting about 10 in the AM. I've invited Dave Randall to this launch who plans on bringing his GSE. Robert --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jeff Mobley wrote: > From: Jeff Mobley > Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 4:38 PM > Is 60 acres launch still on for > tomorrow? > > Will a model rocket launch pad be availible? > > Thanks, > Jeff > > P.S. I accidentally deleted the original posting ... sorry > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > ? > From IBELCHLOUD at aol.com Fri Nov 20 19:15:39 2009 From: IBELCHLOUD at aol.com (IBELCHLOUD at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:15:39 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Message-ID: To add to what Marty said about straight tip to tip working, smear a layer of high temp epoxy over the leading edge to seal it. A rocketeer in Texas named Jim Jarvis uses this method on his minimum diameter birds and it appears to work quite well. At least the fins stay on even though lately the rest of the airframe hasn't fared so well! Hope that helps some, Lou If you haven't check Tony A's website give it a look. Good start for doing min-dia stuff while economizing as much space as possible. Think 2" allocated for drogue harness! Address is www.wimpyrockets.com From rnech at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 19:27:24 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:27:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <9E4BB0C705DE4930A456C839704B5E8C@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <573283.89294.qm@web111415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thanks Rob for that kind write up of the Turkey Shoot launch no particular organized individual is attending except Dave Randall and anyone else who happens to be in the neighborhood and just happens to have a rocket in their car or truck and wants to just drop-in for a flight or three. Next month will be the one year anniversary of these 60 Acres launches. What was the name given that one? Robert --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Krausert wrote: > From: Robert Krausert > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? > To: "Robert Nech" > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:05 PM > http://rocketsnw.com/?p=1592 > > Yes, I have your... I mean no one's event posted. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Nech" > To: "NW Rocketry" > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:59 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for > tomorrow? > > > The un-organized, unhosted, drop-in Turkey Shoot launch at > 60 Acres will be > held on Sunday, 22NOV09 starting about 10 in the AM. > > I've invited Dave Randall to this launch who plans on > bringing his GSE. > > Robert > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jeff Mobley > wrote: > > > From: Jeff Mobley > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for > tomorrow? > > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 4:38 PM > > Is 60 acres launch still on for > > tomorrow? > > > > Will a model rocket launch pad be availible? > > > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > P.S. I accidentally deleted the original posting ... > sorry > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 19:34:02 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:34:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? References: <573283.89294.qm@web111415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Did you launch there in December last year? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Nech" To: "NW Rocketry" Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? > Thanks Rob for that kind write up of the Turkey Shoot launch no particular > organized individual is attending except Dave Randall and anyone else who > happens to be in the neighborhood and just happens to have a rocket in > their car or truck and wants to just drop-in for a flight or three. > > Next month will be the one year anniversary of these 60 Acres launches. > What was the name given that one? > > Robert > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Krausert wrote: >> From: Robert Krausert >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? >> To: "Robert Nech" >> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:05 PM >> http://rocketsnw.com/?p=1592 >> >> Yes, I have your... I mean no one's event posted. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert Nech" >> To: "NW Rocketry" >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for >> tomorrow? >> >> >> The un-organized, unhosted, drop-in Turkey Shoot launch at >> 60 Acres will be >> held on Sunday, 22NOV09 starting about 10 in the AM. >> >> I've invited Dave Randall to this launch who plans on >> bringing his GSE. >> >> Robert >> >> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jeff Mobley >> wrote: >> >> > From: Jeff Mobley >> > Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for >> tomorrow? >> > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 4:38 PM >> > Is 60 acres launch still on for >> > tomorrow? >> > >> > Will a model rocket launch pad be availible? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Jeff >> > >> > P.S. I accidentally deleted the original posting ... >> sorry >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From rnech at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 19:57:18 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:57:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <612359.45705.qm@web111410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yes, sir. We started the launches last December. I think the name was Frost and Fire or something like that. Dave Randall will remember. Robert --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Krausert wrote: > From: Robert Krausert > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? > To: "Robert Nech" , "NW Rocketry" > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:34 PM > Did you launch there in December last > year? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Nech" > To: "NW Rocketry" > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:27 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for > tomorrow? > > > > Thanks Rob for that kind write up of the Turkey Shoot > launch no particular > > organized individual is attending except Dave Randall > and anyone else who > > happens to be in the neighborhood and just happens to > have a rocket in > > their car or truck and wants to just drop-in for a > flight or three. > > > > Next month will be the one year anniversary of these > 60 Acres launches. > > What was the name given that one? > > > > Robert > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Krausert > wrote: > >> From: Robert Krausert > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still > on for tomorrow? > >> To: "Robert Nech" > >> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:05 PM > >> http://rocketsnw.com/?p=1592 > >> > >> Yes, I have your... I mean no one's event posted. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Robert > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Robert Nech" > >> To: "NW Rocketry" > >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:59 PM > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still > on for > >> tomorrow? > >> > >> > >> The un-organized, unhosted, drop-in Turkey Shoot > launch at > >> 60 Acres will be > >> held on Sunday, 22NOV09 starting about 10 in the > AM. > >> > >> I've invited Dave Randall to this launch who plans > on > >> bringing his GSE. > >> > >> Robert > >> > >> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jeff Mobley > >> wrote: > >> > >> > From: Jeff Mobley > >> > Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still > on for > >> tomorrow? > >> > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 4:38 PM > >> > Is 60 acres launch still on for > >> > tomorrow? > >> > > >> > Will a model rocket launch pad be availible? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Jeff > >> > > >> > P.S. I accidentally deleted the original > posting ... > >> sorry > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockets mailing list > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > From Simpsonclark at aol.com Fri Nov 20 20:18:18 2009 From: Simpsonclark at aol.com (Simpsonclark at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:18:18 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Message-ID: my sims and flight experience back up m2.3 plus. As built, m 2.8 is possible as the design is under optimum mass for altitude. Flight experience justifies cd of .29 at m .9 with cd = .4 at m 1.1. Expended mass is 800g with the J570W -Robert In a message dated 11/20/2009 3:32:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, arrsales at cox.net writes: That's freakin insane.. Flight details? Mach how fast? :) -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Huber Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:05 PM To: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? My dart this year was a fin can slid over a motor... 4" O motor with a dart on top... http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS856 6.jpg http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS868 0.jpg It is the way to go IMO... have fun! Geoff -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:37 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a little background. All that discussion a while back about minimum diameter rockets got me (and I'm sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. What I am building is what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" that will fly on 38mm motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but sadly not my design. I saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using this design and maybe Carl H. could shed some light on who it was. In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and the motor screws into an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On this aluminum coupler is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the main chute deployment charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go over the aluminum coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward closure. The CF sleeve is the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of the 38mm motor. In this design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, so does the rocket. The motor IS part of the airframe. OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the fins on the fin can and there has been much good discussion on that. One part of that discussion that I think has largely been left out is the one about HEAT at these high velocities. While I am addressing that one on the fins, the question as I see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket sims out to a max velocity of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. Once again my concern is heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for the Beeline transmitter that I want to put in the nose. So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber glassed nose cone take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well enough through it? Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the nosecone altogether and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is detached from the rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? Thanks in advance Cameron _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Mfreptiles at aol.com Fri Nov 20 20:59:09 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:59:09 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Message-ID: Or do away with a drogue entirely. I use single deploy for my 38mm hole shots. Recovery has been amazingly close in with an X-form chute. I build my rockets just as you suggest, with the motor being the airframe and coupler, with a slide on fin can. That seems to be the growing trend for performance junkies and BALLS attendees. Mike F. In a message dated 11/20/2009 7:16:41 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, IBELCHLOUD at aol.com writes: If you haven't check Tony A's website give it a look. Good start for doing min-dia stuff while economizing as much space as possible. Think 2" allocated for drogue harness! Address is www.wimpyrockets.com From dmrandall at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 22:04:06 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:04:06 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <789833.47420.qm@web111403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <20091121003843.55561.qmail@mxw1911.dulles19-verio.com> <789833.47420.qm@web111403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6bc920e40911202204y3ef2bf0tc961c16029a96e7@mail.gmail.com> Note my previous mail about the launch. Due to wind/rain and cold temps, we're starting at 1pm - going to 3pm. GSE will be there, including a rail if you have smaller rockets that need a rail. Dave On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Robert Nech wrote: > The un-organized, unhosted, drop-in Turkey Shoot launch at 60 Acres will be held on Sunday, 22NOV09 starting about 10 in the AM. > > I've invited Dave Randall to this launch who plans on bringing his GSE. > > Robert > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Jeff Mobley wrote: > >> From: Jeff Mobley >> Subject: [RocketsNW] Is 60 acres launch still on for tomorrow? >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 4:38 PM >> Is 60 acres launch still on for >> tomorrow? >> >> Will a model rocket launch pad be availible? >> >> Thanks, >> Jeff >> >> P.S. I accidentally deleted the original posting ... sorry >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 09:30:53 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:30:53 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] HLA2 dual deployment altimeter Message-ID: A while back I was looking for a cheap way to get or build a dual deployment altimeter. I found a few DIY kits and the cheapest with shipping was around $80 and I would have to solder them together and program myself. Then I stumbled onto a website from a guy with Iowa Amateur Rocketry named Scott Fintel. He has designed and put into production a dual deployment altimeter along with many other things. I could not see anywhere to get one so I sent him an email inquiring about it. He quickly replied with a price for the the altimeter soldered, programmed, and shipped for $60. I was pleased as punch and ordered from him using PayPal as a payment method. I got my new DDA within 3 days. I tested for continuity and got nothing. I emailed Scott and and he said he would send another right away and asked me to return the other. I returned it via USPS and got the replacement in 3 days. I tested it for continuity and it worked. Then I tested it to see if the apogee and main would fire. I put X-mas lights in main and apogee, one red and one green, hooked up the battery and put it in a 38mm clear Plexiglas tube. I then cupped one end of the tube tight with my hand to seal it and sucked on the other end. When I felt I had changed the pressure enough to get a reading I held it there for a second and got apogee to light. Then I slowly started to release my cupped hand from the end of the tube and the main light fired. When I had let all the pressure back in it started beeping out an altitude of 1340 feet. Please that I now have a functioning DDA for next may I emails Scott again to let him know the good news. He replied with a congrats and let me know why the first did not work. The program had some how been removed in shipping which is not unheard of. The post office may have a scanning device that emits enough of a charge to wipe it. With the speedy service and easy customer support I am a very please customer and will be getting more of his DDA's. If anyone wishes to take a look at this DDA and any of his other stuff you can go to http://www.thefintels.com/aer/hla2.html If anyone else would like to say anything be it good, bad, or ugly feel free. I can not wait until may to use it. From raystoner99 at comcast.net Sat Nov 21 10:35:13 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:35:13 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] HLA2 dual deployment altimeter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002901ca6ad9$5d99f9e0$18cdeda0$@net> Chris et al, Scott is not in the business of selling altimeters...he did design a good one though and it's been used successfully on a number of flights. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Scott is in the hobby for himself, but very much wants to help others too. He did a short run of altimeters for the group of people that are on his forum, however, there may not be another run. The cool thing though, is that he did this as a completely open project, just like he does ALL of his projects. That means that if someone wanted to duplicate his work, they are free to do so. He ordered the boards through PCB123, I believe the layout is on his website in the correct format. Two boards will cost a lot, 25 boards will reduce the price per board significantly. So if you want to order a bunch of boards with friends, you can realize a pretty decent cost reduction. Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:31 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] HLA2 dual deployment altimeter A while back I was looking for a cheap way to get or build a dual deployment altimeter. I found a few DIY kits and the cheapest with shipping was around $80 and I would have to solder them together and program myself. Then I stumbled onto a website from a guy with Iowa Amateur Rocketry named Scott Fintel. He has designed and put into production a dual deployment altimeter along with many other things. I could not see anywhere to get one so I sent him an email inquiring about it. He quickly replied with a price for the the altimeter soldered, programmed, and shipped for $60. I was pleased as punch and ordered from him using PayPal as a payment method. I got my new DDA within 3 days. I tested for continuity and got nothing. I emailed Scott and and he said he would send another right away and asked me to return the other. I returned it via USPS and got the replacement in 3 days. I tested it for continuity and it worked. Then I tested it to see if the apogee and main would fire. I put X-mas lights in main and apogee, one red and one green, hooked up the battery and put it in a 38mm clear Plexiglas tube. I then cupped one end of the tube tight with my hand to seal it and sucked on the other end. When I felt I had changed the pressure enough to get a reading I held it there for a second and got apogee to light. Then I slowly started to release my cupped hand from the end of the tube and the main light fired. When I had let all the pressure back in it started beeping out an altitude of 1340 feet. Please that I now have a functioning DDA for next may I emails Scott again to let him know the good news. He replied with a congrats and let me know why the first did not work. The program had some how been removed in shipping which is not unheard of. The post office may have a scanning device that emits enough of a charge to wipe it. With the speedy service and easy customer support I am a very please customer and will be getting more of his DDA's. If anyone wishes to take a look at this DDA and any of his other stuff you can go to http://www.thefintels.com/aer/hla2.html If anyone else would like to say anything be it good, bad, or ugly feel free. I can not wait until may to use it. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 11:21:06 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:21:06 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] HLA2 dual deployment altimeter In-Reply-To: <002901ca6ad9$5d99f9e0$18cdeda0$@net> References: <002901ca6ad9$5d99f9e0$18cdeda0$@net> Message-ID: Ray Then it was extremely nice of him to sell me one. I had recently thought about buying a couple more from him so I can set up a redundant system and be able to launch a couple different birds without having to switch the DDA's from one to another. I will have to ask him if about it. Chris Guenther On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:35 AM, W. Raymond Stoner wrote: > Chris et al, > > Scott is not in the business of selling altimeters...he did design a good > one though and it's been used successfully on a number of flights. > > I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Scott is in the hobby for > himself, but very much wants to help others too. He did a short run of > altimeters for the group of people that are on his forum, however, there > may > not be another run. > > The cool thing though, is that he did this as a completely open project, > just like he does ALL of his projects. That means that if someone wanted > to > duplicate his work, they are free to do so. > > He ordered the boards through PCB123, I believe the layout is on his > website > in the correct format. Two boards will cost a lot, 25 boards will reduce > the price per board significantly. So if you want to order a bunch of > boards with friends, you can realize a pretty decent cost reduction. > > Ray > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:31 AM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] HLA2 dual deployment altimeter > > A while back I was looking for a cheap way to get or build a dual > deployment > altimeter. I found a few DIY kits and the cheapest with shipping was > around > $80 and I would have to solder them together and program myself. Then I > stumbled onto a website from a guy with Iowa Amateur Rocketry named Scott > Fintel. He has designed and put into production a dual deployment > altimeter > along with many other things. I could not see anywhere to get one so I > sent > him an email inquiring about it. He quickly replied with a price for the > the altimeter soldered, programmed, and shipped for $60. I was pleased as > punch and ordered from him using PayPal as a payment method. > > I got my new DDA within 3 days. I tested for continuity and got nothing. > I > emailed Scott and and he said he would send another right away and asked me > to return the other. I returned it via USPS and got the replacement in 3 > days. I tested it for continuity and it worked. Then I tested it to see > if > the apogee and main would fire. I put X-mas lights in main and apogee, one > red and one green, hooked up the battery and put it in a 38mm clear > Plexiglas tube. I then cupped one end of the tube tight with my hand to > seal it and sucked on the other end. When I felt I had changed the > pressure > enough to get a reading I held it there for a second and got apogee to > light. Then I slowly started to release my cupped hand from the end of the > tube and the main light fired. When I had let all the pressure back in it > started beeping out an altitude of 1340 feet. > > Please that I now have a functioning DDA for next may I emails Scott again > to let him know the good news. He replied with a congrats and let me know > why the first did not work. The program had some how been removed in > shipping which is not unheard of. The post office may have a scanning > device that emits enough of a charge to wipe it. > > With the speedy service and easy customer support I am a very please > customer and will be getting more of his DDA's. If anyone wishes to take a > look at this DDA and any of his other stuff you can go to > http://www.thefintels.com/aer/hla2.html > > If anyone else would like to say anything be it good, bad, or ugly feel > free. I can not wait until may to use it. > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From raystoner99 at comcast.net Sat Nov 21 12:03:37 2009 From: raystoner99 at comcast.net (W. Raymond Stoner) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:03:37 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] HLA2 dual deployment altimeter In-Reply-To: References: <002901ca6ad9$5d99f9e0$18cdeda0$@net> Message-ID: <003601ca6ae5$b7047c60$250d7520$@net> He's a great guy. Completely open in his development of anything. He share's all, and expects the same from the people on his forum. He really does go above and beyond to help others out. Because he's provided all the info on the altimeter, it's possible, if a group wanted to get together and make a group purchase of his altimeter design, it's possible. He may even be interested in having another run of them. Ray From: Christopher Guenther [mailto:guentherchristopher at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:21 AM To: W. Raymond Stoner Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] HLA2 dual deployment altimeter Ray Then it was extremely nice of him to sell me one. I had recently thought about buying a couple more from him so I can set up a redundant system and be able to launch a couple different birds without having to switch the DDA's from one to another. I will have to ask him if about it. Chris Guenther On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 10:35 AM, W. Raymond Stoner wrote: Chris et al, Scott is not in the business of selling altimeters...he did design a good one though and it's been used successfully on a number of flights. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Scott is in the hobby for himself, but very much wants to help others too. He did a short run of altimeters for the group of people that are on his forum, however, there may not be another run. The cool thing though, is that he did this as a completely open project, just like he does ALL of his projects. That means that if someone wanted to duplicate his work, they are free to do so. He ordered the boards through PCB123, I believe the layout is on his website in the correct format. Two boards will cost a lot, 25 boards will reduce the price per board significantly. So if you want to order a bunch of boards with friends, you can realize a pretty decent cost reduction. Ray -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Guenther Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:31 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] HLA2 dual deployment altimeter A while back I was looking for a cheap way to get or build a dual deployment altimeter. I found a few DIY kits and the cheapest with shipping was around $80 and I would have to solder them together and program myself. Then I stumbled onto a website from a guy with Iowa Amateur Rocketry named Scott Fintel. He has designed and put into production a dual deployment altimeter along with many other things. I could not see anywhere to get one so I sent him an email inquiring about it. He quickly replied with a price for the the altimeter soldered, programmed, and shipped for $60. I was pleased as punch and ordered from him using PayPal as a payment method. I got my new DDA within 3 days. I tested for continuity and got nothing. I emailed Scott and and he said he would send another right away and asked me to return the other. I returned it via USPS and got the replacement in 3 days. I tested it for continuity and it worked. Then I tested it to see if the apogee and main would fire. I put X-mas lights in main and apogee, one red and one green, hooked up the battery and put it in a 38mm clear Plexiglas tube. I then cupped one end of the tube tight with my hand to seal it and sucked on the other end. When I felt I had changed the pressure enough to get a reading I held it there for a second and got apogee to light. Then I slowly started to release my cupped hand from the end of the tube and the main light fired. When I had let all the pressure back in it started beeping out an altitude of 1340 feet. Please that I now have a functioning DDA for next may I emails Scott again to let him know the good news. He replied with a congrats and let me know why the first did not work. The program had some how been removed in shipping which is not unheard of. The post office may have a scanning device that emits enough of a charge to wipe it. With the speedy service and easy customer support I am a very please customer and will be getting more of his DDA's. If anyone wishes to take a look at this DDA and any of his other stuff you can go to http://www.thefintels.com/aer/hla2.html If anyone else would like to say anything be it good, bad, or ugly feel free. I can not wait until may to use it. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 14:50:25 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 14:50:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 Message-ID: The next Oregon Rocketry club meeting will be held at 7:30 pm on December 3rd 2009. Meeting place is the back room of Giovanni's in Beaverton, Oregon. Where: Giovanni's Restuarant 12390 SW Broadway: corner of Broadway and Hall Blvd in downtown Beaverton, Oregon 97005 Agenda: 7:30 : 201 in 2010 Out Reach Challenge [Krausert] 7:35 : Memorial Park Launch @ Wilsonville - November Recap [Packard] 7:40 : Launch Schedule 2010; Brothers, Sheridan, and Wilsonville [Krausert] 7:45 : Financial Update [Moscoe] 7:50 : Election and Ballot Measures 2010 & Renewal, Release , Ballot Mailing [Krausert/Goncher] 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] 8:00 : Rocket Talk [All] I certainly hope you can make the meeting. Take a break from your busy schedule and join us Thursday December 3rd at 7:30pm for some fun and rocket talk. Come early for dinner. Cheers, Robert OregonRocketry President From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 19:46:32 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:46:32 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will there be 2010 membership forms at this meeting? On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > The next Oregon Rocketry club meeting will be held at 7:30 pm on December > 3rd 2009. Meeting place is the back room of Giovanni's in Beaverton, Oregon. > > Where: Giovanni's Restuarant > 12390 SW Broadway: corner of Broadway and Hall Blvd in downtown Beaverton, > Oregon 97005 > > Agenda: > 7:30 : 201 in 2010 Out Reach Challenge [Krausert] > 7:35 : Memorial Park Launch @ Wilsonville - November Recap [Packard] > 7:40 : Launch Schedule 2010; Brothers, Sheridan, and Wilsonville [Krausert] > 7:45 : Financial Update [Moscoe] > 7:50 : Election and Ballot Measures 2010 & Renewal, Release , Ballot > Mailing [Krausert/Goncher] > 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] > 8:00 : Rocket Talk [All] > > I certainly hope you can make the meeting. Take a break from your busy > schedule and join us Thursday December 3rd at 7:30pm for some fun and rocket > talk. Come early for dinner. > > Cheers, > Robert > OregonRocketry President > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From Simpsonclark at aol.com Sat Nov 21 19:58:21 2009 From: Simpsonclark at aol.com (Simpsonclark at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:58:21 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? Message-ID: Subject of thread was J570. When and if a record is sought, the motor will be the best available. -Robert In a message dated 11/20/2009 9:40:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rnech at yahoo.com writes: I'm surprised he isn't using a J420R, AMW J500, KBA J520, KBA J740 or the Cesaroni J1055! Robert --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Simpsonclark at aol.com wrote: > From: Simpsonclark at aol.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? > To: arrsales at cox.net, rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 8:18 PM > my sims and flight experience back up > m2.3 plus. As built, m 2.8 is > possible as the design is under optimum mass for > altitude. Flight experience > justifies cd of .29 at m .9 with cd = .4 at m 1.1. > Expended mass is 800g > with the J570W > -Robert > > > In a message dated 11/20/2009 3:32:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight > Time, > arrsales at cox.net > writes: > > That's freakin insane.. Flight details? Mach how > fast? :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Geoff Huber > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:05 PM > To: Cameron Tinder; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? > > My dart this year was a fin can slid over a motor... > 4" O motor with a > dart on top... > > http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS856 > 6.jpg > > http://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/Gallery/2009-10-BALLS18/Full/_LLS868 > 0.jpg > > It is the way to go IMO... have fun! > > Geoff > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Cameron Tinder > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:37 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Can it take the heat? > > Ok, here is a question for the collective. First a > little background. > All > that discussion a while back about minimum diameter > rockets got me (and > I'm > sure others too) thinkin', designin' and ah buildin'. > What I am building > is > what I am calling a sub-minimum diameter "rocket" > that will fly on 38mm > motors. This design is actually quite ingenious, but > sadly not my > design. I > saw a guy at the September Mansfield launch using > this design and maybe > Carl > H. could shed some light on who it was. > > In this design the "fin can" slips over the motor and > the motor screws > into > an aluminum coupler that is milled out and turned. On > this aluminum > coupler > is the altimeter, 9v battery and will contain the > main chute deployment > charge at the aft end. A carbon fiber sleeve will go > over the aluminum > coupler and will butt up to the Aerotech forward > closure. The CF sleeve > is > the same outside diameter as the outside diameter of > the 38mm motor. In > this > design, as the motor gets "bigger" and gets longer, > so does the rocket. > The > motor IS part of the airframe. > > OK, that's all fine. I get to try my hand at keeping the > fins on the fin > can > and there has been much good discussion on that. One > part of that > discussion > that I think has largely been left out is the one > about HEAT at these > high > velocities. While I am addressing that one on the > fins, the question as > I > see it, has to do with the nose cone. This rocket > sims out to a max > velocity > of almost mach 2.3 on a J570 and mach 2 on a J350. > Once again my concern > is > heat. OK, I can design around this if it were not for > the Beeline > transmitter that I want to put in the nose. > > So it seems to me that the questions become, "Can a fiber > glassed nose > cone > take this kind of heat? Will the Beeline transmit well > enough through > it? > Should I give up the idea of transmitting through the > nosecone > altogether > and be resigned to transmitting only when the nose is > detached from the > rocket? " What are some of your thoughts? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > Cameron > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From carl at mousetrap.com Sat Nov 21 20:52:49 2009 From: carl at mousetrap.com (Carl Hamilton) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:52:49 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? Message-ID: I'm trying to figure out how long the anti-zipper fin can should be for my next project. At this point, I think I that the AeroTech 98/10240 case is the longest I'll want to fly (yes, I know, famous last words). I'm looking for the distance from the forward edge of the thrust ring to the forward end of the forward closure. I checked the AeroTech website and the Rouse-Tech website and found conflicting information. The AT site indicates the distance to be 29.601". If I'm interpreting the Rouse-Tech site correctly, the distance is 30.85" (27.50" + 3.35"). That's over an inch difference between the two. Am I missing something? Are cases from the two companies *that* different? Can anybody explain this difference between the two sources? Better yet, can somebody with an AT or Rouse-Tech 98/10240 case measure this distance and let me know who is right? Thanks. - Carl From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Sat Nov 21 22:06:54 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:06:54 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300349@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Two of my TARC teams requested of me that I get the new 24/60 hardware because there is an off chance they could end up using the new reload that goes in it. Since we have two or three 24/40 hardware sets, I figured I would order one full motor set and one extra casing. The closures should be interchangable, right? WRONG! AT has put a vastly different thread size on their new 24/60 case and monkeyed around with the design of the forward closure. I caught myself as the first swear word started to leak out in front of the students and bit my tongue for a while, but man-o-man was I pissed! Now I have to order a pair of closures separately and pay more for the whole package than if I'd just bought two full motors in the first place... Caveat emptor!!! Y'all been warned. Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sat Nov 21 23:01:49 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:01:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] Uh oh...that sounds ominous! I'm uh, er, ahem, ummm, I'm going to be out of the galaxy that night... +McG+ > The next Oregon Rocketry club meeting will be held at 7:30 pm on December > 3rd 2009. Meeting place is the back room of Giovanni's in Beaverton, > Oregon. > > Where: Giovanni's Restuarant > 12390 SW Broadway: corner of Broadway and Hall Blvd in downtown Beaverton, > Oregon 97005 > > Agenda: > 7:30 : 201 in 2010 Out Reach Challenge [Krausert] > 7:35 : Memorial Park Launch @ Wilsonville - November Recap [Packard] > 7:40 : Launch Schedule 2010; Brothers, Sheridan, and Wilsonville > [Krausert] > 7:45 : Financial Update [Moscoe] > 7:50 : Election and Ballot Measures 2010 & Renewal, Release , Ballot > Mailing [Krausert/Goncher] > 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] > 8:00 : Rocket Talk [All] > > I certainly hope you can make the meeting. Take a break from your busy > schedule and join us Thursday December 3rd at 7:30pm for some fun and > rocket talk. Come early for dinner. > > Cheers, > Robert > OregonRocketry President > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From sealtee at cableone.net Sat Nov 21 23:25:22 2009 From: sealtee at cableone.net (Cameron Tinder) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:25:22 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? Message-ID: <000001ca6b44$f4905bd0$ddb11370$@net> Hey Carl, The case length is 27 - 7/16th long. The Forward enclosure from motor contact to the fore end is 2-1/8th inches for a grand total of 29 - 9/16th inches or 29.562". This is a Dr Rockets case. Hope this helps! Cameron From bradwr at wrightholdings.com Sun Nov 22 06:47:55 2009 From: bradwr at wrightholdings.com (Brad Wright) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:47:55 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The diff in manufactures is the extension of the forward closure. They are different designs. b On 11/21/09 8:52 PM, "Carl Hamilton" wrote: > I'm trying to figure out how long the anti-zipper fin can should be for my > next project. At this point, I think I that the AeroTech 98/10240 case is > the longest I'll want to fly (yes, I know, famous last words). I'm looking > for the distance from the forward edge of the thrust ring to the forward end > of the forward closure. I checked the AeroTech > website h_rms_ext_dim_dwgs/98mm_hp_rms/hp_98-10240.pdf> > and > the Rouse-Tech website and > found conflicting information. The AT site indicates the distance to be > 29.601". If I'm interpreting the Rouse-Tech site correctly, the distance is > 30.85" (27.50" + 3.35"). That's over an inch difference between the two. Am > I missing something? Are cases from the two companies *that* different? > > Can anybody explain this difference between the two sources? Better yet, can > somebody with an AT or Rouse-Tech 98/10240 case measure this distance and > let me know who is right? > > Thanks. > > - Carl > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Sun Nov 22 09:10:46 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:10:46 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300349@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0EA4BB10356F445199A943122CC645C3@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30034A@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> the new 24/60 case is not to be confused with the venerable old high-power style 29/60. AT only introduced the 24/60 in the last year and there's currently only one load for it--the F35W. I looked at AT's 2009-2010 catalog this morning and there's a small line of "fine print" that says that 24/60 parts are not backwards compatible with the 24/40 system. Unfortunately, there was nothing to see of that when I ordered the new cases on Valuerockets.com... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: Robert Krausert [mailto:lawndart.robert at gmail.com] Sent: Sat 11/21/2009 10:41 PM To: Schurke, Peter Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... What do you mean 'new' 24/60 case? Did they change it? I own 6 complete motors. Are they now no good? I start to swear too. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schurke, Peter" To: Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... > Two of my TARC teams requested of me that I get the new 24/60 hardware > because there is an off chance they could end up using the new reload that > goes in it. > > Since we have two or three 24/40 hardware sets, I figured I would order > one full motor set and one extra casing. The closures should be > interchangable, right? > > WRONG! > > AT has put a vastly different thread size on their new 24/60 case and > monkeyed around with the design of the forward closure. > > I caught myself as the first swear word started to leak out in front of > the students and bit my tongue for a while, but man-o-man was I pissed! > Now I have to order a pair of closures separately and pay more for the > whole package than if I'd just bought two full motors in the first > place... > > Caveat emptor!!! Y'all been warned. > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St. > Seattle, WA 98133 > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From jhadv at pacifier.com Sun Nov 22 08:19:49 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:19:49 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 89 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091122081438.00c1ec00@mail.iinet.com> >"Now I have to order a pair of closures separately and pay more for the >whole package than if I'd just bought two full motors in the first place..." If you wait till Tuesday (they are closed Monday) and call them and explain the situation with the threads I bet they give you the equivalent price for the two full motors. They are pretty reasonable about that. Just as an aside I hate it when these vendors do this stuff without notification. You know those HAMR motor retainers from Public Missiles. They did the same thing. Expanded the skirt length by .1 inches and change the relative position of the thrust ring without mentioning it. I don't suppose it would matter in most builds but I have mine set into pre-cast tail-cone assemblies so it made a difference. Fortunately I caught the error before the tail cone was assembled into the rear body tube but it cost me $35.00 for the wasted ring and the cost of the tail-cone. From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sun Nov 22 10:03:20 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:03:20 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] [AD] Happy Holidays from Binder Design! Message-ID: The Binder Design Holiday Special is back! Buy any rocket kit for $99.99 or more and get a free 3.9" Avionics Bay Kit. This is a $35 value! This offer is good from now until January 1, 2010. Happy holidays from Binder Design! (Internet orders only, excludes dealers) _http://binderdesign.com_ (http://binderdesign.com) From steve-c at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 22 10:15:06 2009 From: steve-c at ix.netcom.com (steve-c at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:15:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? Message-ID: <14949097.1258913707153.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> ...I think I that the AeroTech 98/10240 case is the longest I'll want to fly (yes, I know, famous last words)... Hmmm, you must have a life of some sort outside of rocketry or another hobby competing for funding...nothing wrong w/ that. /Steve From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 11:33:40 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:33:40 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... References: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B300349@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> <0EA4BB10356F445199A943122CC645C3@LaptopKrausert> <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30034A@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> Message-ID: <1464AFA97A3E4567AE2857EB09BD93CF@LaptopKrausert> Yep. I was mistaken. The motor hardware I have are the 24/40's. These are such itty bitty motors. Certainly a bummer that the threading of the new 60 is different. The 24/60 is the only case in the entire catalog that has a note about compatibility. Certainly they have different closures for some motors. But the 24/60 is the only one stating not compatable. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schurke, Peter" To: "Robert Krausert" ; Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:10 AM Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... the new 24/60 case is not to be confused with the venerable old high-power style 29/60. AT only introduced the 24/60 in the last year and there's currently only one load for it--the F35W. I looked at AT's 2009-2010 catalog this morning and there's a small line of "fine print" that says that 24/60 parts are not backwards compatible with the 24/40 system. Unfortunately, there was nothing to see of that when I ordered the new cases on Valuerockets.com... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: Robert Krausert [mailto:lawndart.robert at gmail.com] Sent: Sat 11/21/2009 10:41 PM To: Schurke, Peter Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... What do you mean 'new' 24/60 case? Did they change it? I own 6 complete motors. Are they now no good? I start to swear too. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schurke, Peter" To: Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... > Two of my TARC teams requested of me that I get the new 24/60 hardware > because there is an off chance they could end up using the new reload that > goes in it. > > Since we have two or three 24/40 hardware sets, I figured I would order > one full motor set and one extra casing. The closures should be > interchangable, right? > > WRONG! > > AT has put a vastly different thread size on their new 24/60 case and > monkeyed around with the design of the forward closure. > > I caught myself as the first swear word started to leak out in front of > the students and bit my tongue for a while, but man-o-man was I pissed! > Now I have to order a pair of closures separately and pay more for the > whole package than if I'd just bought two full motors in the first > place... > > Caveat emptor!!! Y'all been warned. > > Peter Schurke > Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor > Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy > Ingraham High School > 1819 N 135th St. > Seattle, WA 98133 > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From carl at mousetrap.com Sun Nov 22 12:10:43 2009 From: carl at mousetrap.com (Carl Hamilton) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:10:43 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Brad Wright wrote: > The diff in manufactures is the extension of the forward closure. They are > different designs. > Thanks for the information, Brad. I knew that different designs was a possibility, but assumed that a new design would require all of the reloads to be certified in the new hardware, which seems like a nightmare for AeroTech, Rouse-Tech, and the motor certification committees. For example, the K700 could be certified in the AT case through 20XX, but certified in the RT case through 20YY. Did the reloads get certified for the Rouse-Tech hardware when it came out or was there an exception made for them to skip certification? What are the rules for this? Mr. Lyngdal, can you shed any light on the matter? Thanks. - Carl On 11/21/09 8:52 PM, "Carl Hamilton" wrote: > > > I'm trying to figure out how long the anti-zipper fin can should be for > my > > next project. At this point, I think I that the AeroTech 98/10240 case is > > the longest I'll want to fly (yes, I know, famous last words). I'm > looking > > for the distance from the forward edge of the thrust ring to the forward > end > > of the forward closure. I checked the AeroTech > > website< > http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/aerotec > > h_rms_ext_dim_dwgs/98mm_hp_rms/hp_98-10240.pdf> > > and > > the Rouse-Tech website > and > > found conflicting information. The AT site indicates the distance to be > > 29.601". If I'm interpreting the Rouse-Tech site correctly, the distance > is > > 30.85" (27.50" + 3.35"). That's over an inch difference between the two. > Am > > I missing something? Are cases from the two companies *that* different? > > > > Can anybody explain this difference between the two sources? Better yet, > can > > somebody with an AT or Rouse-Tech 98/10240 case measure this distance and > > let me know who is right? > > > > Thanks. > > > > - Carl > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > From t.j.doll at att.net Sun Nov 22 13:13:52 2009 From: t.j.doll at att.net (t.j.doll at att.net) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:13:52 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] AT 24/60 case made me swear in front of my students... Message-ID: <112220092113.4816.4B09A9900009FA19000012D022218801869B0A02D29B9B0EBF0404010BD206D29B@att.net> > Since we have two or three 24/40 hardware sets, I figured I would order > one full motor set and one extra casing. The closures should be > interchangable, right? > > WRONG! > > AT has put a vastly different thread size on their new 24/60 case and > monkeyed around with the design of the forward closure. Yep, I found out about that the hard way as well. At NARAM 50, a CATO ruined the forward closure on the only 24/40 casing I'd brought along (also completely destroyed a really nice Q-Modeling Bullpup on it's maiden flight). None of the vendors had a closure or even a complete 24/40 casing, so I bought a 24/60 figuring the closure would fit. Wrong.... I was unable to use any of my 24mm reloads for the rest of the event :-( BTW, the 24/60 is intended to work in rockets designed for the 3.75" long Estes E motors. Still need to file down the engine hook forward end though.... Tim From appusher at q.com Sun Nov 22 14:10:41 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:10:41 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: It is my best guess that the inside spec's of the two manufacture's are quite the same... Just the exterior dimensions are a different design with the design of the closures. I have a 98/10240 in stock that I will measure out for you tonight and send you the results. According to Aerotech, all manufacture's of their hardware are interchangeable. That can only be the case if the inside spec's are identical. Bill EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:10:43 -0800 > From: carl at mousetrap.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com; john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Brad Wright wrote: > > > The diff in manufactures is the extension of the forward closure. They are > > different designs. > > > > Thanks for the information, Brad. > > I knew that different designs was a possibility, but assumed that a new > design would require all of the reloads to be certified in the new hardware, > which seems like a nightmare for AeroTech, Rouse-Tech, and the motor > certification committees. For example, the K700 could be certified in the AT > case through 20XX, but certified in the RT case through 20YY. > > Did the reloads get certified for the Rouse-Tech hardware when it came out > or was there an exception made for them to skip certification? What are the > rules for this? Mr. Lyngdal, can you shed any light on the matter? > > Thanks. > > - Carl > > On 11/21/09 8:52 PM, "Carl Hamilton" wrote: > > > > > I'm trying to figure out how long the anti-zipper fin can should be for > > my > > > next project. At this point, I think I that the AeroTech 98/10240 case is > > > the longest I'll want to fly (yes, I know, famous last words). I'm > > looking > > > for the distance from the forward edge of the thrust ring to the forward > > end > > > of the forward closure. I checked the AeroTech > > > website< > > http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/aerotec > > > h_rms_ext_dim_dwgs/98mm_hp_rms/hp_98-10240.pdf> > > > and > > > the Rouse-Tech website > > and > > > found conflicting information. The AT site indicates the distance to be > > > 29.601". If I'm interpreting the Rouse-Tech site correctly, the distance > > is > > > 30.85" (27.50" + 3.35"). That's over an inch difference between the two. > > Am > > > I missing something? Are cases from the two companies *that* different? > > > > > > Can anybody explain this difference between the two sources? Better yet, > > can > > > somebody with an AT or Rouse-Tech 98/10240 case measure this distance and > > > let me know who is right? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > - Carl > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 14:51:27 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:51:27 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? References: , , Message-ID: <0684BB20026343F9997B29B26FDCDB04@LaptopKrausert> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that motor certifications was completed not per hardware specs but more to the thrust specifications. What I mean, is that when a motor is put through a certification. The motor must have a thrust curve matching consistently to the manufacturers claim, + or - by a percentage. That said, I believe hardware differences by closure shape, length, etc are nill. The reason I say that is based on two parts; one when Lyngdal did a certfication explanation during a club meeting. Second, I've never seen a reload claimed as certified for use by hardware X and not hardware Y. If you claim a J350, does the motor perform at 350 thrust as specified? Plus or minus I believe 20% consistently. My guess is hardware casing and closure "certifications" are the responsibility of the manufacturer to meet AT specs. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Munds" To: "Carl Hamilton" ; Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? > > It is my best guess that the inside spec's of the two manufacture's are > quite the same... > > Just the exterior dimensions are a different design with the design of the > closures. > > > > I have a 98/10240 in stock that I will measure out for you tonight and > send you the results. > > According to Aerotech, all manufacture's of their hardware are > interchangeable. That can only be the case if the inside spec's are > identical. > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > Join me > > > >> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:10:43 -0800 >> From: carl at mousetrap.com >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com; john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Brad Wright >> wrote: >> >> > The diff in manufactures is the extension of the forward closure. They >> > are >> > different designs. >> > >> >> Thanks for the information, Brad. >> >> I knew that different designs was a possibility, but assumed that a new >> design would require all of the reloads to be certified in the new >> hardware, >> which seems like a nightmare for AeroTech, Rouse-Tech, and the motor >> certification committees. For example, the K700 could be certified in the >> AT >> case through 20XX, but certified in the RT case through 20YY. >> >> Did the reloads get certified for the Rouse-Tech hardware when it came >> out >> or was there an exception made for them to skip certification? What are >> the >> rules for this? Mr. Lyngdal, can you shed any light on the matter? >> >> Thanks. >> >> - Carl >> >> On 11/21/09 8:52 PM, "Carl Hamilton" wrote: >> > >> > > I'm trying to figure out how long the anti-zipper fin can should be >> > > for >> > my >> > > next project. At this point, I think I that the AeroTech 98/10240 >> > > case is >> > > the longest I'll want to fly (yes, I know, famous last words). I'm >> > looking >> > > for the distance from the forward edge of the thrust ring to the >> > > forward >> > end >> > > of the forward closure. I checked the AeroTech >> > > website< >> > http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/aerotec >> > > h_rms_ext_dim_dwgs/98mm_hp_rms/hp_98-10240.pdf> >> > > and >> > > the Rouse-Tech website >> > > >> > and >> > > found conflicting information. The AT site indicates the distance to >> > > be >> > > 29.601". If I'm interpreting the Rouse-Tech site correctly, the >> > > distance >> > is >> > > 30.85" (27.50" + 3.35"). That's over an inch difference between the >> > > two. >> > Am >> > > I missing something? Are cases from the two companies *that* >> > > different? >> > > >> > > Can anybody explain this difference between the two sources? Better >> > > yet, >> > can >> > > somebody with an AT or Rouse-Tech 98/10240 case measure this distance >> > > and >> > > let me know who is right? >> > > >> > > Thanks. >> > > >> > > - Carl >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Rockets mailing list >> > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 15:08:16 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 15:08:16 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 References: Message-ID: <6CB71A1854544A5FBDBBBA0E0A2F1136@LaptopKrausert> It's ok Ken. You can avoid the warp drive this time. No brawls or cage matches planned. This is that I have a gift for a board member that will help keep me at bay. That's all. Hope you'll join us then. BTW, I realize this is the same night as one of the biggest Civil War football games in Oregon's history. A fight for the Rose Bowl. Attendance might be lite. I understand that as well. For me I'm torn. I'll be there and have to hear what I missed later. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Robert Krausert" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 >> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] > > Uh oh...that sounds ominous! > > I'm uh, er, ahem, ummm, I'm going to be out of the galaxy that night... > > +McG+ > > >> The next Oregon Rocketry club meeting will be held at 7:30 pm on December >> 3rd 2009. Meeting place is the back room of Giovanni's in Beaverton, >> Oregon. >> >> Where: Giovanni's Restuarant >> 12390 SW Broadway: corner of Broadway and Hall Blvd in downtown >> Beaverton, >> Oregon 97005 >> >> Agenda: >> 7:30 : 201 in 2010 Out Reach Challenge [Krausert] >> 7:35 : Memorial Park Launch @ Wilsonville - November Recap [Packard] >> 7:40 : Launch Schedule 2010; Brothers, Sheridan, and Wilsonville >> [Krausert] >> 7:45 : Financial Update [Moscoe] >> 7:50 : Election and Ballot Measures 2010 & Renewal, Release , Ballot >> Mailing [Krausert/Goncher] >> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] >> 8:00 : Rocket Talk [All] >> >> I certainly hope you can make the meeting. Take a break from your busy >> schedule and join us Thursday December 3rd at 7:30pm for some fun and >> rocket talk. Come early for dinner. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> OregonRocketry President >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > From cpovercg at rocketmail.com Sun Nov 22 15:59:31 2009 From: cpovercg at rocketmail.com (Robert Braibish) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 15:59:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 In-Reply-To: <6CB71A1854544A5FBDBBBA0E0A2F1136@LaptopKrausert> References: <6CB71A1854544A5FBDBBBA0E0A2F1136@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <435354.75449.qm@web112914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Aw, c'mon Robert, you can have your cake and eat it too!? I think if you hosted a civil war party at the Krausert estate and invited the whole OROC crew that would be great!? I'll bring some chips.... we'll take care of business on the commercial breaks!? Who else will be there? Braib ________________________________ From: Robert Krausert To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Cc: members at oregonrocketry.org; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 3:08:16 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 It's ok Ken. You can avoid the warp drive this time. No brawls or cage matches planned. This is that I have a gift for a board member that will help keep me at bay. That's all. Hope you'll join us then. BTW, I realize this is the same night as one of the biggest Civil War football games in Oregon's history. A fight for the Rose Bowl. Attendance might be lite. I understand that as well. For me I'm torn. I'll be there and have to hear what I missed later. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Robert Krausert" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 >> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] > > Uh oh...that sounds ominous! > > I'm uh, er, ahem, ummm, I'm going to be out of the galaxy that night... > > +McG+ > > >> The next Oregon Rocketry club meeting will be held at 7:30 pm on December >> 3rd 2009. Meeting place is the back room of Giovanni's in Beaverton, >> Oregon. >> >> Where: Giovanni's Restuarant >> 12390 SW Broadway: corner of Broadway and Hall Blvd in downtown >> Beaverton, >> Oregon 97005 >> >> Agenda: >> 7:30 : 201 in 2010 Out Reach Challenge [Krausert] >> 7:35 : Memorial Park Launch @ Wilsonville - November Recap [Packard] >> 7:40 : Launch Schedule 2010; Brothers, Sheridan, and Wilsonville >> [Krausert] >> 7:45 : Financial Update [Moscoe] >> 7:50 : Election and Ballot Measures 2010 & Renewal, Release , Ballot >> Mailing [Krausert/Goncher] >> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] >> 8:00 : Rocket Talk [All] >> >> I certainly hope you can make the meeting. Take a break from your busy >> schedule and join us Thursday December 3rd at 7:30pm for some fun and >> rocket talk. Come early for dinner. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> OregonRocketry President >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 16:45:28 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:45:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 References: <6CB71A1854544A5FBDBBBA0E0A2F1136@LaptopKrausert> <435354.75449.qm@web112914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5459A07EA1504CDDA499213494F4038C@LaptopKrausert> Oh there's no need to watch the game. The Ducks will win by a landslide. Beavers are only showing up at the game as a curtasy. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Braibish" To: Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 Aw, c'mon Robert, you can have your cake and eat it too! I think if you hosted a civil war party at the Krausert estate and invited the whole OROC crew that would be great! I'll bring some chips.... we'll take care of business on the commercial breaks! Who else will be there? Braib ________________________________ From: Robert Krausert To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Cc: members at oregonrocketry.org; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 3:08:16 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 It's ok Ken. You can avoid the warp drive this time. No brawls or cage matches planned. This is that I have a gift for a board member that will help keep me at bay. That's all. Hope you'll join us then. BTW, I realize this is the same night as one of the biggest Civil War football games in Oregon's history. A fight for the Rose Bowl. Attendance might be lite. I understand that as well. For me I'm torn. I'll be there and have to hear what I missed later. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Robert Krausert" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 >> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] > > Uh oh...that sounds ominous! > > I'm uh, er, ahem, ummm, I'm going to be out of the galaxy that night... > > +McG+ > > >> The next Oregon Rocketry club meeting will be held at 7:30 pm on December >> 3rd 2009. Meeting place is the back room of Giovanni's in Beaverton, >> Oregon. >> >> Where: Giovanni's Restuarant >> 12390 SW Broadway: corner of Broadway and Hall Blvd in downtown >> Beaverton, >> Oregon 97005 >> >> Agenda: >> 7:30 : 201 in 2010 Out Reach Challenge [Krausert] >> 7:35 : Memorial Park Launch @ Wilsonville - November Recap [Packard] >> 7:40 : Launch Schedule 2010; Brothers, Sheridan, and Wilsonville >> [Krausert] >> 7:45 : Financial Update [Moscoe] >> 7:50 : Election and Ballot Measures 2010 & Renewal, Release , Ballot >> Mailing [Krausert/Goncher] >> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] >> 8:00 : Rocket Talk [All] >> >> I certainly hope you can make the meeting. Take a break from your busy >> schedule and join us Thursday December 3rd at 7:30pm for some fun and >> rocket talk. Come early for dinner. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> OregonRocketry President >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From dmrandall at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 17:04:17 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:04:17 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 60 Acres Turkey Shoot Launch Report Message-ID: <6bc920e40911221704n3687b9edgf234adcff96475b6@mail.gmail.com> I sat at the keyboard, ready to scrub the launch about 5 times today... But, the weather charts just kept looking promising. Being a glass-half-full kinda guy, I headed down to 60 Acres at 1pm just in case any other hearty souls made it out. Surprise, surprise, Mark Quinn was there with a truckload (ok, 4) rockets ready to go! There were a few electric r/c planes flying around - we managed to maintain separate airspace throughout the afternoon though. Mark and I chatted about rocketry in the rain for an hour, and by 2:15 the rain had cleared and some blue sky was poking through. Time to setup! I ran back home to grab a G Skidmark and my PML Callisto, only to forget the after closure ring. Drat. By 2:30, Mark got his rockets and pad set up with goal of at least one flight out of each rocket. And, he accomplished it! Mark had four great flights, all recovered on the field, all with successful apogee deployments. By the end of the flying time, around 4pm, the wind had picked up to about 10 knots and temperatures were dropping into the low 40s. The last flight of the day - a Mozzie ended up drifting to the far north edge of the field. Mark said he had only a few feet to spare before it would have been off the field. We packed up under the warmth of evening sunlight bathing us in its glory. Ok, the wind overtook the warmth by a factor of ten, but you get the point. All in all - lightly attended but worth getting the "AP fix" for the month. Attendees: Dave Randall, Josh Randall, Mark Quinn, Doug Boa, Jeff Mobley. Flights: 4 flights total, 3 "D" and one "E" motor. Videos here: Rock-It: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGwGhnVV_yE Quark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyTuB8xxpo Batray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSEY0vj_h84 Mozzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sinnYU8EWQ - Dave From mkquinn at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 17:27:35 2009 From: mkquinn at gmail.com (Mark Quinn) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:27:35 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 60 Acres Turkey Shoot Launch Report In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911221704n3687b9edgf234adcff96475b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bc920e40911221704n3687b9edgf234adcff96475b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5a1085980911221727s15eabc2escae6ef46a3ad433e@mail.gmail.com> Great videos Dave, you are quick! Definitely a fun flying day once the rain let up. 60 Acres is such a great field for flying this class of rockets. Mark On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Dave Randall wrote: > I sat at the keyboard, ready to scrub the launch about 5 times > today... But, the weather charts just kept looking promising. Being a > glass-half-full kinda guy, I headed down to 60 Acres at 1pm just in > case any other hearty souls made it out. Surprise, surprise, Mark > Quinn was there with a truckload (ok, 4) rockets ready to go! There > were a few electric r/c planes flying around - we managed to maintain > separate airspace throughout the afternoon though. > > Mark and I chatted about rocketry in the rain for an hour, and by 2:15 > the rain had cleared and some blue sky was poking through. Time to > setup! I ran back home to grab a G Skidmark and my PML Callisto, only > to forget the after closure ring. Drat. > > By 2:30, Mark got his rockets and pad set up with goal of at least one > flight out of each rocket. And, he accomplished it! Mark had four > great flights, all recovered on the field, all with successful apogee > deployments. By the end of the flying time, around 4pm, the wind had > picked up to about 10 knots and temperatures were dropping into the > low 40s. The last flight of the day - a Mozzie ended up drifting to > the far north edge of the field. Mark said he had only a few feet to > spare before it would have been off the field. We packed up under the > warmth of evening sunlight bathing us in its glory. Ok, the wind > overtook the warmth by a factor of ten, but you get the point. > > All in all - lightly attended but worth getting the "AP fix" for the month. > > Attendees: Dave Randall, Josh Randall, Mark Quinn, Doug Boa, Jeff Mobley. > > Flights: 4 flights total, 3 "D" and one "E" motor. > > Videos here: > Rock-It: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGwGhnVV_yE > Quark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyTuB8xxpo > Batray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSEY0vj_h84 > Mozzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sinnYU8EWQ > > - Dave > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 18:11:36 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:11:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 In-Reply-To: <5459A07EA1504CDDA499213494F4038C@LaptopKrausert> References: <6CB71A1854544A5FBDBBBA0E0A2F1136@LaptopKrausert> <435354.75449.qm@web112914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5459A07EA1504CDDA499213494F4038C@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: Very true! Curtice is the only reason the Beavers are going. GO DUCKS! On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Robert Krausert wrote: > Oh there's no need to watch the game. The Ducks will win by a landslide. > Beavers are only showing up at the game as a curtasy. > > Cheers, > Robert > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Braibish" < > cpovercg at rocketmail.com> > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 > > > Aw, c'mon Robert, you can have your cake and eat it too! I think if you > hosted a civil war party at the Krausert estate and invited the whole OROC > crew that would be great! I'll bring some chips.... we'll take care of > business on the commercial breaks! Who else will be there? > > Braib > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Robert Krausert > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: members at oregonrocketry.org; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 3:08:16 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 > > It's ok Ken. You can avoid the warp drive this time. No brawls or cage > matches planned. This is that I have a gift for a board member that will > help keep me at bay. > > That's all. Hope you'll join us then. > > BTW, I realize this is the same night as one of the biggest Civil War > football games in Oregon's history. A fight for the Rose Bowl. Attendance > might be lite. I understand that as well. For me I'm torn. I'll be there > and > have to hear what I missed later. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "Robert Krausert" > Cc: ; > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:01 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 > > > 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] >>> >> >> Uh oh...that sounds ominous! >> >> I'm uh, er, ahem, ummm, I'm going to be out of the galaxy that night... >> >> +McG+ >> >> >> The next Oregon Rocketry club meeting will be held at 7:30 pm on December >>> 3rd 2009. Meeting place is the back room of Giovanni's in Beaverton, >>> Oregon. >>> >>> Where: Giovanni's Restuarant >>> 12390 SW Broadway: corner of Broadway and Hall Blvd in downtown >>> Beaverton, >>> Oregon 97005 >>> >>> Agenda: >>> 7:30 : 201 in 2010 Out Reach Challenge [Krausert] >>> 7:35 : Memorial Park Launch @ Wilsonville - November Recap [Packard] >>> 7:40 : Launch Schedule 2010; Brothers, Sheridan, and Wilsonville >>> [Krausert] >>> 7:45 : Financial Update [Moscoe] >>> 7:50 : Election and Ballot Measures 2010 & Renewal, Release , Ballot >>> Mailing [Krausert/Goncher] >>> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] >>> 8:00 : Rocket Talk [All] >>> >>> I certainly hope you can make the meeting. Take a break from your busy >>> schedule and join us Thursday December 3rd at 7:30pm for some fun and >>> rocket talk. Come early for dinner. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Robert >>> OregonRocketry President >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From IBELCHLOUD at aol.com Sun Nov 22 19:08:06 2009 From: IBELCHLOUD at aol.com (IBELCHLOUD at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:08:06 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? Message-ID: RouseTech hardware is manufactured under license by AT to to AT's specs. They did the same thing with Dr. Rocket for a while until his normal life took over more of his free time and he stopped producing cases. That is when Tom Rouse took over. All parts are interchangeable. I've seen people using Dr. Rocket aft closure with AT case and RT forward closure. Nothing wrong with that. Loads are certified to hardware that is provided to TMT. That is how CTI gets their 75s and 98s certified in AT hardware. They send some hardware in with the load and it is tested in that configuration for certification. AT doesn't like it but not much they can do besides deny any warranty claim associated with the practice. I have heard rumor that Loki is now producing conversion kits for AMW cases and they will be doing the same thing. Sending in a AMW case with their conversion kit and Loki load and certifying it for use in that way. Meaning you will now be able to fly a Loki M3000 in a AMW 75/7600 case. In the case of a J350, 350 is supposed to be the average impulse +/- 20%, not the total impulse which is like 700ns or so. At least that is how I understand it from what I've picked up on the internet, Lou From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 22 23:14:16 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 23:14:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 In-Reply-To: <6CB71A1854544A5FBDBBBA0E0A2F1136@LaptopKrausert> References: <6CB71A1854544A5FBDBBBA0E0A2F1136@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <439130e2904f3f1236cb6b3c5b01e530.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Ok, now that I know it's safe I'll show up. ;-) Darn, I don't think I have anything orange and black to wear. Have to find something, have to find something... Remember OROCians, this is the last chance to run for the Board this time, or to be present to defend yourself from being drafted! +McG+ > It's ok Ken. You can avoid the warp drive this time. No brawls or cage > matches planned. This is that I have a gift for a board member that will > help keep me at bay. > > That's all. Hope you'll join us then. > > BTW, I realize this is the same night as one of the biggest Civil War > football games in Oregon's history. A fight for the Rose Bowl. Attendance > might be lite. I understand that as well. For me I'm torn. I'll be there > and > have to hear what I missed later. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Robert Krausert" > Cc: ; > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:01 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] OregonRocketry Meeting Agenda December 3rd 2009 > > >>> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] >> >> Uh oh...that sounds ominous! >> >> I'm uh, er, ahem, ummm, I'm going to be out of the galaxy that night... >> >> +McG+ >> >> >>> The next Oregon Rocketry club meeting will be held at 7:30 pm on >>> December >>> 3rd 2009. Meeting place is the back room of Giovanni's in Beaverton, >>> Oregon. >>> >>> Where: Giovanni's Restuarant >>> 12390 SW Broadway: corner of Broadway and Hall Blvd in downtown >>> Beaverton, >>> Oregon 97005 >>> >>> Agenda: >>> 7:30 : 201 in 2010 Out Reach Challenge [Krausert] >>> 7:35 : Memorial Park Launch @ Wilsonville - November Recap [Packard] >>> 7:40 : Launch Schedule 2010; Brothers, Sheridan, and Wilsonville >>> [Krausert] >>> 7:45 : Financial Update [Moscoe] >>> 7:50 : Election and Ballot Measures 2010 & Renewal, Release , Ballot >>> Mailing [Krausert/Goncher] >>> 7:55 : Defend Yourself From the President [Krausert] >>> 8:00 : Rocket Talk [All] >>> >>> I certainly hope you can make the meeting. Take a break from your busy >>> schedule and join us Thursday December 3rd at 7:30pm for some fun and >>> rocket talk. Come early for dinner. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Robert >>> OregonRocketry President >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> > > From carl at mousetrap.com Mon Nov 23 09:25:28 2009 From: carl at mousetrap.com (Carl Hamilton) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:25:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:08 PM, wrote: > RouseTech hardware is manufactured under license by AT to to AT's specs. > They did the same thing with Dr. Rocket for a while until his normal life > took over more of his free time and he stopped producing cases. That is > when Tom Rouse took over. All parts are interchangeable. I've seen people > using Dr. Rocket aft closure with AT case and RT forward closure. Nothing > wrong with that. > Yes, but what details are included in the AT specifications that RT uses? If an RT forward closure isn't the same as an AT forward closure, how does that closure meet the specifications? Loads are certified to hardware that is provided to TMT. That is how CTI > gets their 75s and 98s certified in AT hardware. They send some hardware in > with the load and it is tested in that configuration for certification. AT > doesn't like it but not much they can do besides deny any warranty claim > associated with the practice. I have heard rumor that Loki is now producing > conversion kits for AMW cases and they will be doing the same thing. > Sending in a AMW case with their conversion kit and Loki load and certifying > it for use in that way. Meaning you will now be able to fly a Loki M3000 in > a AMW 75/7600 case. > This begs the question: when are two cases different from a certification standpoint? Obviously, an AT 98mm case is different than a CTI 98mm case. However, is an AT 98mm case with an AT forward closure different than an AT 98mm case with a RT forward closure that has a different design than the AT closure? Why or why not? - Carl From john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com Mon Nov 23 10:39:00 2009 From: john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com (john.w.lyngdal at tektronix.com) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:39:00 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 98/10240 case length and certification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368857C54898D6@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> The short answer is that the AT, Dr. Rocket, and Rouse-Tech hardware are all identical. The methodology used to measure the case length was different and there isn't a specified way to perform this measurement in the regulatory documents. NAR S&T measures the full diameter motor length forward of the thrust ring (if present). The motor certification date is based on the initial test date and hardware, all the other hardware options are dependant on these tests. John -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Carl Hamilton Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 12:11 PM To: RocketsNW; Lyngdal, John W Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Brad Wright wrote: > The diff in manufactures is the extension of the forward closure. They are > different designs. > Thanks for the information, Brad. I knew that different designs was a possibility, but assumed that a new design would require all of the reloads to be certified in the new hardware, which seems like a nightmare for AeroTech, Rouse-Tech, and the motor certification committees. For example, the K700 could be certified in the AT case through 20XX, but certified in the RT case through 20YY. Did the reloads get certified for the Rouse-Tech hardware when it came out or was there an exception made for them to skip certification? What are the rules for this? Mr. Lyngdal, can you shed any light on the matter? Thanks. - Carl On 11/21/09 8:52 PM, "Carl Hamilton" wrote: > > > I'm trying to figure out how long the anti-zipper fin can should be for > my > > next project. At this point, I think I that the AeroTech 98/10240 case is > > the longest I'll want to fly (yes, I know, famous last words). I'm > looking > > for the distance from the forward edge of the thrust ring to the forward > end > > of the forward closure. I checked the AeroTech > > website< > http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/aerotec > > h_rms_ext_dim_dwgs/98mm_hp_rms/hp_98-10240.pdf> > > and > > the Rouse-Tech website > and > > found conflicting information. The AT site indicates the distance to be > > 29.601". If I'm interpreting the Rouse-Tech site correctly, the distance > is > > 30.85" (27.50" + 3.35"). That's over an inch difference between the two. > Am > > I missing something? Are cases from the two companies *that* different? > > > > Can anybody explain this difference between the two sources? Better yet, > can > > somebody with an AT or Rouse-Tech 98/10240 case measure this distance and > > let me know who is right? > > > > Thanks. > > > > - Carl > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From dmrandall at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 10:40:44 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:40:44 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Message-ID: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the "e-match". Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is my method of choice right now). Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... -- - Dave From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 10:49:55 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:49:55 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004d01ca6c6d$c0cbd7a0$426386e0$@net> Here are the links to the dimensional drawings of the cases from the two makers. http://www.rouse-tech.com/images/technical1.png http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/aerotech_rms_ ext_dim_dwgs/98mm_hp_rms/hp_98-10240.pdf Unfortunately, they do not call out the same dimensions on both drawings as John just pointed out. However, they appear to be very similar. RT calls out the case length as 27.50" and I get 27.4" from the AT drawing and my ruler. Aerotech calls out the total motor length as 30.101" (29.601 + 0.500") while Rouse-Tech calls out 31.35" (27.50 + 0.500 + 3.35"). Some of the additional length for the RT hardware may be in the length of the forward closure - I assumed the listed length is for the portion beyond the threads, but their drawing probably includes the threaded portion. My guess is that the critical dimensions are all the same and the differences are in the external design of the forward closure. However, without having them side-by-side to compare it is all speculation. Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Carl Hamilton Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:25 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:08 PM, wrote: > RouseTech hardware is manufactured under license by AT to to AT's specs. > They did the same thing with Dr. Rocket for a while until his normal life > took over more of his free time and he stopped producing cases. That is > when Tom Rouse took over. All parts are interchangeable. I've seen people > using Dr. Rocket aft closure with AT case and RT forward closure. Nothing > wrong with that. > Yes, but what details are included in the AT specifications that RT uses? If an RT forward closure isn't the same as an AT forward closure, how does that closure meet the specifications? Loads are certified to hardware that is provided to TMT. That is how CTI > gets their 75s and 98s certified in AT hardware. They send some hardware in > with the load and it is tested in that configuration for certification. AT > doesn't like it but not much they can do besides deny any warranty claim > associated with the practice. I have heard rumor that Loki is now producing > conversion kits for AMW cases and they will be doing the same thing. > Sending in a AMW case with their conversion kit and Loki load and certifying > it for use in that way. Meaning you will now be able to fly a Loki M3000 in > a AMW 75/7600 case. > This begs the question: when are two cases different from a certification standpoint? Obviously, an AT 98mm case is different than a CTI 98mm case. However, is an AT 98mm case with an AT forward closure different than an AT 98mm case with a RT forward closure that has a different design than the AT closure? Why or why not? - Carl _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From carl at mousetrap.com Mon Nov 23 11:09:46 2009 From: carl at mousetrap.com (Carl Hamilton) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:09:46 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] 98/10240 case length and certification In-Reply-To: <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368857C54898D6@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> References: <1299DB772C141340B34631B5C0F5368857C54898D6@us-bv-m11.global.tektronix.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 10:39 AM, wrote: > The short answer is that the AT, Dr. Rocket, and Rouse-Tech hardware are > all identical. The methodology used to measure the case length was different > and there isn't a specified way to perform this measurement in the > regulatory documents. NAR S&T measures the full diameter motor length > forward of the thrust ring (if present). > > The motor certification date is based on the initial test date and > hardware, all the other hardware options are dependant on these tests. > > John > Thanks for the clarification, John. Bill Munds measured the distance I was looking for on a Rouse-Tech 98/10240 case he had in stock and got 29 5/8", which agrees with the same measurement Cameron Tinder gave me for his Dr. Rocket case and the AeroTech diagram. My suspicion is that the "C" dimension provided in the Rouse-Tech diagram includes the forward closure's threads, which don't contribute the to external length of the motor. I feel much better now. - Carl From appusher at q.com Mon Nov 23 11:18:51 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:18:51 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? In-Reply-To: <004d01ca6c6d$c0cbd7a0$426386e0$@net> References: , , <004d01ca6c6d$c0cbd7a0$426386e0$@net> Message-ID: Marty and All, After a few calls (Tom at RT, Diane at AT), I have some answers for inquiring minds. Diane does confirm that all the hardware is identical. A return call (in the middle of the day) from Tom is forth coming. Marty suggests that the dimensions on the RT site for total length does in fact include the threaded portion of the forward closure. I confirmed by measuring the product in stock. Seems Tom has a minor flaw in his spec sheet. This minor error in measurement is understandable when compiling the data. Easy to miss. The over all design of both manufacturers are the same. Tom just added in the length of the threads is his diagram. I will point out the discrepancy to him when we talk later. Bill at PSP EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net > To: carl at mousetrap.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:49:55 -0800 > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? > > Here are the links to the dimensional drawings of the cases from the two > makers. > http://www.rouse-tech.com/images/technical1.png > > http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/aerotech_rms_ > ext_dim_dwgs/98mm_hp_rms/hp_98-10240.pdf > Unfortunately, they do not call out the same dimensions on both drawings as > John just pointed out. However, they appear to be very similar. RT calls > out the case length as 27.50" and I get 27.4" from the AT drawing and my > ruler. Aerotech calls out the total motor length as 30.101" (29.601 + > 0.500") while Rouse-Tech calls out 31.35" (27.50 + 0.500 + 3.35"). Some of > the additional length for the RT hardware may be in the length of the > forward closure - I assumed the listed length is for the portion beyond the > threads, but their drawing probably includes the threaded portion. My guess > is that the critical dimensions are all the same and the differences are in > the external design of the forward closure. However, without having them > side-by-side to compare it is all speculation. > > Marty > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Carl Hamilton > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:25 AM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] How long is a 98/10240 case, really? > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:08 PM, wrote: > > > RouseTech hardware is manufactured under license by AT to to AT's specs. > > They did the same thing with Dr. Rocket for a while until his normal life > > took over more of his free time and he stopped producing cases. That is > > when Tom Rouse took over. All parts are interchangeable. I've seen > people > > using Dr. Rocket aft closure with AT case and RT forward closure. Nothing > > wrong with that. > > > > Yes, but what details are included in the AT specifications that RT uses? If > an RT forward closure isn't the same as an AT forward closure, how does that > closure meet the specifications? > > Loads are certified to hardware that is provided to TMT. That is how CTI > > gets their 75s and 98s certified in AT hardware. They send some hardware > in > > with the load and it is tested in that configuration for certification. > AT > > doesn't like it but not much they can do besides deny any warranty claim > > associated with the practice. I have heard rumor that Loki is now > producing > > conversion kits for AMW cases and they will be doing the same thing. > > Sending in a AMW case with their conversion kit and Loki load and > certifying > > it for use in that way. Meaning you will now be able to fly a Loki M3000 > in > > a AMW 75/7600 case. > > > > This begs the question: when are two cases different from a certification > standpoint? Obviously, an AT 98mm case is different than a CTI 98mm case. > However, is an AT 98mm case with an AT forward closure different than an AT > 98mm case with a RT forward closure that has a different design than the AT > closure? Why or why not? > > - Carl > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From jhadv at pacifier.com Mon Nov 23 11:58:33 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:58:33 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 93 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091123115759.00c41a38@mail.iinet.com> >why don't other folks use these as a more permanent solution on >electronics bays? In my case size and weight. From tnetcenter at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 14:05:06 2009 From: tnetcenter at gmail.com (Jeff Moore) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:05:06 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 93 References: <5.2.0.9.2.20091123115759.00c41a38@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <92509EEFE98B4CC1BC3BD35E24497546@TNTCENTER> Use what? Jeff Moore BORG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Bogdanich" Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 93 >why don't other folks use these as a more permanent solution on >electronics bays? In my case size and weight. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From michaelward at sprintmail.com Mon Nov 23 14:57:51 2009 From: michaelward at sprintmail.com (Michael Ward) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:57:51 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] [Rockets] OROC Model Launch. Saturday, November 14th, 12-3pm. Memorial Park => RedDevil Message-ID: <1259017071.9532.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi all, Just in case you are interested in some specifics for the Nov. 14th launches of the Red Devil (Estes Big Bertha modified to a 2 stage with payload bay), I've attached links to: * pictures of the rocket: http://www.math2learn.org/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=category&id=3:rocketry&Itemid=61 * PerfectFlite Alt15K/WD altimeter readings http://www.math2learn.org/files/RedDevil/20091114-1-D120C63.txt http://www.math2learn.org/files/RedDevil/20091114-2-D120C65.txt * a spreadsheet of trajectory calculations in Gnumeric & Excel format: http://www.math2learn.org/files/RedDevil/RocketSimulate.gnumeric http://www.math2learn.org/files/RedDevil/RocketSimulate.xls The theoretical calculations (636 ft) are in the ballpark of the altimeter data. I have no idea how accurate the drag coefficient is. In order to estimate the apogee, I plugged in the complete rocket (RedDevil) with a D12, found the conditions at the point where the D12 engine stopped (~35 m/s, 36 m), and then switched over to calculations for the 2nd stage (RedPheonix) with a C6 engine using conditions at the cut-off of the D12 (~35 m/s, 36 m) as initial conditions. The 1st stage has more cross sectional area than in the spreadsheet due to the rubber band mechanisms on the fins. It also had some extra initial resistance due to rubbing on the launch rod (I think I fixed that for the next launch). Let me know if the spreadsheets don't work for you and you really want to get them going. Here are some details: stage 1: ht=8 3/4 in, wt=114g+41g x-sec-area=3.5 in^2 recovery=tumble stage 2: ht=31 in, wt=143g+25g x-sec-area=3.5 in^2 recovery=chute combined: ht=36 1/8 in, wt=257g+66g x-sec-area=3.5 in^2 The calculations (especially for air resistance) are based on: http://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/numeric_methods.pdf http://www.esteseducator.com/Pdf_files/Part_1.pdf (parts 2,3,...) http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-density-volume-d_195.html The engine thrust data is from (click on the engine description): http://www.redarrowhobbies.com/estes_model_rocket_engines.htm I'm planning to soon write an introduction to the calculations: http://www.math2learn.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:rocket-trajectory-calculations&catid=35:applied-elemetary-math&Itemid=58 Enjoy, - Mike From holdencurrency at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 15:53:32 2009 From: holdencurrency at comcast.net (Chris Holden) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:53:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Holden Hobbies Announcements! & Long over due Thank uuuu's---> www.holdenshobbies.com In-Reply-To: <840425202.5624261259020172051.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1581158121.5626351259020412633.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> To the Rocket Community, ???? 1st Off I have?lot of ?thank? UUU...s that are long over due !? 1) Thank You to all the rocket club members that attended the meeting?on September 12th. & Thank you to? Washington Aerospace for having it there. We had a catered /Potluck & it Was a Blast!? Meeting Minutes ---> http://www.washingtonaerospace.org/news0909.php 2)?Special Thanks to Ryan Williams?& His Dad for representing Holdens Hobbies at the October Launch in Mansfield WA. I had a conflicting events on the same weekend & they really stepped up! 3) Thank You Ryan Williams, Dan Work & Others for Helping me move my store..... Yep Last Month? I moved from the main f l oor to the 2nd floor (Same Building) This was not east and they helped Big Time! 4) Thank You to?Carl For donating the 2009 FITZ DVD to the store. It's been played continually and has generated a lot of new interest in the hobby! ???? Now I've Moved,(upstairs) & have added more parts for scratch Builders. This includes Nose Cones, Fin Cans, Altimeter Bays, (on Back Order) Blue Tube & More.??My Blue Tube 2.0 Order should Arrive by December 16th in time for Christmas. Blue tube 1.0 is now 10% off (This does Not Include Couplers).?I'll be ordering more kits soon so if their is any you'd like please call me & I'll ad it to the order.? ???? Speaking of Christmas,... I'll be having a Christmas party?at my store on December 19th. White elephant Gift Exchange, Project contest, Door Prises,?Food....., More to follow. PLEASE MARK YOUR CALANDER! Best Regards, Chris Holden www.holdenshobbies.com 253-961-3095 From robert.krausert at intel.com Mon Nov 23 16:07:18 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:07:18 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Hi Rick, Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. Cheers, Robert From dmobley at rocketryplanet.com Mon Nov 23 16:37:30 2009 From: dmobley at rocketryplanet.com (Darrell D. Mobley) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:37:30 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine In-Reply-To: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <007c01ca6c9e$4f4e3b00$edeab100$@com> Nadine announced its release in August. http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > Hi Rick, > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. > Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From clappfamily at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 20:05:59 2009 From: clappfamily at comcast.net (ClappFamily) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:05:59 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <007c01ca6c9e$4f4e3b00$edeab100$@com> Message-ID: <0BAD89521BF64C9CB7B16C01CA353E32@D8M6PR71> I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > Nadine announced its release in August. > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM >> To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> Hi Rick, >> Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you >> planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. >> Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 20:32:45 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:32:45 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><007c01ca6c9e$4f4e3b00$edeab100$@com> <0BAD89521BF64C9CB7B16C01CA353E32@D8M6PR71> Message-ID: <93658CE36A434806816AA6AF4AA0B846@LaptopKrausert> No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to English translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets interpretted as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > >> Nadine announced its release in August. >> >> http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert >>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM >>> To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >>> >>> Hi Rick, >>> Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you >>> planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. >>> Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Robert >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 20:37:48 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:37:48 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Message-ID: Fixed, oh my fixed. No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll come home and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to English translation between husband and wife. The word "by" always gets interpretted as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. There are many rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL Cheers, Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ClappFamily" > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > >> I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. >> >> Rick >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Darrell D. Mobley" >> To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; >> >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> >>> Nadine announced its release in August. >>> >>> http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert >>>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM >>>> To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >>>> >>>> Hi Rick, >>>> Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you >>>> planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. >>>> Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Robert >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > From clappfamily at comcast.net Mon Nov 23 20:48:37 2009 From: clappfamily at comcast.net (ClappFamily) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:48:37 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com><007c01ca6c9e$4f4e3b00$edeab100$@com> <0BAD89521BF64C9CB7B16C01CA353E32@D8M6PR71> <93658CE36A434806816AA6AF4AA0B846@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <0E23D7D7019D4A29A2A9E1EC713791A3@D8M6PR71> :-) If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll > come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I > hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to > English translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets > interpretted as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as > vertical, thrust, slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while > discussing it. > > There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ClappFamily" > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > >> I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. >> >> Rick >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Darrell D. Mobley" >> To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; >> >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> >>> Nadine announced its release in August. >>> >>> http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>>> On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert >>>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM >>>> To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >>>> >>>> Hi Rick, >>>> Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you >>>> planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. >>>> Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Robert >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 21:00:53 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:00:53 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine In-Reply-To: <0E23D7D7019D4A29A2A9E1EC713791A3@D8M6PR71> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <007c01ca6c9e$4f4e3b00$edeab100$@com> <0BAD89521BF64C9CB7B16C01CA353E32@D8M6PR71> <93658CE36A434806816AA6AF4AA0B846@LaptopKrausert> <0E23D7D7019D4A29A2A9E1EC713791A3@D8M6PR71> Message-ID: I would like a calendar if I can get one. Chris Guenther On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily wrote: > :-) > > If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" < > lawndart.robert at gmail.com> > To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" < > dmobley at rocketryplanet.com>; "'Krausert, Robert'" < > robert.krausert at intel.com>; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll >> come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I hung >> up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to English >> translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets interpretted >> as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, >> slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. >> >> There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > > >> To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, >> Robert'" ; >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> >> I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. >>> >>> Rick >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" < >>> dmobley at rocketryplanet.com> >>> To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; < >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com> >>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >>> >>> >>> Nadine announced its release in August. >>>> >>>> http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto: >>>>> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>>>> On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM >>>>> To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>>> Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >>>>> >>>>> Hi Rick, >>>>> Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you >>>>> planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. >>>>> Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Robert >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Rockets mailing list >>>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 21:12:51 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:12:51 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <007c01ca6c9e$4f4e3b00$edeab100$@com> <0BAD89521BF64C9CB7B16C01CA353E32@D8M6PR71> <93658CE36A434806816AA6AF4AA0B846@LaptopKrausert> <0E23D7D7019D4A29A2A9E1EC713791A3@D8M6PR71> Message-ID: <3DDBB5A844494728BF50D8712E1BD2F9@LaptopKrausert> Thanks Rick. I think I'll call it everyone's on there own for the OrOC meeting. Unless local groups want to team up. That's not my call. But as for the December meeting, that is what I was curious about. No worries on being busy. We'll likely not hold a January meeting. Normally not. So the next next meeting would be February. I'll place an order tomorrow. Greg, Adrian, Fred, George I'd be happy to order yours as well. Let me know, I've gotcha covered. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Guenther To: ClappFamily Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; Rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I would like a calendar if I can get one. Chris Guenther On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily wrote: :-) If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to English translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets interpretted as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Nadine announced its release in August. http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Hi Rick, Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. Cheers, Robert _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 21:15:11 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:15:11 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <007c01ca6c9e$4f4e3b00$edeab100$@com> <0BAD89521BF64C9CB7B16C01CA353E32@D8M6PR71> <93658CE36A434806816AA6AF4AA0B846@LaptopKrausert> <0E23D7D7019D4A29A2A9E1EC713791A3@D8M6PR71> Message-ID: <016CC5E313D24BEFBEAA4A8A024C6AF4@LaptopKrausert> Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Guenther To: ClappFamily Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; Rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I would like a calendar if I can get one. Chris Guenther On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily wrote: :-) If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to English translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets interpretted as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Nadine announced its release in August. http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Hi Rick, Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. Cheers, Robert _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Mfreptiles at aol.com Mon Nov 23 21:49:24 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:49:24 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Message-ID: OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) Mike F. In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Guenther To: ClappFamily Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; Rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I would like a calendar if I can get one. Chris Guenther On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily wrote: :-) If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to English translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets interpretted as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Nadine announced its release in August. http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine Hi Rick, Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. Cheers, Robert _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 21:53:35 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:53:35 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine References: Message-ID: <9D8D317A15EC495AA71EE9FE39E6FEB0@LaptopKrausert> Any day of the week. Rick, I'd buy them each year. Especially with the 2009 version with that 5181mm 38mm baby O launch for the cover. Serious, I'd buy one. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Guenther > To: ClappFamily > Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > I would like a calendar if I can get one. > > Chris Guenther > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily > wrote: > > :-) > > If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" > ; "'Krausert, Robert'" > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll > come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I > hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to > English > translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets > interpretted > as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, > thrust, > slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. > > There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, > Robert'" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > Nadine announced its release in August. > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > Hi Rick, > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. > Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 22:10:51 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:10:51 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Class on how to upload and publish to the NWR gallery Message-ID: Hello. I will be holding a class at 12:00 noon on Saturday November 28th. If you you'd like to learn how to upload images to the new NWR site and get them available, please join me. This will be held using a bridge I control. Therefore I can only take the first 25 requests. If you're interested, let me know. I'll send you an invite. Cheers, Robert From tnetcenter at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 22:47:47 2009 From: tnetcenter at gmail.com (Jeff Moore) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:47:47 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Class on how to upload and publish to the NWR gallery References: Message-ID: You have to take a class??? This is an improvement how??? Jeff Moore ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" Hello. I will be holding a class at 12:00 noon on Saturday November 28th. If you you'd like to learn how to upload images to the new NWR site and get them available, please join me. This will be held using a bridge I control. Therefore I can only take the first 25 requests. If you're interested, let me know. I'll send you an invite. From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 23 22:56:02 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:56:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine In-Reply-To: <3DDBB5A844494728BF50D8712E1BD2F9@LaptopKrausert> References: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641D2D6@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> <007c01ca6c9e$4f4e3b00$edeab100$@com> <0BAD89521BF64C9CB7B16C01CA353E32@D8M6PR71> <93658CE36A434806816AA6AF4AA0B846@LaptopKrausert> <0E23D7D7019D4A29A2A9E1EC713791A3@D8M6PR71> <3DDBB5A844494728BF50D8712E1BD2F9@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: OROC used to hold January meetings. But people kept not showing up because of lame excuses like: 1. The roads are a sheet of ice. 2. The roads are covered in snow. 3. The dog ate my rocket I was going to bring. 4. I'm still hung over from New year's. 5. The dog is still hung over from New Year's. 6. The dog is still at the vet's from eating my rocket after it got drunk on New Year's slurping up spilled beer. 7. I blew up my house with fireworks on New Year's Eve. 8. I blew up myself with fireworks on New Year's Eve. 9. I blew up my neighbor's house on New Year's Eve with fireworks and the police are still looking for me. 10. The roads are covered with snow on top of ice and I'm still too hung over to drive and it doesn't matter because the dog is at the vet's from eating the rocket I was going to bring to the meeting after it drank half the beer and while I was chasing the drunk dog around with my rocket in its mouth I accidentally stepped on the box of strike-anywhere matches next to the fireworks I was going to set off at midnight on New Year's and accidentally blew up both my house and the neighbor's house so now the cops are after me and my pants are still smoldering. Hmmm. Yeah, it was probably a good move to forget about trying to have a meeting the first Thursday in January. +McG+ > Thanks Rick. I think I'll call it everyone's on there own for the OrOC > meeting. Unless local groups want to team up. That's not my call. But as > for the December meeting, that is what I was curious about. No worries on > being busy. We'll likely not hold a January meeting. Normally not. So the > next next meeting would be February. > > I'll place an order tomorrow. Greg, Adrian, Fred, George I'd be happy to > order yours as well. Let me know, I've gotcha covered. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Guenther > To: ClappFamily > Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > I would like a calendar if I can get one. > > Chris Guenther > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily > wrote: > > :-) > > If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" > ; "'Krausert, Robert'" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. > I'll come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get > to say "I hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in > English to English translation between husband and wide. The word > "by" always gets interpretted as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid > rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, slow, fast, long, short, > wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. > > There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, > Robert'" ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by > Nadine > > > > Nadine announced its release in August. > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by > Nadine > > Hi Rick, > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? > Are you > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me > for one. > Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 23:00:47 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:00:47 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Class on how to upload and publish to the NWRgallery References: Message-ID: We are using WordPress. Easy to use. But I'm offering it because it's new. This was created not for the web team. It was created for all in the pacific northwest. Please not think for second we are out to make our own marks. We created based on an idea to promote the knowledge of the NWR groups. Some are still "unsure" how. I'm creating a video. But in the mean time I'd be happy to walk folks through the steps. It's open and waiting for use. BTW, at 25 peolple for 60 minutes, that's a $375 bill to me. Hope you don't think I feel it's uninportant. Cheers, Robert BTW, I think OROC should switch to the same format. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Moore" To: Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Class on how to upload and publish to the NWRgallery > You have to take a class??? This is an improvement how??? > > Jeff Moore > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > > > Hello. > I will be holding a class at 12:00 noon on Saturday November 28th. If you > you'd like to learn how to upload images to the new NWR site and get them > available, please join me. This will be held using a bridge I control. > Therefore I can only take the first 25 requests. If you're interested, let > me know. I'll send you an invite. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From mrrominwa at yahoo.com Mon Nov 23 23:06:10 2009 From: mrrominwa at yahoo.com (dave woodard) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:06:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Class on how to upload and publish to the NWRgallery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4468.19737.qm@web53102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> no way were protected from torture now Dave --- On Mon, 11/23/09, Robert Krausert wrote: From: Robert Krausert Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Class on how to upload and publish to the NWRgallery To: "Jeff Moore" , rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 11:00 PM We are using WordPress. Easy to use. But I'm offering it because it's new. This was created not for the web team. It was created for all in the pacific northwest. Please not think for second we are out to make our own marks. We created based on an idea to promote the knowledge of the NWR groups. Some are still "unsure" how. I'm creating a video. But in the mean time I'd be happy to walk folks through the steps. It's open and waiting for use. BTW, at 25 peolple for 60 minutes, that's a $375 bill to me. Hope you don't think I feel it's uninportant. Cheers, Robert BTW, I think OROC should switch to the same format. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Moore" To: Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Class on how to upload and publish to the NWRgallery > You have to take a class???? This is an improvement how??? > > Jeff Moore > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > > > Hello. > I will be holding a class at 12:00 noon on Saturday November 28th. If you > you'd like to learn how to upload images to the new NWR site and get them > available, please join me. This will be held using a bridge I control. > Therefore I can only take the first 25 requests. If you're interested, let > me know. I'll send you an invite. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From george at rachors.com Tue Nov 24 08:38:53 2009 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:38:53 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd buy that one too! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, OR http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Nov 23, 2009, at 9:49 PM, Mfreptiles at aol.com wrote: > OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Guenther > To: ClappFamily > Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > I would like a calendar if I can get one. > > Chris Guenther > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily > wrote: > > :-) > > If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" > ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll > come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I > hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to English > translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets interpretted > as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, > slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. > > There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, Robert'" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > Nadine announced its release in August. > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > Hi Rick, > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. > Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From adrian.l.carbine at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:24:22 2009 From: adrian.l.carbine at gmail.com (Adrian L Carbine) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:24:22 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should do it, Rick! I would buy at least one. Probably more like a half-dozen, to give to friends. --- Adrian On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, wrote: > OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Guenther > To: ClappFamily > Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > I would like a calendar if I can get one. > > Chris Guenther > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily > wrote: > > :-) > > If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" > ; "'Krausert, Robert'" < > robert.krausert at intel.com>; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll > come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I > hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to > English > translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets > interpretted > as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, > slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. > > There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, > Robert'" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > Nadine announced its release in August. > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > ] > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > Hi Rick, > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. > Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From clappfamily at comcast.net Tue Nov 24 09:34:03 2009 From: clappfamily at comcast.net (clappfamily at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:34:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <102938699.6918251259084043732.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I know Vern Knowles does a calendar.? I don't know if he did one this year.? I really don't want to impact any of his sales.? If he's not doing it anymore then I might look at doing one next year. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian L Carbine" To: Mfreptiles at aol.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:24:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine You should do it, Rick! I would buy at least one. Probably more like a half-dozen, to give to friends. --- Adrian On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, wrote: > OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > ?lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > Chris ?they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Guenther > To: ClappFamily > Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, ?Robert ; > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 ?PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by ?Nadine > > > I would like a calendar if I can get ?one. > > Chris Guenther > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at ?8:48 PM, ClappFamily > wrote: > > :-) > > If someone in the club puts together an order ?I would like to get one. > > Rick > ----- ?Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > To: "ClappFamily" ?; "Darrell D. Mobley" > ; "'Krausert, Robert'" ?< > robert.krausert at intel.com>; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > Subject: ?Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by ?Nadine > > > > No worries. I just get a kick each ?year because my wife forgets her. I'll > come and she asks about my day at work. ?And once a year I get to say "I > hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." ?Something in English to > English > translation between husband and wide. The word ?"by" always gets > interpretted > as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms ?such as vertical, thrust, > slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc ?while discussing it. > > There are msny rocketry ?terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original ?Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; ?"'Krausert, > Robert'" > ; ? > Sent: Monday, November ?23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick ?Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I've ?been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: ?"Darrell D. Mobley" > > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, ?November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: ?[RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > Nadine announced its release in ?August. > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ?[mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > ] > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by ?Nadine > > Hi Rick, > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine ?are availavle yet? Are you > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for ?one. > Might be too late for the ?OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing ?list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ?? From absworld at cet.com Tue Nov 24 12:15:25 2009 From: absworld at cet.com (Bob & Ann Yanecek) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:15:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine In-Reply-To: <102938699.6918251259084043732.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <102938699.6918251259084043732.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <003301ca6d42$dd77de50$98679af0$@com> I believe Vern did a calendar one year only? Nadine's calendars have historically been fraught with errors but also the only rocket related calendar that I've come across recently. I too would vote for a NW version!! Bob Yanecek -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of clappfamily at comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:34 AM To: Adrian L Carbine Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I know Vern Knowles does a calendar. I don't know if he did one this year. I really don't want to impact any of his sales. If he's not doing it anymore then I might look at doing one next year. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian L Carbine" To: Mfreptiles at aol.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:24:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine You should do it, Rick! I would buy at least one. Probably more like a half-dozen, to give to friends. --- Adrian On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, wrote: > OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Guenther > To: ClappFamily > Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > I would like a calendar if I can get one. > > Chris Guenther > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily > wrote: > > :-) > > If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" > ; "'Krausert, Robert'" < > robert.krausert at intel.com>; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll > come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I > hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to > English > translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets > interpretted > as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, > slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. > > There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, > Robert'" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > Nadine announced its release in August. > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > ] > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > Hi Rick, > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. > Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kent.newman at comcast.net Tue Nov 24 12:58:14 2009 From: kent.newman at comcast.net (Kent Newman) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:14 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Changed to NW Calendar In-Reply-To: <003301ca6d42$dd77de50$98679af0$@com> References: <102938699.6918251259084043732.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <003301ca6d42$dd77de50$98679af0$@com> Message-ID: <000901ca6d48$d76f7800$864e6800$@newman@comcast.net> I agree with Bob - let's get a NW calendar together. I'd be happy to help. Kent -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Bob & Ann Yanecek Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:15 PM To: clappfamily at comcast.net Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I believe Vern did a calendar one year only? Nadine's calendars have historically been fraught with errors but also the only rocket related calendar that I've come across recently. I too would vote for a NW version!! Bob Yanecek -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of clappfamily at comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:34 AM To: Adrian L Carbine Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine I know Vern Knowles does a calendar. I don't know if he did one this year. I really don't want to impact any of his sales. If he's not doing it anymore then I might look at doing one next year. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian L Carbine" To: Mfreptiles at aol.com Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:24:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine You should do it, Rick! I would buy at least one. Probably more like a half-dozen, to give to friends. --- Adrian On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, wrote: > OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Guenther > To: ClappFamily > Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > I would like a calendar if I can get one. > > Chris Guenther > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily > wrote: > > :-) > > If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" > ; "'Krausert, Robert'" < > robert.krausert at intel.com>; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll > come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I > hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to > English > translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets > interpretted > as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, > slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. > > There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, > Robert'" > ; > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > Rick > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > Nadine announced its release in August. > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > ] > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > Hi Rick, > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. > Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > Cheers, > Robert > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From greg at blastzone.com Tue Nov 24 12:58:02 2009 From: greg at blastzone.com (Greg Deputy) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine In-Reply-To: <003301ca6d42$dd77de50$98679af0$@com> References: <102938699.6918251259084043732.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <003301ca6d42$dd77de50$98679af0$@com> Message-ID: <022f01ca6d48$d0183240$704896c0$@com> Her calendars have had errors? I've never noticed, I just look at the pictures... > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of Bob & Ann Yanecek > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:15 PM > To: clappfamily at comcast.net > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > I believe Vern did a calendar one year only? > > Nadine's calendars have historically been fraught with errors but also the > only rocket related calendar that I've come across recently. > > I too would vote for a NW version!! > > Bob Yanecek > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On > Behalf Of clappfamily at comcast.net > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:34 AM > To: Adrian L Carbine > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I know Vern Knowles does a calendar. I don't know if he did one this year. I > really don't want to impact any of his sales. If he's not doing it anymore > then I might look at doing one next year. > > > > Rick > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian L Carbine" > To: Mfreptiles at aol.com > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:24:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > You should do it, Rick! I would buy at least one. Probably more like a > half-dozen, to give to friends. > --- Adrian > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, wrote: > > > OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) > > > > Mike F. > > > > > > In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > > > Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ > > > > Cheers, > > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Christopher Guenther > > To: ClappFamily > > Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > > > I would like a calendar if I can get one. > > > > Chris Guenther > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily > > wrote: > > > > :-) > > > > If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get one. > > > > Rick > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" > > > > To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" > > ; "'Krausert, Robert'" < > > robert.krausert at intel.com>; > > > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > > > > > No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets her. I'll > > come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to say "I > > hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to > > English > > translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets > > interpretted > > as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, thrust, > > slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while discussing it. > > > > There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL > > > > Cheers, > > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" > > > > To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, > > Robert'" > > ; > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > > > > > I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. > > > > Rick > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > > > > To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; > > > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > > > > > Nadine announced its release in August. > > > > http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > ] > > On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM > > To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > Hi Rick, > > Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you > > planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for one. > > Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. > > > > Cheers, > > Robert > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From rockets at sunrivernaturecenter.org Tue Nov 24 15:31:25 2009 From: rockets at sunrivernaturecenter.org (robert grossfeld) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:31:25 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Changed to NW Calendar In-Reply-To: <000901ca6d48$d76f7800$864e6800$@newman@comcast.net> References: <102938699.6918251259084043732.JavaMail.root@sz0014a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <003301ca6d42$dd77de50$98679af0$@com> <000901ca6d48$d76f7800$864e6800$@newman@comcast.net> Message-ID: I bet I can find a sponsor.............. Bob Grossfeld- Observatory Manager Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory POB 3533, Sunriver, OR. 97707 Ph. 541-598-4406 Fax 541-593-5207 Inspire present and future generations to cherish and understand our natural world. On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:58 PM, Kent Newman wrote: > I agree with Bob - let's get a NW calendar together. > > I'd be happy to help. > > Kent > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets- > bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Bob & Ann Yanecek > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:15 PM > To: clappfamily at comcast.net > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > I believe Vern did a calendar one year only? > > Nadine's calendars have historically been fraught with errors but > also the > only rocket related calendar that I've come across recently. > > I too would vote for a NW version!! > > Bob Yanecek > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets- > bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of clappfamily at comcast.net > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:34 AM > To: Adrian L Carbine > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > > > I know Vern Knowles does a calendar. I don't know if he did one > this year. > I really don't want to impact any of his sales. If he's not doing it > anymore then I might look at doing one next year. > > > > Rick > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian L Carbine" > To: Mfreptiles at aol.com > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:24:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > Pacific > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine > > You should do it, Rick! I would buy at least one. Probably more like a > half-dozen, to give to friends. > --- Adrian > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, wrote: > >> OROC should do a local calendar with photos by Rick. :) >> >> Mike F. >> >> >> In a message dated 11/23/2009 9:15:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >> >> Chris they are at http://www.photosbynadine.com/ >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Christopher Guenther >> To: ClappFamily >> Cc: Robert Krausert ; Darrell D. Mobley ; Krausert, Robert ; >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> >> I would like a calendar if I can get one. >> >> Chris Guenther >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM, ClappFamily >> >> wrote: >> >> :-) >> >> If someone in the club puts together an order I would like to get >> one. >> >> Rick >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" >> >> To: "ClappFamily" ; "Darrell D. Mobley" >> ; "'Krausert, Robert'" < >> robert.krausert at intel.com>; >> >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:32 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> >> >> No worries. I just get a kick each year because my wife forgets >> her. I'll > >> come and she asks about my day at work. And once a year I get to >> say "I >> hung up my fully color calendar by Nadine." Something in English to >> English >> translation between husband and wide. The word "by" always gets >> interpretted >> as "of." It's so cool. Just avoid rocketry terms such as vertical, > thrust, >> slow, fast, long, short, wide, narrow, stable, etc while >> discussing it. >> >> There are msny rocketry terms, but might get me moderated. ;-) LOL >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClappFamily" >> >>> >> To: "Darrell D. Mobley" ; "'Krausert, >> Robert'" >> ; >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:05 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> >> >> I've been busy and haven't ordered any this year. >> >> Rick >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" >> >> To: "'Krausert, Robert'" ; >> >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> >> >> Nadine announced its release in August. >> >> http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/3005/30/ >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets- >> bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> ] >> On Behalf Of Krausert, Robert >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:07 PM >> To: Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: [RocketsNW] Paging Rick Clapp; re; Calendars by Nadine >> >> Hi Rick, >> Have you heard if 2010 Calendar By Nadine are availavle yet? Are you >> planning another group order us in OROC? If so, please add me for >> one. >> Might be too late for the OROC Dec 3rd meeting. >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From appusher at q.com Tue Nov 24 18:23:54 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 02:23:54 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website Message-ID: Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website actively now. This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most recent changes. Bill EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 19:42:12 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:42:12 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What website? On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bill Munds wrote: > > > > Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website actively > now. > > This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get > there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most recent > changes. > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > Join me > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From dmrandall at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 21:10:50 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:10:50 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6bc920e40911242110j535576f2k28d3ccf1ddd95aae@mail.gmail.com> My guess: http://pugetsoundpropulsion.com/ Dave On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther wrote: > What website? > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bill Munds wrote: > >> >> >> >> Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website actively >> now. >> >> This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get >> there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most recent >> changes. >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ?EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >> Join me >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From appusher at q.com Tue Nov 24 21:16:43 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:16:43 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911242110j535576f2k28d3ccf1ddd95aae@mail.gmail.com> References: , , <6bc920e40911242110j535576f2k28d3ccf1ddd95aae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yep. My bad for not including that. Bill EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:10:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website > From: dmrandall at gmail.com > To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > CC: appusher at q.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > My guess: > > http://pugetsoundpropulsion.com/ > > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther > wrote: > > What website? > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bill Munds wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website actively > >> now. > >> > >> This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get > >> there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most recent > >> changes. > >> > >> > >> > >> Bill > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > >> Join me > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > -- > - Dave From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 21:22:34 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:22:34 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website References: , , <6bc920e40911242110j535576f2k28d3ccf1ddd95aae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8E0818EE53D24E6BA5A6B7D323500789@LaptopKrausert> Bill, No offense, but there's something wrong with the picture on the main. Dave is working... What's up with that? And he looked serious. Where's he find the time? LOL Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Munds" To: "Dave Randall" ; "Chris Guenther" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website > > Yep. My bad for not including that. > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > Join me > > > >> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:10:50 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> From: dmrandall at gmail.com >> To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> CC: appusher at q.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> My guess: >> >> http://pugetsoundpropulsion.com/ >> >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther >> wrote: >> > What website? >> > >> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bill Munds wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website >> >> actively >> >> now. >> >> >> >> This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get >> >> there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most >> >> recent >> >> changes. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >> >> Join me >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> - Dave > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From appusher at q.com Tue Nov 24 21:28:29 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:28:29 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website In-Reply-To: <8E0818EE53D24E6BA5A6B7D323500789@LaptopKrausert> References: , , <6bc920e40911242110j535576f2k28d3ccf1ddd95aae@mail.gmail.com> , <8E0818EE53D24E6BA5A6B7D323500789@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: Whaddya mean Robert? He aint workin! He's prepin a rocket so he can stay one launch ahead of me (last rack bill). EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com > To: appusher at q.com; dmrandall at gmail.com; guentherchristopher at gmail.com > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:22:34 -0800 > > Bill, > No offense, but there's something wrong with the picture on the main. Dave > is working... What's up with that? And he looked serious. Where's he find > the time? LOL > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Munds" > To: "Dave Randall" ; "Chris Guenther" > > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:16 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website > > > > > > Yep. My bad for not including that. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > > Join me > > > > > > > >> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:10:50 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website > >> From: dmrandall at gmail.com > >> To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com > >> CC: appusher at q.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > >> My guess: > >> > >> http://pugetsoundpropulsion.com/ > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther > >> wrote: > >> > What website? > >> > > >> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bill Munds wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website > >> >> actively > >> >> now. > >> >> > >> >> This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get > >> >> there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most > >> >> recent > >> >> changes. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Bill > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > >> >> Join me > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Rockets mailing list > >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> >> > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockets mailing list > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> - Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Tue Nov 24 23:53:05 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:53:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for an adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer. As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct physical contact with the glow plug element. It's much less forgiving of user error or inattention to detail. I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think glow plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well understood standard technology. NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. But in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. They want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that element nearing burnout?" +McG+ > I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the > Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the > "e-match". > > Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more > permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done > this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a > lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and > semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making > deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is > my method of choice right now). > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... > > -- > - Dave > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From rockets at sunrivernaturecenter.org Wed Nov 25 00:37:09 2009 From: rockets at sunrivernaturecenter.org (robert grossfeld) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:37:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Sunriver update......... Message-ID: Greetings rocketeers, As Thanksgiving approaches, we all have much to be Thankful for. And, with the big shopping day right around the corner, it must be time for our annual winter sale, so it is coming soon. Keep your eyes peeled! I wish you and your family the best during this holiday weekend. Enjoy,,,,,,, Bob Grossfeld- Observatory Manager Sunriver Nature Center & Observatory POB 3533, Sunriver, OR. 97707 Ph. 541-598-4406 Fax 541-593-5207 Inspire present and future generations to cherish and understand our natural world. From dmrandall at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 06:39:42 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:39:42 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website In-Reply-To: References: <6bc920e40911242110j535576f2k28d3ccf1ddd95aae@mail.gmail.com> <8E0818EE53D24E6BA5A6B7D323500789@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <6bc920e40911250639k27c958dfi2b5ec997a8a672d1@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone told Dave he can just buy a tube that is pre-sized for a motor? He doesn't have to drill it out. I realize that's the old way it used to be done.. but hey, times have changed, we have better technology now... Dave On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Bill Munds wrote: > > Whaddya mean Robert? ?He aint workin! ?He's prepin a rocket so he can stay one launch ahead of me (last rack bill). > > > > > > > > > > ?EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > Join me > >> From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com >> To: appusher at q.com; dmrandall at gmail.com; guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:22:34 -0800 >> >> Bill, >> No offense, but there's something wrong with the picture on the main. Dave >> is working... What's up with that? And he looked serious. Where's he find >> the time? LOL >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bill Munds" >> To: "Dave Randall" ; "Chris Guenther" >> >> Cc: >> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:16 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> >> >> > >> > Yep. My bad for not including that. >> > >> > >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >> > Join me >> > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:10:50 -0800 >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> >> From: dmrandall at gmail.com >> >> To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> >> CC: appusher at q.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> >> My guess: >> >> >> >> http://pugetsoundpropulsion.com/ >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther >> >> wrote: >> >> > What website? >> >> > >> >> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bill Munds wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website >> >> >> actively >> >> >> now. >> >> >> >> >> >> This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get >> >> >> there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most >> >> >> recent >> >> >> changes. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >> >> >> Join me >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Rockets mailing list >> >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> - Dave >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From dmrandall at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 07:32:35 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:32:35 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Keith.. I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their price. But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry that forward to in-flight use. Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? Dave On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: > The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for an > adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. ?And it's just a timer. > > As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a > shorter period. ?And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct > physical contact with the glow plug element. ?It's much less forgiving of > user error or inattention to detail. > > I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way > around ATF. ?If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think glow > plug designs will see more use. ?Until then, ematches are the well > understood standard technology. > > NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. ?But > in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. ?They > want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. ?Rocket > hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies > usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. > > And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue > with glow plugs. ?Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a > finite life. ?That may be shorter with BP, dunno. ?With ematches there's > no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that element > nearing burnout?" > +McG+ > > >> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >> "e-match". >> >> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >> permanent solution on electronics bays? ?Has anyone on the list done >> this type of ejection charge setup? ?It just seems to make a heck of a >> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >> my method of choice right now). >> >> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >> >> -- >> - Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > -- - Dave From mrrominwa at yahoo.com Wed Nov 25 07:43:10 2009 From: mrrominwa at yahoo.com (dave woodard) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:43:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911250639k27c958dfi2b5ec997a8a672d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <137928.44634.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> For all the comment I 'm installing motor retention retaining screws, also I'm not trying to stay one launch in front of bill it's fifty dave --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Dave Randall wrote: From: Dave Randall Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website To: "Bill Munds" Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 6:39 AM Has anyone told Dave he can just buy a tube that is pre-sized for a motor?? He doesn't have to drill it out.? I realize that's the old way it used to be done.. but hey, times have changed, we have better technology now... Dave On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Bill Munds wrote: > > Whaddya mean Robert? ?He aint workin! ?He's prepin a rocket so he can stay one launch ahead of me (last rack bill). > > > > > > > > > > ?EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > Join me > >> From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com >> To: appusher at q.com; dmrandall at gmail.com; guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:22:34 -0800 >> >> Bill, >> No offense, but there's something wrong with the picture on the main. Dave >> is working... What's up with that? And he looked serious. Where's he find >> the time? LOL >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bill Munds" >> To: "Dave Randall" ; "Chris Guenther" >> >> Cc: >> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:16 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> >> >> > >> > Yep. My bad for not including that. >> > >> > >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >> > Join me >> > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:10:50 -0800 >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> >> From: dmrandall at gmail.com >> >> To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> >> CC: appusher at q.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> >> My guess: >> >> >> >> http://pugetsoundpropulsion.com/ >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther >> >> wrote: >> >> > What website? >> >> > >> >> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bill Munds wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website >> >> >> actively >> >> >> now. >> >> >> >> >> >> This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get >> >> >> there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most >> >> >> recent >> >> >> changes. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >> >> >> Join me >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Rockets mailing list >> >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> - Dave >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From arrsales at cox.net Wed Nov 25 08:02:45 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:02:45 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com> <6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local> Mornin! For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A dead 9v battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... Your margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a dozen times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one single granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter battery will last a lot longer too. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Dave Randall Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Cc: Rockets NW list Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Thanks Keith.. I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their price. But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry that forward to in-flight use. Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? Dave On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: > The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for an > adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. ?And it's just a timer. > > As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a > shorter period. ?And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct > physical contact with the glow plug element. ?It's much less forgiving of > user error or inattention to detail. > > I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way > around ATF. ?If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think glow > plug designs will see more use. ?Until then, ematches are the well > understood standard technology. > > NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. ?But > in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. ?They > want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. ?Rocket > hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies > usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. > > And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue > with glow plugs. ?Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a > finite life. ?That may be shorter with BP, dunno. ?With ematches there's > no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that element > nearing burnout?" > +McG+ > > >> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >> "e-match". >> >> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >> permanent solution on electronics bays? ?Has anyone on the list done >> this type of ejection charge setup? ?It just seems to make a heck of a >> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >> my method of choice right now). >> >> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >> >> -- >> - Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > -- - Dave _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From dmrandall at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 08:12:30 2009 From: dmrandall at gmail.com (Dave Randall) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:12:30 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local> References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com> <6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com> <8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local> Message-ID: <6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here's what comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider: 1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament. 2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flight failure? or does the BP protect it? 3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight? 4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire the BP Thanks in advance... Dave On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > Mornin! > > For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for > years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. ?A dead 9v > battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... > > I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. > 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. ?9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 > watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... ?Your > margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a dozen > times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one single > granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter > battery will last a lot longer too. > > Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Dave Randall > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: Rockets NW list > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks Keith.. > > I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. ?I have altimeters, and > wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their > price. > > But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs > are a viable alternative to ematches. ?I am pretty sure I can get the > BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. ?And, I can > ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. > > I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an > altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience > with going this route. ?At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. > I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. ?It's not > necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground > testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry > that forward to in-flight use. > > Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? > > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, ? wrote: >> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for an >> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. ?And it's just a timer. >> >> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >> shorter period. ?And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >> physical contact with the glow plug element. ?It's much less forgiving of >> user error or inattention to detail. >> >> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >> around ATF. ?If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think glow >> plug designs will see more use. ?Until then, ematches are the well >> understood standard technology. >> >> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. ?But >> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. ?They >> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. ?Rocket >> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >> >> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue >> with glow plugs. ?Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >> finite life. ?That may be shorter with BP, dunno. ?With ematches there's >> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that element >> nearing burnout?" >> +McG+ >> >> >>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>> "e-match". >>> >>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>> permanent solution on electronics bays? ?Has anyone on the list done >>> this type of ejection charge setup? ?It just seems to make a heck of a >>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>> my method of choice right now). >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > - Dave > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From arrsales at cox.net Wed Nov 25 08:53:48 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:53:48 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com> <6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com> <8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local> <6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> Fragility is one of the drawbacks.. Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and then just pick some away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with packaging tape so it's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've pulled 18g's to mach 1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of the plastic base and just solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted cat 5 cable. I just sit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a whole bunch in advance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the continuity. If it hasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, it's probably not ever going to happen. :) -----Original Message----- From: Dave Randall [mailto:dmrandall at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here's what comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider: 1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament. 2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flight failure? or does the BP protect it? 3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight? 4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire the BP Thanks in advance... Dave On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > Mornin! > > For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for > years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. ?A dead 9v > battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... > > I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. > 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. ?9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 > watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... ?Your > margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a dozen > times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one single > granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter > battery will last a lot longer too. > > Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Dave Randall > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: Rockets NW list > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks Keith.. > > I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. ?I have altimeters, and > wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their > price. > > But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs > are a viable alternative to ematches. ?I am pretty sure I can get the > BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. ?And, I can > ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. > > I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an > altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience > with going this route. ?At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. > I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. ?It's not > necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground > testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry > that forward to in-flight use. > > Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? > > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, ? wrote: >> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for an >> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. ?And it's just a timer. >> >> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >> shorter period. ?And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >> physical contact with the glow plug element. ?It's much less forgiving of >> user error or inattention to detail. >> >> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >> around ATF. ?If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think glow >> plug designs will see more use. ?Until then, ematches are the well >> understood standard technology. >> >> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. ?But >> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. ?They >> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. ?Rocket >> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >> >> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue >> with glow plugs. ?Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >> finite life. ?That may be shorter with BP, dunno. ?With ematches there's >> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that element >> nearing burnout?" >> +McG+ >> >> >>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>> "e-match". >>> >>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>> permanent solution on electronics bays? ?Has anyone on the list done >>> this type of ejection charge setup? ?It just seems to make a heck of a >>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>> my method of choice right now). >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > - Dave > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave From glech at aol.com Wed Nov 25 10:11:02 2009 From: glech at aol.com (Gary Lech) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:11:02 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com><6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com><8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local><6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com> <240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> Message-ID: I've been researching this topic as well. The Pratt Hobbies ejection charge cannisters use a Christmas light bulb also (http://www.pratthobbies.com/products.asp?cat=1). If you use Pyrodex P for the charge it eliminates the need for a LEUP. Many use centrifuge tubes for cannisters. The whole solution is pretty cheap and, like you said, you can pop on a video and fabricate a whole bunch at a time then ground test a dozen or so without going broke. I'm building my L2 rocket this winter so this is likely a solution I'll try. Cheers from ~ Gary Lech WA7GL/TRA #12334 ----- Original Message ----- From: Always Ready Rocketry To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Fragility is one of the drawbacks.. Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and then just pick some away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with packaging tape so it's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've pulled 18g's to mach 1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of the plastic base and just solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted cat 5 cable. I just sit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a whole bunch in advance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the continuity. If it hasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, it's probably not ever going to happen. :) -----Original Message----- From: Dave Randall [mailto:dmrandall at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here's what comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider: 1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament. 2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flight failure? or does the BP protect it? 3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight? 4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire the BP Thanks in advance... Dave On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > Mornin! > > For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for > years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A dead 9v > battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... > > I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. > 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 > watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... Your > margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a dozen > times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one single > granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter > battery will last a lot longer too. > > Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Dave Randall > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: Rockets NW list > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks Keith.. > > I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and > wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their > price. > > But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs > are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the > BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can > ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. > > I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an > altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience > with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. > I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not > necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground > testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry > that forward to in-flight use. > > Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? > > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for an >> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer. >> >> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >> shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >> physical contact with the glow plug element. It's much less forgiving of >> user error or inattention to detail. >> >> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >> around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think glow >> plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well >> understood standard technology. >> >> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. But >> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. They >> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket >> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >> >> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue >> with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >> finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's >> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that element >> nearing burnout?" >> +McG+ >> >> >>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>> "e-match". >>> >>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done >>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a >>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>> my method of choice right now). >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> From robert.krausert at intel.com Wed Nov 25 10:33:46 2009 From: robert.krausert at intel.com (Krausert, Robert) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:33:46 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Updating our website In-Reply-To: <6bc920e40911250639k27c958dfi2b5ec997a8a672d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bc920e40911242110j535576f2k28d3ccf1ddd95aae@mail.gmail.com> <8E0818EE53D24E6BA5A6B7D323500789@LaptopKrausert> <6bc920e40911250639k27c958dfi2b5ec997a8a672d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D4616E6925F9541919B60692F61509E4641DE3C@orsmsx502.amr.corp.intel.com> That is a classic PSP picture. Bill, smiling and all happy. Dave, trying to figure out how to plug in that new fangled drill. What's this button do? Ooh... LOL, just a pick'in on ya Dave. Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Dave Randall Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:40 AM To: Bill Munds Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website Has anyone told Dave he can just buy a tube that is pre-sized for a motor? He doesn't have to drill it out. I realize that's the old way it used to be done.. but hey, times have changed, we have better technology now... Dave On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Bill Munds wrote: > > Whaddya mean Robert? ?He aint workin! ?He's prepin a rocket so he can stay one launch ahead of me (last rack bill). > > > > > > > > > > ?EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD > Join me > >> From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com >> To: appusher at q.com; dmrandall at gmail.com; guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:22:34 -0800 >> >> Bill, >> No offense, but there's something wrong with the picture on the main. Dave >> is working... What's up with that? And he looked serious. Where's he find >> the time? LOL >> >> Cheers, >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bill Munds" >> To: "Dave Randall" ; "Chris Guenther" >> >> Cc: >> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:16 PM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> >> >> > >> > Yep. My bad for not including that. >> > >> > >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >> > Join me >> > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:10:50 -0800 >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Updating our website >> >> From: dmrandall at gmail.com >> >> To: guentherchristopher at gmail.com >> >> CC: appusher at q.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> >> My guess: >> >> >> >> http://pugetsoundpropulsion.com/ >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Guenther >> >> wrote: >> >> > What website? >> >> > >> >> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Bill Munds wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Just wanted to let everyone know that we are updating our website >> >> >> actively >> >> >> now. >> >> >> >> >> >> This is just a reminder for you to hit the refresh button when you get >> >> >> there if you don't already have your browser set to look for the most >> >> >> recent >> >> >> changes. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >> >> >> Join me >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Rockets mailing list >> >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> - Dave >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From t3tsolottsolo at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 11:15:34 2009 From: t3tsolottsolo at gmail.com (Tsolo Tsolo) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:15:34 -0700 Subject: [RocketsNW] Glow plug ejection Message-ID: <987b3b040911251115x6134bbf9x44306316c9659c74@mail.gmail.com> Dave Oliver Schubert out of Vegas sells a product called "NoMatch". If you use pyrodex with it no regulation. Peace Tsolo From guentherchristopher at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 14:05:08 2009 From: guentherchristopher at gmail.com (Christopher Guenther) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:05:08 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Glow plug ejection In-Reply-To: <987b3b040911251115x6134bbf9x44306316c9659c74@mail.gmail.com> References: <987b3b040911251115x6134bbf9x44306316c9659c74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Oliver Schubert's NoMatch can be found at http://www.lvhq.net/NoMatch/ On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Tsolo Tsolo wrote: > Dave > > Oliver Schubert out of Vegas sells a product called "NoMatch". If you > use pyrodex with it no regulation. > > Peace > > Tsolo > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From brodwcjj at integrity.com Wed Nov 25 17:02:38 2009 From: brodwcjj at integrity.com (brodwcjj at integrity.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:02:38 -0600 Subject: [RocketsNW] Space Station/Shuttle Message-ID: <53af88cb1defada6f2efbe31302f13e6.squirrel@wm.integrity.com> Just went out for the ISS pass overhead and saw it being followed a few degrees behind by a slightly dimmer satellite. The shuttle must be undocked already. Cool I've been wanting to see the two together unattached for a long time. Dustin FYI: tomorrows pass for ISS for Portland area 5:08 pm Grab a turkey drumstick from the table and take a look. I wonder how far apart they will be by then? From carl20320 at msn.com Wed Nov 25 17:20:59 2009 From: carl20320 at msn.com (Carl Degner) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:20:59 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Space Station/Shuttle In-Reply-To: <53af88cb1defada6f2efbe31302f13e6.squirrel@wm.integrity.com> References: <53af88cb1defada6f2efbe31302f13e6.squirrel@wm.integrity.com> Message-ID: Too low and too bright to see anything faint but did see the ISS low on the horizon. Had a large bank of clouds that would have prevented seeing earlier. > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:02:38 -0600 > From: brodwcjj at integrity.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Space Station/Shuttle > > Just went out for the ISS pass overhead and saw it being followed a few > degrees behind by a slightly dimmer satellite. The shuttle must be > undocked already. > Cool I've been wanting to see the two together unattached for a long time. > > Dustin > > > FYI: > tomorrows pass for ISS for Portland area 5:08 pm > Grab a turkey drumstick from the table and take a look. > I wonder how far apart they will be by then? > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From bar0051 at homenetnw.net Wed Nov 25 21:14:42 2009 From: bar0051 at homenetnw.net (Bryon Schopp) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:14:42 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com><6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com><8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local><6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com> <240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> Message-ID: I have used a number of Xmas tree bulbs and had no trouble. The filaments are not as fragile as you might think, I broke a few of them to see what it took and they took a lot of stretching to break. I CA the bulb into the socket to make sure it does not vibrate loose and in my 4in. dia. rocket I use 2 bulbs in the same charge. http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/?action=view¤t=DualXmastreebulbs.jpgBryon----- Original Message -----From: "Always Ready Rocketry" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:53 AMSubject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution?Fragility is one of the drawbacks..Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and then just picksome away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with packaging tape soit's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've pulled 18g's to mach1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of the plastic base andjust solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted cat 5 cable. I justsit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a whole bunch inadvance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the continuity. If ithasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, it's probably notever going to happen. :)-----Original Message-----From: Dave Randall [mailto:dmrandall at gmail.com]Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AMTo: Always Ready RocketryCc: rockets at rocketsnw.comSubject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution?Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here'swhat comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider:1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament.2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flightfailure? or does the BP protect it?3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight?4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire theBPThanks in advance...DaveOn Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry wrote:> Mornin!>> For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for> years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A dead9v> battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel...>> I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms..> 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4> watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops...Your> margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a dozen> times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if onesingle> granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter> battery will last a lot longer too.>> Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!>> -----Original Message-----> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com]> On Behalf Of Dave Randall> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com> Cc: Rockets NW list> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution?>> Thanks Keith..>> I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and> wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their> price.>> But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs> are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the> BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can> ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight.>> I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an> altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience> with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap.> I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not> necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground> testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry> that forward to in-flight use.>> Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs?>> Dave>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote:>> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for an>> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer.>>>> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a>> shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct>> physical contact with the glow plug element. It' s much less forgiving of>> user error or inattention to detail.>>>> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way>> around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I thinkglow>> plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well>> understood standard technology.>>>> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. But>> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. They>> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket>> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies>> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use.>>>> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue>> with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a>> finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's>> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is thatelement>> nearing burnout?">> +McG+>>>>>>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the>>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the>>> "e-match".>>>>>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more>>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done>>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a>>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and>>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making>>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is>>> my method of choice right now).>>>>>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this...>>>>>> -->>> - Dave>>> _______________________________________________>>> Rockets mailing list>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --> - Dave> _______________________________________________> Rockets mailing list> Rockets at rocketsnw.com> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets>>> _______________________________________________> Rockets mailing list> Rockets at rocketsnw.com> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets>>--- Dave_______________________________________________Rockets mailing listRockets at rocketsnw.comhttp://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From bar0051 at homenetnw.net Wed Nov 25 21:19:15 2009 From: bar0051 at homenetnw.net (Bryon Schopp) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:19:15 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com><6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com><8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local><6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com> <240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> Message-ID: <6CB30324BD1F47558F28A4730037560B@MEDIONDeskTop> The link on my last message did not come thought correctly, I'll try again. http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/?action=view¤t=DualXmastreebulbs.jpg Bryon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Always Ready Rocketry" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Fragility is one of the drawbacks.. Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and then just pick some away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with packaging tape so it's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've pulled 18g's to mach 1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of the plastic base and just solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted cat 5 cable. I just sit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a whole bunch in advance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the continuity. If it hasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, it's probably not ever going to happen. :) -----Original Message----- From: Dave Randall [mailto:dmrandall at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here's what comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider: 1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament. 2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flight failure? or does the BP protect it? 3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight? 4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire the BP Thanks in advance... Dave On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > Mornin! > > For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for > years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A dead 9v > battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... > > I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. > 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 > watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... Your > margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a dozen > times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one single > granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter > battery will last a lot longer too. > > Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Dave Randall > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: Rockets NW list > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks Keith.. > > I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and > wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their > price. > > But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs > are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the > BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can > ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. > > I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an > altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience > with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. > I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not > necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground > testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry > that forward to in-flight use. > > Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? > > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for an >> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer. >> >> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >> shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >> physical contact with the glow plug element. It's much less forgiving of >> user error or inattention to detail. >> >> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >> around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think glow >> plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well >> understood standard technology. >> >> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. But >> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. They >> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket >> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >> >> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue >> with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >> finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's >> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that element >> nearing burnout?" >> +McG+ >> >> >>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>> "e-match". >>> >>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done >>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a >>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>> my method of choice right now). >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > - Dave > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > -- - Dave _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 22:03:51 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:03:51 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com><6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com><8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local><6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com><240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> <6CB30324BD1F47558F28A4730037560B@MEDIONDeskTop> Message-ID: <991C70027D924C2E877566E89CEA90F5@LaptopKrausert> Bryon, Not intended at you. Just my two cents. All, Well for me I have two concerns. While an ematch lead is secure from G force and vibration, the filment of the light is not. Thrust or drouge deployment might be enough to damage them. Second is the use of pyrodex. Dirty and doesn't create the fast expanding pressure 4F BP does. I'm sure it can be done with a Christmas light and pyrodex. And no offense. But if you're trying to be cheap, stick to low power or motor ejection. My point is you're tossing a rocket into the sky with a $100+ altimeter, $100+ motor assembly, $200+ tracking device, $100+ in rocket airframe, plus laundry. And you're trying to save money on getting a ematch and BP. And for those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun shop and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I believe Oregon shops are dry. Rather not say I saved $0.15 on my car insurance. Do the right thing. Use the best components to protect your investment. Get over it, HPR costs money. Goes with an ematch you trust & and have tested. Go with the flint lock powder, ie 4F black powder. I never raised safety in this, I could have. But still with what works. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryon Schopp" To: "Always Ready Rocketry" ; Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > The link on my last message did not come thought correctly, I'll try > again. > > http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/?action=view¤t=DualXmastreebulbs.jpg > > Bryon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Always Ready Rocketry" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:53 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > Fragility is one of the drawbacks.. > > Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and then just > pick > some away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with packaging tape > so > it's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've pulled 18g's to mach > 1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of the plastic base and > just solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted cat 5 cable. I just > sit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a whole bunch in > advance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the continuity. If > it > hasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, it's probably not > ever going to happen. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Randall [mailto:dmrandall at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here's > what comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider: > > 1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament. > 2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flight > failure? or does the BP protect it? > 3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight? > 4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire > the > BP > > Thanks in advance... > > Dave > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry > wrote: >> Mornin! >> >> For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for >> years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A dead > 9v >> battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... >> >> I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. >> 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 >> watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... > Your >> margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a >> dozen >> times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one > single >> granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter >> battery will last a lot longer too. >> >> Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Dave Randall >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM >> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> Cc: Rockets NW list >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> Thanks Keith.. >> >> I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and >> wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their >> price. >> >> But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs >> are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the >> BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can >> ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. >> >> I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an >> altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience >> with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. >> I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not >> necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground >> testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry >> that forward to in-flight use. >> >> Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? >> >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >>> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for >>> an >>> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer. >>> >>> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >>> shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >>> physical contact with the glow plug element. It's much less forgiving of >>> user error or inattention to detail. >>> >>> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >>> around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think > glow >>> plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well >>> understood standard technology. >>> >>> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. But >>> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. They >>> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket >>> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >>> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >>> >>> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an >>> issue >>> with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >>> finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's >>> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that > element >>> nearing burnout?" >>> +McG+ >>> >>> >>>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>>> "e-match". >>>> >>>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done >>>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a >>>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>>> my method of choice right now). >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>>> >>>> -- >>>> - Dave >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> - Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > > -- > - Dave > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Wed Nov 25 22:13:54 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Message-ID: Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. The owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) Mike F. In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: And for those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun shop and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I believe Oregon shops are dry. From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 22:17:03 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:17:03 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: Message-ID: There ya go. Next one going, I'll take a pound. I'm good for it. Cheers, Robert But my remaining points are still there. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mfreptiles at aol.com To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; bar0051 at homenetnw.net ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. The owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) Mike F. In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: And for those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun shop and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I believe Oregon shops are dry. From billn at peak.org Wed Nov 25 22:13:32 2009 From: billn at peak.org (Bill Nelson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:13:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <991C70027D924C2E877566E89CEA90F5@LaptopKrausert> References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com><6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com><8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local><6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com><240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> <6CB30324BD1F47558F28A4730037560B@MEDIONDeskTop> <991C70027D924C2E877566E89CEA90F5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner > gun shop > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I > believe Oregon shops are dry. It's too bad that the BATF bans the sale of personally owned BP. I know a few people that have a pound or two of either fff or ffff that they just have sitting around in the cans. Bill From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 25 22:54:00 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:54:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Glow plug ejection In-Reply-To: References: <987b3b040911251115x6134bbf9x44306316c9659c74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c4e765cd0b92c1385f4bcf271b58122.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> I'm liking these units. Pick the configuration and connect to your favorite recovery initiation device. Apparently glow plug life, crud issues, etc are not a problem. Any technology which enables rocketeers to have more ability to tell ATF to go take a flying leap is good! +McG+ > Oliver Schubert's NoMatch can be found at http://www.lvhq.net/NoMatch/ > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Tsolo Tsolo > wrote: > >> Dave >> >> Oliver Schubert out of Vegas sells a product called "NoMatch". If you >> use pyrodex with it no regulation. >> >> Peace >> >> Tsolo >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From bar0051 at homenetnw.net Wed Nov 25 22:53:20 2009 From: bar0051 at homenetnw.net (Bryon Schopp) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:53:20 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com><6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com><8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local><6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com><240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> <6CB30324BD1F47558F28A4730037560B@MEDIONDeskTop> <991C70027D924C2E877566E89CEA90F5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: I do use 4F BP in my charges and I do not believe that the filaments are that fragile. But, as you said, there is a lot of money tied up in the airframe, altimeter, tracking transmitter, motor case, laundry, ect, not to mention the safety of persons in the flight path. So, lately I have been using Xmas bulbs AND an e-match. As you said, cheep insurance. Bryon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Krausert" To: "Bryon Schopp" ; "Always Ready Rocketry" ; Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > Bryon, > Not intended at you. Just my two cents. > > All, > Well for me I have two concerns. While an ematch lead is secure from G > force and vibration, the filment of the light is not. Thrust or drouge > deployment might be enough to damage them. Second is the use of pyrodex. > Dirty and doesn't create the fast expanding pressure 4F BP does. > > I'm sure it can be done with a Christmas light and pyrodex. And no > offense. But if you're trying to be cheap, stick to low power or motor > ejection. My point is you're tossing a rocket into the sky with a $100+ > altimeter, $100+ motor assembly, $200+ tracking device, $100+ in rocket > airframe, plus laundry. And you're trying to save money on getting a > ematch and BP. And for those that stated the other day, you cannot walk > down to the corner gun shop and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of > selling it. Salem might. But I believe Oregon shops are dry. > > Rather not say I saved $0.15 on my car insurance. Do the right thing. Use > the best components to protect your investment. Get over it, HPR costs > money. Goes with an ematch you trust & and have tested. Go with the flint > lock powder, ie 4F black powder. I never raised safety in this, I could > have. But still with what works. > Cheers, > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryon Schopp" > To: "Always Ready Rocketry" ; > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:19 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > >> The link on my last message did not come thought correctly, I'll try >> again. >> >> http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/?action=view¤t=DualXmastreebulbs.jpg >> >> Bryon >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Always Ready Rocketry" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> Fragility is one of the drawbacks.. >> >> Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and then just >> pick >> some away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with packaging tape >> so >> it's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've pulled 18g's to mach >> 1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of the plastic base and >> just solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted cat 5 cable. I just >> sit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a whole bunch in >> advance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the continuity. If >> it >> hasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, it's probably not >> ever going to happen. :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dave Randall [mailto:dmrandall at gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AM >> To: Always Ready Rocketry >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here's >> what comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider: >> >> 1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament. >> 2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flight >> failure? or does the BP protect it? >> 3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight? >> 4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire >> the >> BP >> >> Thanks in advance... >> >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry >> wrote: >>> Mornin! >>> >>> For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for >>> years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A dead >> 9v >>> battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... >>> >>> I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 >>> ohms.. >>> 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 >>> watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... >> Your >>> margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a >>> dozen >>> times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one >> single >>> granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter >>> battery will last a lot longer too. >>> >>> Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> On Behalf Of Dave Randall >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM >>> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> Cc: Rockets NW list >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> >>> Thanks Keith.. >>> >>> I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and >>> wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their >>> price. >>> >>> But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs >>> are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the >>> BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can >>> ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. >>> >>> I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an >>> altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience >>> with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. >>> I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not >>> necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground >>> testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry >>> that forward to in-flight use. >>> >>> Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >>>> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for >>>> an >>>> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer. >>>> >>>> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >>>> shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >>>> physical contact with the glow plug element. It's much less forgiving >>>> of >>>> user error or inattention to detail. >>>> >>>> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >>>> around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think >> glow >>>> plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well >>>> understood standard technology. >>>> >>>> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. But >>>> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. >>>> They >>>> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket >>>> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >>>> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >>>> >>>> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an >>>> issue >>>> with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >>>> finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's >>>> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that >> element >>>> nearing burnout?" >>>> +McG+ >>>> >>>> >>>>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>>>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>>>> "e-match". >>>>> >>>>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>>>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done >>>>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a >>>>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>>>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>>>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>>>> my method of choice right now). >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> - Dave >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Rockets mailing list >>>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> - Dave >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Wed Nov 25 23:08:43 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:08:43 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Message-ID: That's an easy one..........Trade them some beer. :) Mike F. In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:34:42 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, billn at peak.org writes: It's too bad that the BATF bans the sale of personally owned BP. I know a few people that have a pound or two of either fff or ffff that they just have sitting around in the cans. From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 25 23:09:13 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:09:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <991C70027D924C2E877566E89CEA90F5@LaptopKrausert> References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com><6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com><8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local><6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com><240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> <6CB30324BD1F47558F28A4730037560B@MEDIONDeskTop> <991C70027D924C2E877566E89CEA90F5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <1b5adda77ccc4cd1513bf322ca959d63.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Ah, this would be the "conservative attitude" I mentioned in an earlier post. Not without merit, not by a long shot. As for the availability of 4Fg, it's partly a matter of local AHJ storage requirements and partly due to the fact that 4Fg is used in only very small quantities by black powder firearm enthusiasts. +McG+ > Bryon, > Not intended at you. Just my two cents. > > All, > Well for me I have two concerns. While an ematch lead is secure from G > force > and vibration, the filment of the light is not. Thrust or drouge > deployment > might be enough to damage them. Second is the use of pyrodex. Dirty and > doesn't create the fast expanding pressure 4F BP does. > > I'm sure it can be done with a Christmas light and pyrodex. And no > offense. > But if you're trying to be cheap, stick to low power or motor ejection. My > point is you're tossing a rocket into the sky with a $100+ altimeter, > $100+ > motor assembly, $200+ tracking device, $100+ in rocket airframe, plus > laundry. And you're trying to save money on getting a ematch and BP. And > for > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun > shop > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I > believe Oregon shops are dry. > > Rather not say I saved $0.15 on my car insurance. Do the right thing. Use > the best components to protect your investment. Get over it, HPR costs > money. Goes with an ematch you trust & and have tested. Go with the flint > lock powder, ie 4F black powder. I never raised safety in this, I could > have. But still with what works. > Cheers, > Robert > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryon Schopp" > To: "Always Ready Rocketry" ; > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:19 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > >> The link on my last message did not come thought correctly, I'll try >> again. >> >> http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/?action=view¤t=DualXmastreebulbs.jpg >> >> Bryon >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Always Ready Rocketry" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> Fragility is one of the drawbacks.. >> >> Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and then just >> pick >> some away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with packaging tape >> so >> it's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've pulled 18g's to >> mach >> 1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of the plastic base and >> just solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted cat 5 cable. I >> just >> sit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a whole bunch in >> advance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the continuity. >> If >> it >> hasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, it's probably >> not >> ever going to happen. :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dave Randall [mailto:dmrandall at gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AM >> To: Always Ready Rocketry >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here's >> what comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider: >> >> 1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament. >> 2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flight >> failure? or does the BP protect it? >> 3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight? >> 4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire >> the >> BP >> >> Thanks in advance... >> >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry >> >> wrote: >>> Mornin! >>> >>> For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for >>> years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A >>> dead >> 9v >>> battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... >>> >>> I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 >>> ohms.. >>> 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 >>> watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... >> Your >>> margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a >>> dozen >>> times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one >> single >>> granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your >>> altimeter >>> battery will last a lot longer too. >>> >>> Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> On Behalf Of Dave Randall >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM >>> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> Cc: Rockets NW list >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> >>> Thanks Keith.. >>> >>> I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and >>> wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their >>> price. >>> >>> But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs >>> are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the >>> BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can >>> ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. >>> >>> I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an >>> altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience >>> with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. >>> I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not >>> necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground >>> testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry >>> that forward to in-flight use. >>> >>> Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >>>> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for >>>> an >>>> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer. >>>> >>>> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >>>> shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >>>> physical contact with the glow plug element. It's much less forgiving >>>> of >>>> user error or inattention to detail. >>>> >>>> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >>>> around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think >> glow >>>> plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well >>>> understood standard technology. >>>> >>>> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. >>>> But >>>> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. >>>> They >>>> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket >>>> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >>>> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >>>> >>>> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an >>>> issue >>>> with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >>>> finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's >>>> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that >> element >>>> nearing burnout?" >>>> +McG+ >>>> >>>> >>>>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>>>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>>>> "e-match". >>>>> >>>>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>>>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done >>>>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a >>>>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>>>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>>>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>>>> my method of choice right now). >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> - Dave >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Rockets mailing list >>>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> - Dave >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 25 23:17:52 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com><6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com><8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local><6bc920e40911250812k5b32458s3edb79f39d993d51@mail.gmail.com> <240524366BE645B3B9C54B94EEC046E0@apcp.local> Message-ID: Those filaments are ductile pure tungsten. They're spot welded to the posts and are usually a doubly-coiled helix(think telephone handset cord coiled into a helix) so they have a lot of give in them. And the tensile strength of pure tungsten is pretty high. So even though it's very fine wire they don't break that easily. As to long term chemical compatibility with various pyrogens, I have no info. +McG+ > I have used a number of Xmas tree bulbs and had no trouble. The filaments > are not as fragile as you might think, I broke a few of them to see what > it > took and they took a lot of stretching to break. I CA the bulb into the > socket to make sure it does not vibrate loose and in my 4in. dia. rocket I > use 2 bulbs in the same charge. > http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/?action=view¤t=DualXmastreebulbs.jpgBryon----- > Original Message -----From: "Always Ready Rocketry" To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:53 AMSubject: > Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution?Fragility is one of the > drawbacks..Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and > then just picksome away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with > packaging tape soit's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've > pulled 18g's to mach1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of > the plastic base andjust solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted > cat 5 cable. I justsit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a > whole bunch inadvance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the > continuity. If ithasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, > it's probably notever going to happen. :)-----Original Message-----From: > Dave Randall [mailto:dm > randall at gmail.com]Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AMTo: Always > Ready RocketryCc: rockets at rocketsnw.comSubject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection > Charge Solution?Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb > setup? Here'swhat comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to > consider:1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the > filament.2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to > in-flightfailure? or does the BP protect it?3. Using the socket - Does > the connection stay constant in flight?4. Continuity test from the > altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire theBPThanks in > advance...DaveOn Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry > wrote:> Mornin!>> For those of you who know me, I've > been using Christmas Tree bulbs for> years. Same concept. Done properly, > they are incredibly reliable. A dead9v> battery (<7 v) will burn out the > filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel...>> I've done this math on other forums > before but a bulb is > about 2.5 ohms..> 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. > > 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4> watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts > before it pops...Your> margin of saftey is the fact that you are > overdriving the filament a dozen> times past it's rated power.. The > filament WILL burn out, and if onesingle> granule of bp is touching the > wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter> battery will last a lot longer > too.>> Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!>> -----Original Message-----> From: > rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com]> On > Behalf Of Dave Randall> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM> To: > kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com> Cc: Rockets NW list> Subject: Re: > [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution?>> Thanks Keith..>> I'm not > interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and> wouldn't go > "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their> price.>> But, > seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs> are a > viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the> BP in con > tact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can> ensure it > stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight.>> I was concerned > about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an> altimeter to light > the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience> with going this route. > At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap.> I almost spend that much on > e-matches for a single flight. It's not> necessarily about the cost, it's > about being able to do cheaper ground> testing and, assuming ground > testing goes fine, no reason not to carry> that forward to in-flight > use.>> Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs?>> > Dave>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, > wrote:>> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - > $40 for an>> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer.>>>> > As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a>> > shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that t > he BP be in direct>> physical contact with the glow plug element. It' > > s much less forgiving of>> user error or inattention to detail.>>>> I > remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way>> > around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I thinkglow>> > plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well>> > understood standard technology.>>>> NASA is always presented as an example > of technological innovation. But>> in fact, NASA is really very > conservative in its use of technology. They>> want stuff that is > absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket>> hobbyists on the > average tend to be the same way, so new technologies>> usually take a > while to work their way into widespread use.>>>> And it's possible(just > thinking here)that residue buildup may be an issue>> with glow plugs. Even > in their intended normal use glow plugs have a>> finite life. That may be > shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's>> no issue of, "How much > crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is thatelement>> nearing burnout?">> > +McG+>>>>>>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came > across the>>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug > as the>>> "e-match".>>>>>> Which made me think - why don't other folks > use these as a more>>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone > on the list done>>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to > make a heck of a>>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug > and>>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop > making>>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove > fingertips is>>> my method of choice right now).>>>>>> Thanks in advance > for any thoughts on this...>>>>>> -->>> - Dave>>> > _______________________________________________>>> Rockets mailing > list>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com>>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --> - > Dave> _______________________________________________> Rockets mailing > list> Rockets at rocketsnw.com> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman > /listinfo/rockets>>> _______________________________________________> > > Rockets mailing list> Rockets at rocketsnw.com> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets>>--- > Dave_______________________________________________Rockets mailing > listRockets at rocketsnw.comhttp://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Wed Nov 25 23:37:29 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:37:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local> References: <6bc920e40911231040y45cec00n4d14855299442f50@mail.gmail.com> <6bc920e40911250732l49871cf5r9210cf53704118f5@mail.gmail.com> <8345EF2D50A1443EB9E7F3ED0D79601D@apcp.local> Message-ID: <6efff9d0e81d80b1605a6d7157493542.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Remember that tungsten, like most conductors, exhibits a positive temperature-resistance curve. Resistance increases with increasing temperature, so a hot filament is drawing a lot less current than a cold filament. This is a detail which can adversely affect certain output transistors intolerant of even brief current spikes. Always use cold resistance to figure required current capacity from your electronics. It's difficult to make a true exploding bridge wire with tungsten(how *do* you measure a boiling point of 5660 C?), but a filament arcing across a break from excessive current makes for a nice *combusting* wire. And that's just fine too! +McG+ > Mornin! > > For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for > years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A dead > 9v > battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... > > I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. > 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 > watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... > Your > margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a dozen > times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one > single > granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter > battery will last a lot longer too. > > Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Dave Randall > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: Rockets NW list > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks Keith.. > > I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and > wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their > price. > > But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs > are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the > BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can > ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. > > I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an > altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience > with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. > I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not > necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground > testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry > that forward to in-flight use. > > Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? > > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for >> an >> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. ?And it's just a timer. >> >> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >> shorter period. ?And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >> physical contact with the glow plug element. ?It's much less forgiving >> of >> user error or inattention to detail. >> >> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >> around ATF. ?If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think >> glow >> plug designs will see more use. ?Until then, ematches are the well >> understood standard technology. >> >> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. ?But >> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. >> ?They >> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. ?Rocket >> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >> >> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an >> issue >> with glow plugs. ?Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >> finite life. ?That may be shorter with BP, dunno. ?With ematches there's >> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that >> element >> nearing burnout?" >> +McG+ >> >> >>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>> "e-match". >>> >>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>> permanent solution on electronics bays? ?Has anyone on the list done >>> this type of ejection charge setup? ?It just seems to make a heck of a >>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>> my method of choice right now). >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > - Dave > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From arrsales at cox.net Thu Nov 26 06:53:22 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:53:22 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <991C70027D924C2E877566E89CEA90F5@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <20091126145333245.SVKT12202@hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com> LOL! That's the same argument I get on the TRA forum. :) I trust bulbs over e-matches because that's what I'm most comfortible with. Perfectflite encourages their use on their website and even sells accessory items to make it easier to use. Granted, if I'm flying some insane min diameter beast at BALLS, yeah I'd probably use e-matches but then again I'd be running redundant altimeters anyway. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean it's not effective. I don't do it just for the cost, the electrical analysis shows the margin of current overdrive is magnitudes higher than an e-match. I keep a 36 foot express cruiser docked in saltwater, believe me, comparitively, rocketry is cheap! I have an LEUP, but I like the fact that as of today, you don't need one for Christmas tree lights. :) So far, 18g's with an L in a LOC Magnum and no recovery problems either. I wish everyone a wonderful Thanksgiving! Randy -----Original Message----- From: Robert Krausert [mailto:lawndart.robert at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:04 AM To: Bryon Schopp; Always Ready Rocketry; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Bryon, Not intended at you. Just my two cents. All, Well for me I have two concerns. While an ematch lead is secure from G force and vibration, the filment of the light is not. Thrust or drouge deployment might be enough to damage them. Second is the use of pyrodex. Dirty and doesn't create the fast expanding pressure 4F BP does. I'm sure it can be done with a Christmas light and pyrodex. And no offense. But if you're trying to be cheap, stick to low power or motor ejection. My point is you're tossing a rocket into the sky with a $100+ altimeter, $100+ motor assembly, $200+ tracking device, $100+ in rocket airframe, plus laundry. And you're trying to save money on getting a ematch and BP. And for those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun shop and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I believe Oregon shops are dry. Rather not say I saved $0.15 on my car insurance. Do the right thing. Use the best components to protect your investment. Get over it, HPR costs money. Goes with an ematch you trust & and have tested. Go with the flint lock powder, ie 4F black powder. I never raised safety in this, I could have. But still with what works. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryon Schopp" To: "Always Ready Rocketry" ; Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > The link on my last message did not come thought correctly, I'll try > again. > > http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/BAR0051/?action=view¤t=DualXmast reebulbs.jpg > > Bryon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Always Ready Rocketry" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:53 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > Fragility is one of the drawbacks.. > > Yes you have to break the glass, do so above the filament and then just > pick > some away. Push the bulb into the bp charge and wrap with packaging tape > so > it's firm. If you do that, it'll be just fine. I've pulled 18g's to mach > 1.2 and it's held together. I pull the bulb out of the plastic base and > just solder some wire to it (6 inch length of twisted cat 5 cable. I just > sit in front of the tv, pop in a movie and just make a whole bunch in > advance. No, I've never popped an ejection charge with the continuity. If > it > hasn't happened in 5 years with 4 different altimeters, it's probably not > ever going to happen. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Randall [mailto:dmrandall at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:13 AM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks for this. What is the fragility of the bulb setup? Here's > what comes to mind in terms of things I'd want to consider: > > 1. You have to break the bulb - potentially fracturing the filament. > 2. The filament itself seems awfully fragile - subject to in-flight > failure? or does the BP protect it? > 3. Using the socket - Does the connection stay constant in flight? > 4. Continuity test from the altimeter - I assume its not enough to fire > the > BP > > Thanks in advance... > > Dave > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Always Ready Rocketry > wrote: >> Mornin! >> >> For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for >> years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A dead > 9v >> battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in parallel... >> >> I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. >> 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is 32.4 >> watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... > Your >> margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a >> dozen >> times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if one > single >> granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. Your altimeter >> battery will last a lot longer too. >> >> Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Dave Randall >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM >> To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> Cc: Rockets NW list >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> Thanks Keith.. >> >> I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and >> wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their >> price. >> >> But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs >> are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the >> BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can >> ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. >> >> I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an >> altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience >> with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. >> I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not >> necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground >> testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry >> that forward to in-flight use. >> >> Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? >> >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >>> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 for >>> an >>> adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer. >>> >>> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >>> shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in direct >>> physical contact with the glow plug element. It's much less forgiving of >>> user error or inattention to detail. >>> >>> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >>> around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think > glow >>> plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the well >>> understood standard technology. >>> >>> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. But >>> in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. They >>> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket >>> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >>> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >>> >>> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an >>> issue >>> with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs have a >>> finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With ematches there's >>> no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too much?" or, "Is that > element >>> nearing burnout?" >>> +McG+ >>> >>> >>>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>>> "e-match". >>>> >>>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done >>>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of a >>>> lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>>> my method of choice right now). >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>>> >>>> -- >>>> - Dave >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockets mailing list >>>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> - Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > > -- > - Dave > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From arrsales at cox.net Thu Nov 26 06:55:27 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:55:27 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <6efff9d0e81d80b1605a6d7157493542.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <20091126145538099.SWIP12202@hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com> Well the nice part is that the wire doesn't even have to burn out, it just has to glow and be touching one grain of bp.. :) -----Original Message----- From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:37 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Remember that tungsten, like most conductors, exhibits a positive temperature-resistance curve. Resistance increases with increasing temperature, so a hot filament is drawing a lot less current than a cold filament. This is a detail which can adversely affect certain output transistors intolerant of even brief current spikes. Always use cold resistance to figure required current capacity from your electronics. It's difficult to make a true exploding bridge wire with tungsten(how *do* you measure a boiling point of 5660 C?), but a filament arcing across a break from excessive current makes for a nice *combusting* wire. And that's just fine too! +McG+ > Mornin! > > For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for > years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A > dead 9v battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in > parallel... > > I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. > 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is > 32.4 watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... > Your > margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a > dozen times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if > one single granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. > Your altimeter battery will last a lot longer too. > > Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Dave Randall > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: Rockets NW list > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks Keith.. > > I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and > wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their > price. > > But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs > are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the > BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can > ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. > > I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an > altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience > with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. > I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not > necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground > testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry > that forward to in-flight use. > > Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? > > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 >> for an adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. ?And it's just a timer. >> >> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >> shorter period. ?And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in >> direct physical contact with the glow plug element. ?It's much less >> forgiving of user error or inattention to detail. >> >> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >> around ATF. ?If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think >> glow plug designs will see more use. ?Until then, ematches are the >> well understood standard technology. >> >> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. ? >> But in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. >> ?They >> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. ?Rocket >> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >> >> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an >> issue with glow plugs. ?Even in their intended normal use glow plugs >> have a finite life. ?That may be shorter with BP, dunno. ?With >> ematches there's no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too >> much?" or, "Is that element nearing burnout?" >> +McG+ >> >> >>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>> "e-match". >>> >>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>> permanent solution on electronics bays? ?Has anyone on the list done >>> this type of ejection charge setup? ?It just seems to make a heck of >>> a lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>> my method of choice right now). >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > - Dave > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From rocketsrfun at msn.com Thu Nov 26 07:53:36 2009 From: rocketsrfun at msn.com (Don Harris ) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:53:36 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Happy Thanksgiving Message-ID: Have a wonderful bird or whatever your eating. Burn some AP for me... Don Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From glech at aol.com Thu Nov 26 08:21:52 2009 From: glech at aol.com (Gary Lech) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:21:52 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <20091126145538099.SWIP12202@hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: Another technique for ejection charges I've read about is to use the new Quest Q2G2 igniters. They are apparently very low current and also do not require a LEUP. Has anybody tried them? Happy Thanksgiving from ~ Gary Lech WA7GL ----- Original Message ----- From: Always Ready Rocketry To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 6:55 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Well the nice part is that the wire doesn't even have to burn out, it just has to glow and be touching one grain of bp.. :) -----Original Message----- From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com [mailto:kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com] Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:37 AM To: Always Ready Rocketry Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Remember that tungsten, like most conductors, exhibits a positive temperature-resistance curve. Resistance increases with increasing temperature, so a hot filament is drawing a lot less current than a cold filament. This is a detail which can adversely affect certain output transistors intolerant of even brief current spikes. Always use cold resistance to figure required current capacity from your electronics. It's difficult to make a true exploding bridge wire with tungsten(how *do* you measure a boiling point of 5660 C?), but a filament arcing across a break from excessive current makes for a nice *combusting* wire. And that's just fine too! +McG+ > Mornin! > > For those of you who know me, I've been using Christmas Tree bulbs for > years. Same concept. Done properly, they are incredibly reliable. A > dead 9v battery (<7 v) will burn out the filaments of 5 bulbs in > parallel... > > I've done this math on other forums before but a bulb is about 2.5 ohms.. > 9v / 2.5 ohms is 3.6 amps, never gonna get there. 9v x 3.6 amps is > 32.4 watts, yeah right.. The bulb will never see 2 watts before it pops... > Your > margin of saftey is the fact that you are overdriving the filament a > dozen times past it's rated power.. The filament WILL burn out, and if > one single granule of bp is touching the wire, your charge will go.. > Your altimeter battery will last a lot longer too. > > Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Dave Randall > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:33 AM > To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Cc: Rockets NW list > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Thanks Keith.. > > I'm not interested in buying the AT unit. I have altimeters, and > wouldn't go "back" to a timer based solution, certainly not at their > price. > > But, seeing that just got me wondering whether or not the glow plugs > are a viable alternative to ematches. I am pretty sure I can get the > BP in contact with the glow plug without much difficulty. And, I can > ensure it stays in contact with the BP throughout the flight. > > I was concerned about long term residue, battery draw, ability of an > altimeter to light the glow plug, and anyone's first hand experience > with going this route. At $6 each, the glow plugs are pretty cheap. > I almost spend that much on e-matches for a single flight. It's not > necessarily about the cost, it's about being able to do cheaper ground > testing and, assuming ground testing goes fine, no reason not to carry > that forward to in-flight use. > > Anyone else have experience or thoughts on using the glow plugs? > > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:53 PM, wrote: >> The Aerotech unit is a bit on the spendy side: $170 plus $25 - $40 >> for an adaptor to fit 29 and 38mm cases. And it's just a timer. >> >> As for DIY units with glow plugs, ematches require less current for a >> shorter period. And it is absolutely critical that the BP be in >> direct physical contact with the glow plug element. It's much less >> forgiving of user error or inattention to detail. >> >> I remember that glow plugs were discussed from time to time as a way >> around ATF. If the big bad wolf ever cracks down on ematches I think >> glow plug designs will see more use. Until then, ematches are the >> well understood standard technology. >> >> NASA is always presented as an example of technological innovation. >> But in fact, NASA is really very conservative in its use of technology. >> They >> want stuff that is absolutely, positively guaranteed to work. Rocket >> hobbyists on the average tend to be the same way, so new technologies >> usually take a while to work their way into widespread use. >> >> And it's possible(just thinking here)that residue buildup may be an >> issue with glow plugs. Even in their intended normal use glow plugs >> have a finite life. That may be shorter with BP, dunno. With >> ematches there's no issue of, "How much crud on the plug is too >> much?" or, "Is that element nearing burnout?" >> +McG+ >> >> >>> I was browsing valuerockets.com this morning, and came across the >>> Aerotech electronic foreward closure that uses a glow plug as the >>> "e-match". >>> >>> Which made me think - why don't other folks use these as a more >>> permanent solution on electronics bays? Has anyone on the list done >>> this type of ejection charge setup? It just seems to make a heck of >>> a lot of economic sense if you can get a $5 glow plug and >>> semi-permanently mount it to your electroncis bay and stop making >>> deployment charges the ole' fashioned way (latex glove fingertips is >>> my method of choice right now). >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this... >>> >>> -- >>> - Dave >>> _______________________________________________ From rocfish74 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 26 08:26:30 2009 From: rocfish74 at hotmail.com (Mark Lyons) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:26:30 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've ordered up to 5 lbs., no problem. Mark > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. The > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > And for > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun > shop > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I > believe Oregon shops are dry. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From kent.newman at comcast.net Thu Nov 26 09:07:56 2009 From: kent.newman at comcast.net (Kent Newman) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:07:56 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501ca6ebb$00938cd0$01baa670$@newman@comcast.net> Think group order..... -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Mark Lyons Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've ordered up to 5 lbs., no problem. Mark > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. The > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > And for > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun > shop > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I > believe Oregon shops are dry. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From glech at aol.com Thu Nov 26 09:20:44 2009 From: glech at aol.com (Gary Lech) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <000501ca6ebb$00938cd0$01baa670$@newman@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1656BF4417BA479CB8F51D4E2107487C@wink> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd never use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry career. Happy Thanksgiving, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Kent Newman To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Think group order..... -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Mark Lyons Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've ordered up to 5 lbs., no problem. Mark > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. The > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > And for > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun > shop > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I > believe Oregon shops are dry. > > From Mfreptiles at aol.com Thu Nov 26 09:21:38 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:21:38 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Happy Thanksgiving Message-ID: I burned some scrap yesterday. :) It's amazing how much smoke you get on high humidity days even from low/no smoke formulas. Was afraid my neighbors were going to call the fire department. Happy Tofurky Day! Mike F. In a message dated 11/26/2009 7:54:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, rocketsrfun at msn.com writes: Have a wonderful bird or whatever your eating. Burn some AP for me... From absworld at cet.com Thu Nov 26 10:28:42 2009 From: absworld at cet.com (Bob & Ann Yanecek) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:28:42 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ec01ca6ec6$48f890f0$dae9b2d0$@com> We learned a few years ago to skip the 20 second smoke grain when static firing motors. I think we would have gotten away with the 5 second 'roar' but that endless cloud of smoke that 'pointed us out' had sirens in the distance before we could even get our hands on the motor. The fact it was August in the middle of fire season din't help any. Thank gawd we knew the local fire dudes and a quick phone call extinguished the sirens before we had any 'splaining' to do. Hoping to test a new 54mm and 75mm later this weekend. I'm still gagging at the Tofurky thought. Extra thanks for the authentic unit that's just beginning to make the kitchen smell 'right'. Bob Yanecek -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Mfreptiles at aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:22 AM To: rocketsrfun at msn.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Happy Thanksgiving I burned some scrap yesterday. :) It's amazing how much smoke you get on high humidity days even from low/no smoke formulas. Was afraid my neighbors were going to call the fire department. Happy Tofurky Day! Mike F. In a message dated 11/26/2009 7:54:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, rocketsrfun at msn.com writes: Have a wonderful bird or whatever your eating. Burn some AP for me... _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From rocfish74 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 26 11:21:13 2009 From: rocfish74 at hotmail.com (Mark Lyons) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:21:13 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <000501ca6ebb$00938cd0$01baa670$@newman@comcast.net> References: , <000501ca6ebb$00938cd0$01baa670$@newman@comcast.net> Message-ID: Will gladly "share"....... HAPPY TURKEY DAY !!! > From: kent.newman at comcast.net > To: rocfish74 at hotmail.com; mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: RE: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:07:56 -0800 > > Think group order..... > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've ordered up to > 5 lbs., no problem. > > > > Mark > > > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; arrsales at cox.net; > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. The > > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > > > > Mike F. > > > > > > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > > > And for > > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun > > shop > > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I > > believe Oregon shops are dry. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From lsagan123 at msn.com Thu Nov 26 11:31:30 2009 From: lsagan123 at msn.com (Sareth Tes) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:31:30 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <1656BF4417BA479CB8F51D4E2107487C@wink> References: , <000501ca6ebb$00938cd0$01baa670$@newman@comcast.net>, <1656BF4417BA479CB8F51D4E2107487C@wink> Message-ID: Well Gary, You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. Ralph > From: glech at aol.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > > I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd never use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry career. > > Happy Thanksgiving, > Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kent Newman > To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > Think group order..... > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've ordered up to > 5 lbs., no problem. > > > > Mark > > > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; arrsales at cox.net; > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. The > > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > > > > Mike F. > > > > > > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > > > And for > > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun > > shop > > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I > > believe Oregon shops are dry. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 13:33:05 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:33:05 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] [semi-ot] Gobble Gobble... Message-ID: So, welcome to Rocketry. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. What national club are you with? Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Tripoli. Very nice. Are you thinking of getting a L1 cert? Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Cool. For your L1 cert, what rocket are you planning? Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Scratch build. Interesting. You know the best way to cure epoxy? Gobble? To cure epoxy, you get into this nice warm oven. Gobble?!!! Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. No no. It's ok. It helps strengthen the bond. Gobble? So climb on into the oven, ok? Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Really, it's safe. Gobble. Have a Happy Thanksgiving. You want to say anything to the list? Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. , Gobble!!!!!!!! From fred_bare at yahoo.com Thu Nov 26 13:54:09 2009 From: fred_bare at yahoo.com (Fred Bare) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:54:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] THANKSGIVING In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <596399.51489.qm@web33001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> We?would like to wish?all the rocketeers and their families a safe and HAPPY THANKSGIVING! Greg and DonLee Wilson Roadside Hobbies 253-961-4397? From john_lyngdal at verizon.net Thu Nov 26 17:25:29 2009 From: john_lyngdal at verizon.net (John Lyngdal) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:25:29 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Black Friday Special at Tammie's Hobbies In-Reply-To: <5c4e765cd0b92c1385f4bcf271b58122.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <987b3b040911251115x6134bbf9x44306316c9659c74@mail.gmail.com> <5c4e765cd0b92c1385f4bcf271b58122.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <000301ca6f00$821c3410$86549c30$@net> All Aerotech reloads and single use motors in stock at 30% off on Friday. Ask for Junior to get the special pricing. John From bclugston1 at comcast.net Thu Nov 26 17:32:46 2009 From: bclugston1 at comcast.net (William Clugston) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:32:46 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Great HD Shuttle launch video In-Reply-To: <000301ca6f00$821c3410$86549c30$@net> References: <987b3b040911251115x6134bbf9x44306316c9659c74@mail.gmail.com> <5c4e765cd0b92c1385f4bcf271b58122.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <000301ca6f00$821c3410$86549c30$@net> Message-ID: Nice Turkey Day gift from NASA: http://tinyurl.com/yegsjht Bill Clugston bclugston1 at comcast.net http://www.earthskystars.net (Rocketry and Astronomy) From arrsales at cox.net Fri Nov 27 11:23:02 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:23:02 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091127192312930.YQW3094@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com> Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an LEUP. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Sareth Tes Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Well Gary, You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. Ralph > From: glech at aol.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > > I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd never use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry career. > > Happy Thanksgiving, > Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kent Newman > To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > Think group order..... > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've ordered up to > 5 lbs., no problem. > > > > Mark > > > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; arrsales at cox.net; > rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. The > > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > > > > Mike F. > > > > > > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > > > And for > > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner gun > > shop > > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I > > believe Oregon shops are dry. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 11:46:45 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:46:45 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <20091127192312930.YQW3094@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <6C7E40FE8A424D839480D799B0B1B66E@LaptopKrausert> When you order from a place like PowderInc, they require you to sign a release form regarding the intent. You must sign it stating that you're using it for "sport, recreation, or cultural purposes only." They truly mean that being blackpowder firearms in that context, but they do not specifically state it in the release form. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Always Ready Rocketry" To: Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an LEUP. > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > Well Gary, > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would not > have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf > exception > if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is hear say at > the > moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > > Ralph > >> From: glech at aol.com >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. >> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd never > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > career. >> >> Happy Thanksgiving, >> Gary >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kent Newman >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> Think group order..... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've ordered > up to >> 5 lbs., no problem. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > arrsales at cox.net; >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> > >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. > The >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) >> > >> > Mike F. >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >> > >> > And for >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner > gun >> > shop >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But >> I > >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From pasha at kali.com Fri Nov 27 11:30:57 2009 From: pasha at kali.com (Robert Kelley) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:30:57 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <20091127192312930.YQW3094@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com> References: <20091127192312930.YQW3094@hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com> What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an LEUP. > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > Well Gary, > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would not > have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf exception > if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is hear say at the > moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > > Ralph > > >> From: glech at aol.com >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. >> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd never >> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry career. > >> Happy Thanksgiving, >> Gary >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kent Newman >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; >> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> Think group order..... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've ordered >> > up to > >> 5 lbs., no problem. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; >> > arrsales at cox.net; > >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> > >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. >> > The > >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) >> > >> > Mike F. >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >> > >> > And for >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the corner >> > gun > >> > shop >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. But I >> > > >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From arrsales at cox.net Fri Nov 27 12:43:34 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:43:34 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com> Message-ID: <20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com> Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid the whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion pistol and they can buy 4fg. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM To: Always Ready Rocketry Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an LEUP. > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > Well Gary, > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > > Ralph > > >> From: glech at aol.com >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. >> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd >> never >> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry career. > >> Happy Thanksgiving, >> Gary >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kent Newman >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; >> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> Think group order..... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've >> ordered >> > up to > >> 5 lbs., no problem. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; >> > arrsales at cox.net; > >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> > >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun shop. >> > The > >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) >> > >> > Mike F. >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >> > >> > And for >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the >> corner >> > gun > >> > shop >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. >> But I >> > > >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 15:12:28 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:12:28 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Training to upload and create content Message-ID: Hello, If you have photos or content that you'd like to post to the new Northwest Rocketry site, please let me know your availability. I'm developing training material. I'm offering individual training to see how it goes, and better understand where to improve the training. Let me know when you want to talk, and provide me a phone number to reach you. Off list certainly. Cheers, Robert From dmobley at rocketryplanet.com Fri Nov 27 16:14:52 2009 From: dmobley at rocketryplanet.com (Darrell D. Mobley) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:14:52 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com> References: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com> <20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com> Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. They are concerned, however, with how you USE it. If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of BP for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is exempt requiring a LEUP. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid the > whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion > pistol > and they can buy 4fg. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > > What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. > > Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an > LEUP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > Well Gary, > > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf > > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is > > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > > > > Ralph > > > > > >> From: glech at aol.com > >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >> > >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >> never > >> > > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > career. > > > >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >> Gary > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Kent Newman > >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; > >> > > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >> Think group order..... > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've > >> ordered > >> > > up to > > > >> 5 lbs., no problem. > >> > >> > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > >> > > arrsales at cox.net; > > > >> rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > > >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > shop. > >> > > The > > > >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >> > > >> > Mike F. > >> > > >> > > >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >> > > >> > And for > >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the > >> corner > >> > > gun > > > >> > shop > >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >> But I > >> > > > > > >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 16:30:41 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:30:41 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com><20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com> <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com> Message-ID: My AT J350 reload comes with a canister of BP for use with motor eject. The purpose of the BP is not for antique guns. The intended use is known as part of the reload. Is AT regulated? Maybe. But the reload other than national cert level authorization, there is no regulation. While the reload compoents have an intended use. And use of such components are recommended for use only for that purpose. My opinion is that parts are regulated and parts are not. "Small amounts" doesn't really apply here. Either it is or isn't. Everything I've read includes use. But there must be some variance somewhere since BP can be included with a reload. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" To: Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. > They > are concerned, however, with how you USE it. > > If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of > BP > for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in > antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt > from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any > other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. > > There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is > exempt requiring a LEUP. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry >> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid the >> whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion >> pistol >> and they can buy 4fg. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM >> To: Always Ready Rocketry >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? >> >> What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. >> >> Always Ready Rocketry wrote: >> > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an >> LEUP. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes >> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM >> > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> > >> > >> > Well Gary, >> > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would >> > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf >> > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is >> > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. >> > >> > Ralph >> > >> > >> >> From: glech at aol.com >> >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. >> >> >> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd >> >> never >> >> >> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry >> career. >> > >> >> Happy Thanksgiving, >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Kent Newman >> >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; >> >> >> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> >> >> Think group order..... >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > >> >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM >> >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; >> >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> >> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've >> >> ordered >> >> >> > up to >> > >> >> 5 lbs., no problem. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com >> >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 >> >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; >> >> >> > arrsales at cox.net; >> > >> >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> > >> >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun >> shop. >> >> >> > The >> > >> >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) >> >> > >> >> > Mike F. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >> >> > >> >> > And for >> >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the >> >> corner >> >> >> > gun >> > >> >> > shop >> >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. >> >> But I >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From dmobley at rocketryplanet.com Fri Nov 27 17:18:44 2009 From: dmobley at rocketryplanet.com (Darrell D. Mobley) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:18:44 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: References: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com><20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com> <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com> Message-ID: <024601ca6fc8$bba9cc10$32fd6430$@com> AeroTech has an ATF license. That is how they can put BP in your J350 reload kit. The discussion was about buying BP, not reloads. > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Krausert [mailto:lawndart.robert at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:31 PM > To: Darrell D. Mobley; rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > My AT J350 reload comes with a canister of BP for use with motor eject. > The > purpose of the BP is not for antique guns. The intended use is known as > part > of the reload. Is AT regulated? Maybe. But the reload other than national > cert level authorization, there is no regulation. > > While the reload compoents have an intended use. And use of such > components > are recommended for use only for that purpose. > > My opinion is that parts are regulated and parts are not. "Small amounts" > doesn't really apply here. Either it is or isn't. Everything I've read > includes use. But there must be some variance somewhere since BP can be > included with a reload. > > Cheers, > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 4:14 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. > > They > > are concerned, however, with how you USE it. > > > > If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of > > BP > > for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in > > antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are > exempt > > from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for > any > > other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. > > > > There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what > is > > exempt requiring a LEUP. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >> On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > >> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid > the > >> whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion > >> pistol > >> and they can buy 4fg. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] > >> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > >> To: Always Ready Rocketry > >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >> What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > >> > >> What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. > >> > >> Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > >> > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an > >> LEUP. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >> > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > >> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > >> > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > > >> > > >> > Well Gary, > >> > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > >> > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf > >> > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is > >> > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > >> > > >> > Ralph > >> > > >> > > >> >> From: glech at aol.com > >> >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> >> > >> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >> >> > >> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >> >> never > >> >> > >> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > >> career. > >> > > >> >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >> >> Gary > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Kent Newman > >> >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com > ; > >> >> > >> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Think group order..... > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> >> > >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >> > > >> >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >> >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > >> >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've > >> >> ordered > >> >> > >> > up to > >> > > >> >> 5 lbs., no problem. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Mark > >> >> > >> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >> >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >> >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > >> >> > >> > arrsales at cox.net; > >> > > >> >> rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> >> > > >> >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > >> shop. > >> >> > >> > The > >> > > >> >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >> >> > > >> >> > Mike F. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard > Time, > >> >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >> >> > > >> >> > And for > >> >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the > >> >> corner > >> >> > >> > gun > >> > > >> >> > shop > >> >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >> >> But I > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Rockets mailing list > >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockets mailing list > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockets mailing list > >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From arrsales at cox.net Fri Nov 27 17:39:09 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:39:09 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com> Message-ID: <20091128013920554.EDCL18441@hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com> Yes Darrell is correct. Enforcement of that is difficult and is a waste of gov't resources, but yes he is right. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Darrell D. Mobley Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:15 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. They are concerned, however, with how you USE it. If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of BP for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is exempt requiring a LEUP. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid > the whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a > percussion pistol and they can buy 4fg. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > > What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. > > Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o > > an > LEUP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > Well Gary, > > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a > > batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but > > that is hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > > > > Ralph > > > > > >> From: glech at aol.com > >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >> > >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >> never > >> > > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > career. > > > >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >> Gary > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Kent Newman > >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com > >> ; > >> > > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >> Think group order..... > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've > >> ordered > >> > > up to > > > >> 5 lbs., no problem. > >> > >> > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > >> > > arrsales at cox.net; > > > >> rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > > >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > shop. > >> > > The > > > >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >> > > >> > Mike F. > >> > > >> > > >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >> > > >> > And for > >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the > >> corner > >> > > gun > > > >> > shop > >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >> But I > >> > > > > > >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From bigredbee at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 17:50:36 2009 From: bigredbee at gmail.com (Greg Clark) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:50:36 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <20091128013920554.EDCL18441@hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com> References: <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com> <20091128013920554.EDCL18441@hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: But On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > Yes Darrell is correct. Enforcement of that is difficult and is a waste > of > gov't resources, but yes he is right. > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Darrell D. Mobley > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:15 PM > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. They > are concerned, however, with how you USE it. > > If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of BP > for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in > antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt > from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any > other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. > > There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is > exempt requiring a LEUP. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid > > the whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a > > percussion pistol and they can buy 4fg. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > > To: Always Ready Rocketry > > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > > > > What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. > > > > Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > > > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o > > > an > > LEUP. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > > > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > > > > Well Gary, > > > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > > > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a > > > batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but > > > that is hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > > > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > >> From: glech at aol.com > > >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > >> > > >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > > >> > > >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > > >> never > > >> > > > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > > career. > > > > > >> Happy Thanksgiving, > > >> Gary > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: Kent Newman > > >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com > > >> ; > > >> > > > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > >> > > >> > > >> Think group order..... > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > >> > > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > > > >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > > >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > > >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > >> > > >> > > >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've > > >> ordered > > >> > > > up to > > > > > >> 5 lbs., no problem. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Mark > > >> > > >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > > >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > > >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > > >> > > > arrsales at cox.net; > > > > > >> rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > >> > > > >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > > shop. > > >> > > > The > > > > > >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > > >> > > > >> > Mike F. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > > >> > > > >> > And for > > >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the > > >> corner > > >> > > > gun > > > > > >> > shop > > >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > > >> But I > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rockets mailing list > > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockets mailing list > > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From vonrang at yahoo.com Fri Nov 27 18:39:27 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:39:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <20091128013920554.EDCL18441@hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <202925.88912.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I guess it only becomes an issue if an individual ATF agent wants to make it?an issue at any given time. ? Go to Pyrodex, take the BP out of the equation and it remains a non-issue. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/27/09, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 7:39 PM Yes Darrell is correct.? Enforcement of that is difficult and is a waste of gov't resources, but yes he is right. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Darrell D. Mobley Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:15 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Buying BP is not the issue.? ATF isn't concerned about you buying it.? They are concerned, however, with how you USE it. If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of BP for USE in the guns.? Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in antique firearms.? If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated.? There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is exempt requiring a LEUP. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >? Nobody has any way of verifying any of that.? Just shows how stupid > the whole thing is.? All someone has to do is say they have a > percussion pistol and they can buy 4fg. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > > What if you have plans to make one?? Seems that would be the same. > > Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > >? Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o > > an > LEUP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > Well Gary, > >? ? You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a > > batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but > > that is hear say at the moment I don't? KNOW that to be a reality. > > > > Ralph > > > > > >> From: glech at aol.com > >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >> > >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >> never > >> > > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > career. > > > >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >> Gary > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>???From: Kent Newman > >>???To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com > >> ; > >> > > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > >>???Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >>???Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >>???Think group order..... > >> > >>???-----Original Message----- > >>???From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > >>???On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >>???Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >>???To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > >>???arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>???Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >>???www.powderinc? All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've > >> ordered > >> > > up to > > > >>???5 lbs., no problem. > >> > >> > >> > >>???Mark > >> > >>???> From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >>???> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >>???> To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > >> > > arrsales at cox.net; > > > >>???rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>???> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>???> > >>???> Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > shop. > >> > > The > > > >>???> owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >>???> > >>???> Mike F. > >>???> > >>???> > >>???> In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > >>???> lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >>???> > >>???> And for > >>???> those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the > >> corner > >> > > gun > > > >>???> shop > >>???> and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >> But I > >> > > > > > >>???> believe Oregon shops are dry. > >>???> > >>???> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From Mfreptiles at aol.com Fri Nov 27 18:44:38 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:44:38 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Message-ID: Recently certain ATF agents have been separating the "recreational use" from the antique firearm part. It could be interpreted either way depending on how it is read and emphasis placed. Mike F. In a message dated 11/27/2009 6:40:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, vonrang at yahoo.com writes: I guess it only becomes an issue if an individual ATF agent wants to make it an issue at any given time. From bar0051 at homenetnw.net Fri Nov 27 18:58:08 2009 From: bar0051 at homenetnw.net (Bryon Schopp) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:58:08 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? References: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com><20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com> <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com> Message-ID: That is not exactly correct here in the State of Washington. Here in Washington, you need a licensed magazine to store more than 5 pounds of BP. My state permits cost me $120 this year, plus the fuss of getting fingerprinted every year. It is also required to store AP motors. I hope that someday the state regulators will realize what a waste of everyone's resources it is to require all this for rocketry. The really crazy part is that there is no 62.5 gram exception in the state regs but they do not require hobby stores or Wal-mart to have a mag. Bryon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" To: Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. > They > are concerned, however, with how you USE it. > > If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of > BP > for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in > antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt > from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any > other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. > > There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is > exempt requiring a LEUP. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry >> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid the >> whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion >> pistol >> and they can buy 4fg. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM >> To: Always Ready Rocketry >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? >> >> What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. >> >> Always Ready Rocketry wrote: >> > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an >> LEUP. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes >> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM >> > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> > >> > >> > Well Gary, >> > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would >> > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf >> > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is >> > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. >> > >> > Ralph >> > >> > >> >> From: glech at aol.com >> >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. >> >> >> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd >> >> never >> >> >> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry >> career. >> > >> >> Happy Thanksgiving, >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Kent Newman >> >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; >> >> >> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> >> >> Think group order..... >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > >> >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM >> >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; >> >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> >> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've >> >> ordered >> >> >> > up to >> > >> >> 5 lbs., no problem. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com >> >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 >> >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; >> >> >> > arrsales at cox.net; >> > >> >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> > >> >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun >> shop. >> >> >> > The >> > >> >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) >> >> > >> >> > Mike F. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >> >> > >> >> > And for >> >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the >> >> corner >> >> >> > gun >> > >> >> > shop >> >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. >> >> But I >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From vonrang at yahoo.com Fri Nov 27 19:01:35 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:01:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <107560.72336.qm@web52208.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://www.rsmith.org.uk/frasier/multimedia/pointstory.wav Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/27/09, Mfreptiles at aol.com wrote: From: Mfreptiles at aol.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: vonrang at yahoo.com, rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:44 PM Recently certain ATF agents have been separating the "recreational use" from the antique firearm part.? It could be interpreted either way depending on how it is read and emphasis placed. ? Mike F. ? In a message dated 11/27/2009 6:40:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, vonrang at yahoo.com writes: I guess it only becomes an issue if an individual ATF agent wants to make it?an issue at any given time. From sb at berfield.com Fri Nov 27 20:42:22 2009 From: sb at berfield.com (Scott Berfield) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:42:22 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Message-ID: <200911280442.nAS4gOGq019548@omr16.networksolutionsemail.com> Good thing I always burn all my AP at launches and never keep any around.. -----Original Message----- From: Bryon Schopp Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:58 PM To: Darrell D. Mobley ; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? That is not exactly correct here in the State of Washington. Here in Washington, you need a licensed magazine to store more than 5 pounds of BP. My state permits cost me $120 this year, plus the fuss of getting fingerprinted every year. It is also required to store AP motors. I hope that someday the state regulators will realize what a waste of everyone's resources it is to require all this for rocketry. The really crazy part is that there is no 62.5 gram exception in the state regs but they do not require hobby stores or Wal-mart to have a mag. Bryon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell D. Mobley" To: Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. > They > are concerned, however, with how you USE it. > > If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of > BP > for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in > antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt > from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any > other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. > > There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is > exempt requiring a LEUP. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry >> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid the >> whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion >> pistol >> and they can buy 4fg. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM >> To: Always Ready Rocketry >> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? >> >> What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. >> >> Always Ready Rocketry wrote: >> > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an >> LEUP. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes >> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM >> > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> > >> > >> > Well Gary, >> > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would >> > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf >> > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is >> > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. >> > >> > Ralph >> > >> > >> >> From: glech at aol.com >> >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. >> >> >> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd >> >> never >> >> >> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry >> career. >> > >> >> Happy Thanksgiving, >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Kent Newman >> >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; >> >> >> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> >> >> Think group order..... >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >> >> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> > >> >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM >> >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; >> >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> >> >> >> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've >> >> ordered >> >> >> > up to >> > >> >> 5 lbs., no problem. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com >> >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 >> >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; >> >> >> > arrsales at cox.net; >> > >> >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> > >> >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun >> shop. >> >> >> > The >> > >> >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) >> >> > >> >> > Mike F. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >> >> > >> >> > And for >> >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the >> >> corner >> >> >> > gun >> > >> >> > shop >> >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. >> >> But I >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 27 22:55:29 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:55:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7e3d8538f2614b245c9ae799ba221fb2.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Just like a kazillion international treaties: "We agree on the wording but not necessarily the meaning." Which doesn't buy you anything, really. +McG+ > Recently certain ATF agents have been separating the "recreational use" > from the antique firearm part. It could be interpreted either way > depending > on how it is read and emphasis placed. > > Mike F. > > > In a message dated 11/27/2009 6:40:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > vonrang at yahoo.com writes: > > I guess it only becomes an issue if an individual ATF agent wants to make > it an issue at any given time. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Fri Nov 27 23:00:25 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:00:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: References: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com><20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com> <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com> Message-ID: <7ecc98b54cb06c20c37069264f478a9c.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> I was about to ask about whether or not L&I had changed their tune yet. Oh well. +McG+ > That is not exactly correct here in the State of Washington. Here in > Washington, you need a licensed magazine to store more than 5 pounds of > BP. > My state permits cost me $120 this year, plus the fuss of getting > fingerprinted every year. It is also required to store AP motors. I hope > that someday the state regulators will realize what a waste of everyone's > resources it is to require all this for rocketry. The really crazy part > is > that there is no 62.5 gram exception in the state regs but they do not > require hobby stores or Wal-mart to have a mag. > > Bryon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 4:14 PM > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > >> Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. >> They >> are concerned, however, with how you USE it. >> >> If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of >> BP >> for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in >> antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are >> exempt >> from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for >> any >> other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. >> >> There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what >> is >> exempt requiring a LEUP. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry >>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM >>> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> >>> Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid >>> the >>> whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion >>> pistol >>> and they can buy 4fg. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] >>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM >>> To: Always Ready Rocketry >>> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> >>> >>> What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? >>> >>> What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. >>> >>> Always Ready Rocketry wrote: >>> > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an >>> LEUP. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM >>> > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> > >>> > >>> > Well Gary, >>> > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would >>> > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf >>> > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is >>> > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. >>> > >>> > Ralph >>> > >>> > >>> >> From: glech at aol.com >>> >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> >> >>> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. >>> >> >>> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd >>> >> never >>> >> >>> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry >>> career. >>> > >>> >> Happy Thanksgiving, >>> >> Gary >>> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> From: Kent Newman >>> >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com >>> ; >>> >> >>> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > >>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Think group order..... >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >>> >> >>> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >>> > >>> >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons >>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM >>> >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; >>> >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've >>> >> ordered >>> >> >>> > up to >>> > >>> >> 5 lbs., no problem. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Mark >>> >> >>> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com >>> >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 >>> >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; >>> >> >>> > arrsales at cox.net; >>> > >>> >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >>> >> > >>> >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun >>> shop. >>> >> >>> > The >>> > >>> >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) >>> >> > >>> >> > Mike F. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard >>> Time, >>> >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >>> >> > >>> >> > And for >>> >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the >>> >> corner >>> >> >>> > gun >>> > >>> >> > shop >>> >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. >>> >> But I >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Rockets mailing list >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Rockets mailing list >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Rockets mailing list >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From carl20320 at msn.com Sat Nov 28 00:42:50 2009 From: carl20320 at msn.com (Carl Degner) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:42:50 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <7ecc98b54cb06c20c37069264f478a9c.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com><20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com>, <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com>, , <7ecc98b54cb06c20c37069264f478a9c.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: Right now, I don't think it is L&I. They have to enforce the laws the legislature have put in place. In talking with Mason Reiter and Mark Aguire, they both with they did not have to deal with this. > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:00:25 -0800 > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > To: bar0051 at homenetnw.net > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > I was about to ask about whether or not L&I had changed their tune yet. > Oh well. > +McG+ > > > > That is not exactly correct here in the State of Washington. Here in > > Washington, you need a licensed magazine to store more than 5 pounds of > > BP. > > My state permits cost me $120 this year, plus the fuss of getting > > fingerprinted every year. It is also required to store AP motors. I hope > > that someday the state regulators will realize what a waste of everyone's > > resources it is to require all this for rocketry. The really crazy part > > is > > that there is no 62.5 gram exception in the state regs but they do not > > require hobby stores or Wal-mart to have a mag. > > > > Bryon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Darrell D. Mobley" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 4:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > >> Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. > >> They > >> are concerned, however, with how you USE it. > >> > >> If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of > >> BP > >> for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in > >> antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are > >> exempt > >> from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for > >> any > >> other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. > >> > >> There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what > >> is > >> exempt requiring a LEUP. > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >>> On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > >>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > >>> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>> > >>> Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid > >>> the > >>> whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion > >>> pistol > >>> and they can buy 4fg. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] > >>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > >>> To: Always Ready Rocketry > >>> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>> > >>> > >>> What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > >>> > >>> What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. > >>> > >>> Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > >>> > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o an > >>> LEUP. > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > >>> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >>> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >>> > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > >>> > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Well Gary, > >>> > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > >>> > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a batf > >>> > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that is > >>> > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > >>> > > >>> > Ralph > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> From: glech at aol.com > >>> >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>> >> > >>> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >>> >> > >>> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >>> >> never > >>> >> > >>> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > >>> career. > >>> > > >>> >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >>> >> Gary > >>> >> > >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> >> From: Kent Newman > >>> >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com > >>> ; > >>> >> > >>> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> > > >>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Think group order..... > >>> >> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >>> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> > >>> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > >>> > > >>> >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >>> >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > >>> >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've > >>> >> ordered > >>> >> > >>> > up to > >>> > > >>> >> 5 lbs., no problem. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Mark > >>> >> > >>> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >>> >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >>> >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > >>> >> > >>> > arrsales at cox.net; > >>> > > >>> >> rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>> >> > > >>> >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > >>> shop. > >>> >> > >>> > The > >>> > > >>> >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >>> >> > > >>> >> > Mike F. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard > >>> Time, > >>> >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >>> >> > > >>> >> > And for > >>> >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the > >>> >> corner > >>> >> > >>> > gun > >>> > > >>> >> > shop > >>> >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >>> >> But I > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> Rockets mailing list > >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Rockets mailing list > >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Rockets mailing list > >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Rockets mailing list > >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From arrsales at cox.net Sat Nov 28 05:00:43 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 08:00:43 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <202925.88912.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091128130054747.VLWN12202@hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com> What I have heard is that unfortunately Pyrodex does not work as a direct replacement for BP. There's a little bit of a trick to it as it must be somewhat contained to build up some pressure for it to work. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Sam Grado Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 9:39 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? I guess it only becomes an issue if an individual ATF agent wants to make it?an issue at any given time. ? Go to Pyrodex, take the BP out of the equation and it remains a non-issue. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/27/09, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 7:39 PM Yes Darrell is correct.? Enforcement of that is difficult and is a waste of gov't resources, but yes he is right. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Darrell D. Mobley Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:15 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Buying BP is not the issue.? ATF isn't concerned about you buying it.? They are concerned, however, with how you USE it. If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of BP for USE in the guns.? Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in antique firearms.? If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated.? There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is exempt requiring a LEUP. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >? Nobody has any way of verifying any of that.? Just shows how stupid >the whole thing is.? All someone has to do is say they have a >percussion pistol and they can buy 4fg. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > > What if you have plans to make one?? Seems that would be the same. > > Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > >? Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o > >an > LEUP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > Well Gary, > >? ? You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > >not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a > >batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but > >that is hear say at the moment I don't? KNOW that to be a reality. > > > > Ralph > > > > > >> From: glech at aol.com > >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >> > >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >> never > >> > > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > career. > > > >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >> Gary > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>???From: Kent Newman > >>???To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com > >>; > >> > > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > >>???Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >>???Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >>???Think group order..... > >> > >>???-----Original Message----- > >>???From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > >>???On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >>???Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >>???To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > >>???arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>???Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >>???www.powderinc? All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've > >>ordered > >> > > up to > > > >>???5 lbs., no problem. > >> > >> > >> > >>???Mark > >> > >>???> From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >>???> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >>???> To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > >> > > arrsales at cox.net; > > > >>???rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>???> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>???> > >>???> Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > shop. > >> > > The > > > >>???> owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >>???> > >>???> Mike F. > >>???> > >>???> > >>???> In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard > >>Time, > >>???> lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >>???> > >>???> And for > >>???> those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the > >>corner > >> > > gun > > > >>???> shop > >>???> and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >> But I > >> > > > > > >>???> believe Oregon shops are dry. > >>???> > >>???> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From Mfreptiles at aol.com Sat Nov 28 08:41:00 2009 From: Mfreptiles at aol.com (Mfreptiles at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:41:00 EST Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Message-ID: I guess that depends on how good your attorney is. :) Mike F. In a message dated 11/27/2009 10:56:15 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com writes: Just like a kazillion international treaties: "We agree on the wording but not necessarily the meaning." Which doesn't buy you anything, really. From vonrang at yahoo.com Sat Nov 28 08:44:05 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 08:44:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <20091128130054747.VLWN12202@hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <45795.26732.qm@web52207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Like contained in surgical drain tubing, zip ties & nomex wrapper? ? Setup this way, it work perfectly fine for deployment charges. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:00 AM What I have heard is that unfortunately Pyrodex does not work as a direct replacement for BP. There's a little bit of a trick to it as it must be somewhat contained to build up some pressure for it to work. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Sam Grado Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 9:39 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? I guess it only becomes an issue if an individual ATF agent wants to make it?an issue at any given time. ? Go to Pyrodex, take the BP out of the equation and it remains a non-issue. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/27/09, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 7:39 PM Yes Darrell is correct.? Enforcement of that is difficult and is a waste of gov't resources, but yes he is right. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of Darrell D. Mobley Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:15 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Buying BP is not the issue.? ATF isn't concerned about you buying it.? They are concerned, however, with how you USE it. If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of BP for USE in the guns.? Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in antique firearms.? If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated.? There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is exempt requiring a LEUP. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >? Nobody has any way of verifying any of that.? Just shows how stupid? >the whole thing is.? All someone has to do is say they have a? >percussion pistol and they can buy 4fg. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > > What if you have plans to make one?? Seems that would be the same. > > Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > >? Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o? > >an > LEUP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > Well Gary, > >? ? You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would? > >not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a? > >batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but? > >that is hear say at the moment I don't? KNOW that to be a reality. > > > > Ralph > > > > > >> From: glech at aol.com > >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >> > >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >> never > >> > > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > career. > > > >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >> Gary > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>???From: Kent Newman > >>???To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com? > >>; > >> > > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > >>???Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >>???Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >>???Think group order..... > >> > >>???-----Original Message----- > >>???From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > > > >>???On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >>???Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >>???To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; > >>???arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>???Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >>???www.powderinc? All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've? > >>ordered > >> > > up to > > > >>???5 lbs., no problem. > >> > >> > >> > >>???Mark > >> > >>???> From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >>???> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >>???> To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; > >> > > arrsales at cox.net; > > > >>???rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>???> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>???> > >>???> Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > shop. > >> > > The > > > >>???> owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >>???> > >>???> Mike F. > >>???> > >>???> > >>???> In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard > >>Time, > >>???> lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >>???> > >>???> And for > >>???> those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the? > >>corner > >> > > gun > > > >>???> shop > >>???> and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >> But I > >> > > > > > >>???> believe Oregon shops are dry. > >>???> > >>???> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From arrsales at cox.net Sat Nov 28 08:57:31 2009 From: arrsales at cox.net (Always Ready Rocketry) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:57:31 -0500 Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: <45795.26732.qm@web52207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091128165742418.LZZH18441@hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com> Cool! Good to know! I'll have to try that. :) _____ From: Sam Grado [mailto:vonrang at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 11:44 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com; Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Like contained in surgical drain tubing, zip ties & nomex wrapper? Setup this way, it work perfectly fine for deployment charges. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:00 AM What I have heard is that unfortunately Pyrodex does not work as a direct replacement for BP. There's a little bit of a trick to it as it must be somewhat contained to build up some pressure for it to work. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] On Behalf Of Sam Grado Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 9:39 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? I guess it only becomes an issue if an individual ATF agent wants to make it an issue at any given time. Go to Pyrodex, take the BP out of the equation and it remains a non-issue. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/27/09, Always Ready Rocketry > wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 7:39 PM Yes Darrell is correct. Enforcement of that is difficult and is a waste of gov't resources, but yes he is right. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] On Behalf Of Darrell D. Mobley Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:15 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. They are concerned, however, with how you USE it. If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of BP for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is exempt requiring a LEUP. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] > On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid >the whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a >percussion pistol and they can buy 4fg. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com ] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > > What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. > > Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o > >an > LEUP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] > > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > > To: glech at aol.com ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > Well Gary, > > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would > >not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a > >batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but > >that is hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. > > > > Ralph > > > > > >> From: glech at aol.com > >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >> > >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >> never > >> > > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > career. > > > >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >> Gary > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Kent Newman > >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com > >>; > >> > > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >> Think group order..... > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] > > > >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; Bryon Schopp; > >> arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've > >>ordered > >> > > up to > > > >> 5 lbs., no problem. > >> > >> > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; bar0051 at homenetnw.net ; > >> > > arrsales at cox.net ; > > > >> rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > > >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > shop. > >> > > The > > > >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >> > > >> > Mike F. > >> > > >> > > >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard > >>Time, > >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >> > > >> > And for > >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the > >>corner > >> > > gun > > > >> > shop > >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >> But I > >> > > > > > >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From jhadv at pacifier.com Sat Nov 28 08:50:06 2009 From: jhadv at pacifier.com (Paul Bogdanich) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 08:50:06 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 109 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20091128084716.03736008@mail.iinet.com> >"Washington, you need a licensed magazine to store more than 5 pounds of >BP. My state permits cost me $120 this year." "I hope that someday the >state regulators will realize what a waste of everyone's resources it is >to require all this for rocketry. The really crazy part is that there is >no 62.5 gram exception in the state regs but they do not require hobby >stores or Wal-mart to have a mag." If you stop thinking about the issue in terms of safety and appropriateness and think of it in terms of revenue generation and impeding commerce for the larger stores it all makes perfect sense. A tax by any other name. From vonrang at yahoo.com Sat Nov 28 10:11:00 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:11:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 109 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20091128084716.03736008@mail.iinet.com> Message-ID: <896039.59907.qm@web52205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, that has alway been the heart of everything this hobby has encountered since the turn of the century. The desire to regulate the hobby was based in nothing more than the desire to obtain revenue. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Paul Bogdanich wrote: From: Paul Bogdanich Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Rockets Digest, Vol 22, Issue 109 To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 10:50 AM > "Washington, you need a licensed magazine to store more than 5 pounds of BP.? My state permits cost me $120 this year."? "I hope that someday the state regulators will realize what a waste of everyone's resources it is to require all this for rocketry.? The really crazy part is that there is no 62.5 gram exception in the state regs but they do not require hobby stores or Wal-mart to have a mag." If you stop thinking about the issue in terms of safety and appropriateness and think of it in terms of revenue generation and impeding commerce for the larger stores it all makes perfect sense.? A tax by any other name. _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From vonrang at yahoo.com Sat Nov 28 10:23:49 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:23:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Message-ID: <758397.83690.qm@web52203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well credit goes where credit is due. ? I first saw Steve Cutonilli use this technique?with BP in his?Performance Rocketry?Competitor 4.rocket. ? The Mex wrapper was just a small square of fabric wrapped around the zip tied bundle of BP filled rubber tubing and e-match. ? Once wrapped, Steve again zip tied the ends and middle of the wrapped charge. ? I started using Pyrodex this way when I had trouble obtaining BP. It worked just as well as BP when setup this way. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 10:57 AM Cool! Good to know! I'll have to try that. :)? ? _____? From: Sam Grado [mailto:vonrang at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 11:44 AM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com; Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Like contained in surgical drain tubing, zip ties & nomex wrapper? Setup this way, it work perfectly fine for deployment charges. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Always Ready Rocketry wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:00 AM What I have heard is that unfortunately Pyrodex does not work as a direct replacement for BP. There's a little bit of a trick to it as it must be somewhat contained to build up some pressure for it to work. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] On Behalf Of Sam Grado Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 9:39 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? I guess it only becomes an issue if an individual ATF agent wants to make it an issue at any given time. Go to Pyrodex, take the BP out of the equation and it remains a non-issue. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Fri, 11/27/09, Always Ready Rocketry > wrote: From: Always Ready Rocketry > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 7:39 PM Yes Darrell is correct.? Enforcement of that is difficult and is a waste of gov't resources, but yes he is right. -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] On Behalf Of Darrell D. Mobley Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:15 PM To: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? Buying BP is not the issue.? ATF isn't concerned about you buying it.? They are concerned, however, with how you USE it. If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds of BP for USE in the guns.? Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE in antique firearms.? If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are exempt from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for any other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated.? There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than what is exempt requiring a LEUP. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] > On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >? Nobody has any way of verifying any of that.? Just shows how stupid? >the whole thing is.? All someone has to do is say they have a? >percussion pistol and they can buy 4fg. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com ] > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM > To: Always Ready Rocketry > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or pistol? > > What if you have plans to make one?? Seems that would be the same. > > Always Ready Rocketry wrote: > >? Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o? > >an > LEUP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] > > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM > > To: glech at aol.com ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > > > > > > Well Gary, > >? ? You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would? > >not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a? > >batf exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but? > >that is hear say at the moment I don't? KNOW that to be a reality. > > > > Ralph > > > > > >> From: glech at aol.com > >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 > >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. > >> > >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. I'd > >> never > >> > > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my rocketry > career. > > > >> Happy Thanksgiving, > >> Gary > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>???From: Kent Newman > >>???To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ? ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ??? > >>; > >> > > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ? ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > > > >>???Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM > >>???Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >>???Think group order..... > >> > >>???-----Original Message----- > >>???From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com > >> > > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] > > > >>???On Behalf Of Mark Lyons > >>???Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM > >>???To: mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; Bryon Schopp; > >>???arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>???Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >> > >> > >>???www.powderinc? All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've? > >>ordered > >> > > up to > > > >>???5 lbs., no problem. > >> > >> > >> > >>???Mark > >> > >>???> From: Mfreptiles at aol.com > >>???> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 > >>???> To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com ; bar0051 at homenetnw.net ; > >> > > arrsales at cox.net ; > > > >>???rockets at rocketsnw.com > >>???> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? > >>???> > >>???> Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun > shop. > >> > > The > > > >>???> owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) > >>???> > >>???> Mike F. > >>???> > >>???> > >>???> In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard > >>Time, > >>???> lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: > >>???> > >>???> And for > >>???> those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the? > >>corner > >> > > gun > > > >>???> shop > >>???> and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem might. > >> But I > >> > > > > > >>???> believe Oregon shops are dry. > >>???> > >>???> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockets mailing list > >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com > >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets ? From rnech at yahoo.com Sat Nov 28 13:26:38 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:26:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] This day in space history Message-ID: <637885.90602.qm@web111407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> On this day in 1964, the U.S. spacecraft Mariner 4 launched, using the Atlas-Agena D launch vehicle, on a flyby mission of Mars, providing the first ever close-up images of another planet. Many credit Mariner 4 images/data with altering the course of science fiction, shifting the home of intelligent aliens from Mars (or other planets in our solar system) to planets circling distant stars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariner_4 From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 13:41:15 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:41:15 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] This day in space history References: <637885.90602.qm@web111407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7BAA21BE6C8741488F1BC7E086EE63DD@LaptopKrausert> I remember that day very well. My family was all huddled around the computer watching it live on NASA TV.com. Also have the complete interview between the Vice President and Walter Cronkite recorded live on my Blackberry. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Nech" To: "NW Rocketry" Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 1:26 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] This day in space history > On this day in 1964, the U.S. spacecraft Mariner 4 launched, using the > Atlas-Agena D launch vehicle, on a flyby mission of Mars, providing the > first ever close-up images of another planet. Many credit Mariner 4 > images/data with altering the course of science fiction, shifting the home > of intelligent aliens from Mars (or other planets in our solar system) to > planets circling distant stars. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariner_4 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From vonrang at yahoo.com Sat Nov 28 14:32:43 2009 From: vonrang at yahoo.com (Sam Grado) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:32:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] This day in space history In-Reply-To: <7BAA21BE6C8741488F1BC7E086EE63DD@LaptopKrausert> Message-ID: <583923.96811.qm@web52201.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Fortunately back then we had the Radeon 9700 video chipsets to watch the launch of the Mariner in digital color. Sam Grado TRA L2 "If you're going to build it, build it from scratch"! sales at pvconly.com http://www.pvconly.com http://www.sugarshot.org/bios/sgrado.html http://groups.google.com/group/PVC-Motor-Rockets --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Robert Krausert wrote: From: Robert Krausert Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] This day in space history To: "Robert Nech" , "NW Rocketry" Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 3:41 PM I remember that day very well. My family was all huddled around the computer watching it live on NASA TV.com. Also have the complete interview? between the Vice President and Walter Cronkite recorded live on my Blackberry. Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Nech" To: "NW Rocketry" Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 1:26 PM Subject: [RocketsNW] This day in space history > On this day in 1964, the U.S. spacecraft Mariner 4 launched, using the Atlas-Agena D launch vehicle, on a flyby mission of Mars, providing the first ever close-up images of another planet. Many credit Mariner 4 images/data with altering the course of science fiction, shifting the home of intelligent aliens from Mars (or other planets in our solar system) to planets circling distant stars. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariner_4 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From rnech at yahoo.com Sat Nov 28 14:57:34 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:57:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Nasa asks for help building robotic rocket-plane spacecraft to explore Mars Message-ID: <408369.43195.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> (Let's put the TARC winners on this and they'll create something on-time and under budget.) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/6654023/Nasa-proposes-robotic-rocket-plane-to-explore-Mars.html Nasa proposes robotic rocket-plane to explore Mars Nasa is proposing to build a robotic rocket-plane to explore Mars from the air, and has advertised for help building it. By Tom Chivers Published: 4:28PM GMT 25 Nov 2009 (excerpt) The Aerial Regional-scale Environmental Surveyor (Ares), around the size of a small plane, will be folded into a rocket and launched to the red planet. It would be the first aircraft ever to fly over another world. While the idea was tabled several years ago, with suggestions it could even have launched by 2007, no progress has so far been made. However, now Nasa has issued a ?teaming opportunity?, offering private companies and designers the chance to help create the craft. The team behind the concept hope that it will be accepted as one of the space agency?s ?Discovery? missions, aimed at swiftly and (relatively) inexpensively exploring other worlds in our solar system. From appusher at q.com Sat Nov 28 17:51:11 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:51:11 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Nasa asks for help building robotic rocket-plane spacecraft to explore Mars In-Reply-To: <408369.43195.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <408369.43195.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The rocket plane article is interesting and the TARC Teams could probably do it ahead of time and under budget. The associated pictures of the ice flows from space were extraordinary!!!! Bill EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:57:34 -0800 > From: rnech at yahoo.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Nasa asks for help building robotic rocket-plane spacecraft to explore Mars > > (Let's put the TARC winners on this and they'll create something on-time and under budget.) > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/6654023/Nasa-proposes-robotic-rocket-plane-to-explore-Mars.html > > Nasa proposes robotic rocket-plane to explore Mars > Nasa is proposing to build a robotic rocket-plane to explore Mars from the air, and has advertised for help building it. > > By Tom Chivers > Published: 4:28PM GMT 25 Nov 2009 > > (excerpt) > The Aerial Regional-scale Environmental Surveyor (Ares), around the size of a small plane, will be folded into a rocket and launched to the red planet. It would be the first aircraft ever to fly over another world. > > While the idea was tabled several years ago, with suggestions it could even have launched by 2007, no progress has so far been made. > > However, now Nasa has issued a ?teaming opportunity?, offering private companies and designers the chance to help create the craft. The team behind the concept hope that it will be accepted as one of the space agency?s ?Discovery? missions, aimed at swiftly and (relatively) inexpensively exploring other worlds in our solar system. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From appusher at q.com Sat Nov 28 20:01:03 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:01:03 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Peter Shurke - Ruler of TARC Ingraham Message-ID: Give me a call 206.335.0196 OR ping me off list Bill at PSP EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me From pmschurke at seattleschools.org Sat Nov 28 22:31:53 2009 From: pmschurke at seattleschools.org (Schurke, Peter) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:31:53 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Nasa asks for help building roboticrocket-plane spacecraft to explore Mars References: <408369.43195.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <844C3B8FA4FAED47AE3DAD6CD5EAF6A10B30035F@CNOCEX04.seattleschools.org> We're already designing rockets for NASA...what's one more project.... Peter Schurke Science and Engineering Teacher, Lead Advisor Ingraham Aerospace Sciences Academy Ingraham High School 1819 N 135th St. Seattle, WA 98133 ________________________________ From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com on behalf of Bill Munds Sent: Sat 11/28/2009 5:51 PM To: Robert Nech; rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Nasa asks for help building roboticrocket-plane spacecraft to explore Mars The rocket plane article is interesting and the TARC Teams could probably do it ahead of time and under budget. The associated pictures of the ice flows from space were extraordinary!!!! Bill EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:57:34 -0800 > From: rnech at yahoo.com > To: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: [RocketsNW] Nasa asks for help building robotic rocket-plane spacecraft to explore Mars > > (Let's put the TARC winners on this and they'll create something on-time and under budget.) > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/6654023/Nasa-proposes-robotic-rocket-plane-to-explore-Mars.html > > Nasa proposes robotic rocket-plane to explore Mars > Nasa is proposing to build a robotic rocket-plane to explore Mars from the air, and has advertised for help building it. > > By Tom Chivers > Published: 4:28PM GMT 25 Nov 2009 > > (excerpt) > The Aerial Regional-scale Environmental Surveyor (Ares), around the size of a small plane, will be folded into a rocket and launched to the red planet. It would be the first aircraft ever to fly over another world. > > While the idea was tabled several years ago, with suggestions it could even have launched by 2007, no progress has so far been made. > > However, now Nasa has issued a "teaming opportunity", offering private companies and designers the chance to help create the craft. The team behind the concept hope that it will be accepted as one of the space agency's "Discovery" missions, aimed at swiftly and (relatively) inexpensively exploring other worlds in our solar system. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 29 00:14:06 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:14:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] This day in space history In-Reply-To: <637885.90602.qm@web111407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <637885.90602.qm@web111407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ah, fond memories! Gotta love it: $83 million for 5.2 million bits of data. Sixteen dollars per bit. And worth every cent. +McG+ > On this day in 1964, the U.S. spacecraft Mariner 4 launched, using the > Atlas-Agena D launch vehicle, on a flyby mission of Mars, providing the > first ever close-up images of another planet. Many credit Mariner 4 > images/data with altering the course of science fiction, shifting the home > of intelligent aliens from Mars (or other planets in our solar system) to > planets circling distant stars. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariner_4 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 29 00:30:51 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:30:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? In-Reply-To: References: <4B1028F1.1090206@kali.com><20091127204345016.LRBP29910@hrndva-comm-mta03.mail.rr.com>, <024501ca6fbf$cf9733b0$6ec59b10$@com>, , <7ecc98b54cb06c20c37069264f478a9c.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <110a746dc8a658082a7401de0bbfa419.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> It's been years since I've delved into the legal details. L&I's policy might be because Washington adopted the UFC which references NFPA 1122 and 1127. More likely because Washington uses essentially DoT's definition of explosives which isn't affected by the court ruling. Like the whole ematch thing, it all gets bizarrely convoluted and I got tired of straining my brain trying to keep it all straight. Besides, I really can't afford motors over 62.5 anyway so why worry. It's like my interpretation of the instructions on fireworks: "Light fuse and make a clean getaway." :) +McG+ > Right now, I don't think it is L&I. They have to enforce the laws the > legislature have put in place. In talking with Mason Reiter and Mark > Aguire, they both with they did not have to deal with this. > >> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:00:25 -0800 >> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> To: bar0051 at homenetnw.net >> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >> I was about to ask about whether or not L&I had changed their tune yet. >> Oh well. >> +McG+ >> >> >> > That is not exactly correct here in the State of Washington. Here in >> > Washington, you need a licensed magazine to store more than 5 pounds >> of >> > BP. >> > My state permits cost me $120 this year, plus the fuss of getting >> > fingerprinted every year. It is also required to store AP motors. I >> hope >> > that someday the state regulators will realize what a waste of >> everyone's >> > resources it is to require all this for rocketry. The really crazy >> part >> > is >> > that there is no 62.5 gram exception in the state regs but they do not >> > require hobby stores or Wal-mart to have a mag. >> > >> > Bryon >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Darrell D. Mobley" >> > To: >> > Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 4:14 PM >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> > >> > >> >> Buying BP is not the issue. ATF isn't concerned about you buying it. >> >> They >> >> are concerned, however, with how you USE it. >> >> >> >> If you have a BP long gun or pistol, you can purchase up to 50 pounds >> of >> >> BP >> >> for USE in the guns. Black Powder is exempt from regulation for USE >> in >> >> antique firearms. If you purchase it for use in a BP gun, you are >> >> exempt >> >> from regulation if you USE it in a BP gun -- BUT -- if you USE it for >> >> any >> >> other purpose than the BP gun, it is regulated. >> >> >> >> There is no way to get around the USE of BP in any form other than >> what >> >> is >> >> exempt requiring a LEUP. >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >>> [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> >>> On Behalf Of Always Ready Rocketry >> >>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:44 PM >> >>> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >>> >> >>> Nobody has any way of verifying any of that. Just shows how stupid >> >>> the >> >>> whole thing is. All someone has to do is say they have a percussion >> >>> pistol >> >>> and they can buy 4fg. >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Robert Kelley [mailto:pasha at kali.com] >> >>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:31 PM >> >>> To: Always Ready Rocketry >> >>> Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> What if you are just thinking of buying a black powder rifle or >> pistol? >> >>> >> >>> What if you have plans to make one? Seems that would be the same. >> >>> >> >>> Always Ready Rocketry wrote: >> >>> > Yes if you own a black powder rifle or pistol, you can buy BP w/o >> an >> >>> LEUP. >> >>> > >> >>> > -----Original Message----- >> >>> > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >>> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> >>> > On Behalf Of Sareth Tes >> >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:32 PM >> >>> > To: glech at aol.com; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > Well Gary, >> >>> > You could always take up black powder firearms and then you would >> >>> > not have to worry about left over powder! I also hear there is a >> batf >> >>> > exception if you are buying the powder for these beasties but that >> is >> >>> > hear say at the moment I don't KNOW that to be a reality. >> >>> > >> >>> > Ralph >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >> From: glech at aol.com >> >>> >> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:20:44 -0800 >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >>> >> >> >>> >> If there's a group order count me in for 1 pound. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> I took a look at the website and can't justify buying 5 pounds. >> I'd >> >>> >> never >> >>> >> >> >>> > use it all. Heck 1 lb will probably last me the rest of my >> rocketry >> >>> career. >> >>> > >> >>> >> Happy Thanksgiving, >> >>> >> Gary >> >>> >> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> >> From: Kent Newman >> >>> >> To: 'Mark Lyons' ; mfreptiles at aol.com ; lawndart.robert at gmail.com >> >>> ; >> >>> >> >> >>> > 'Bryon Schopp' ; arrsales at cox.net ; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> > >> >>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:07 AM >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Think group order..... >> >>> >> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >> From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> >> >>> > [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] >> >>> > >> >>> >> On Behalf Of Mark Lyons >> >>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:26 AM >> >>> >> To: mfreptiles at aol.com; lawndart.robert at gmail.com; Bryon Schopp; >> >>> >> arrsales at cox.net; rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> www.powderinc All the BP you need, shipped to your door. I've >> >>> >> ordered >> >>> >> >> >>> > up to >> >>> > >> >>> >> 5 lbs., no problem. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Mark >> >>> >> >> >>> >> > From: Mfreptiles at aol.com >> >>> >> > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:13:54 -0500 >> >>> >> > To: lawndart.robert at gmail.com; bar0051 at homenetnw.net; >> >>> >> >> >>> > arrsales at cox.net; >> >>> > >> >>> >> rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Ejection Charge Solution? >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > Last I checked, you can still buy it in Salem. Mom and pop gun >> >>> shop. >> >>> >> >> >>> > The >> >>> > >> >>> >> > owner likes rocketry. Bring pictures. :) >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > Mike F. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:04:52 P.M. Pacific Standard >> >>> Time, >> >>> >> > lawndart.robert at gmail.com writes: >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > And for >> >>> >> > those that stated the other day, you cannot walk down to the >> >>> >> corner >> >>> >> >> >>> > gun >> >>> > >> >>> >> > shop >> >>> >> > and buy 4F anymore. Tillamook is out of selling it. Salem >> might. >> >>> >> But I >> >>> >> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >> > believe Oregon shops are dry. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> >> Rockets mailing list >> >>> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > Rockets mailing list >> >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > Rockets mailing list >> >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Rockets mailing list >> >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockets mailing list >> >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From appusher at q.com Sun Nov 29 12:17:54 2009 From: appusher at q.com (Bill Munds) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:17:54 +0000 Subject: [RocketsNW] Holiday economic sale from PSP {AD} Message-ID: Hi fliers, We are putting all our reloads from Aerotech on sale until NOV 30th. Aerotech prevents us from advertizing the prices, but for pre-pay pre-orders we are offering lower than retail. Give us a call for pricing and payment options or reply to this email. Sorry for the delay in notice. Bill at PSP 206.335.0196 EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me From garyg_nwr at verizon.net Sun Nov 29 22:25:59 2009 From: garyg_nwr at verizon.net (Gary Goncher) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:25:59 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant Message-ID: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net> See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone heard of this before? http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f Gary Gary Goncher ggoncher at verizon.net From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 29 22:40:54 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:40:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant In-Reply-To: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net> References: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net> Message-ID: <34af7d69f65e0d2e5d6ee06040347c7c.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> An earlier launch was covered on this list before. Nothing new except these guys had funding to afford enough nano-aluminum to actually build a motor. Aluminum-ice was on my list of dream propellants in the early 1980's. It was on other folks' lists long before that. What was missing was aluminum in sufficiently small particle size to make it work. Still extremely spendy today. Nice trick but ultimate practicality yet to be established. I still think the magnesium equivalent of steel wool in ice will work just dandy too. But it's way beyond my wallet. And yours. Unobtainium and unaffordium--the two key ingredients for building really great rockets! +McG+ > See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone > heard of this before? > http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f > > Gary > > Gary Goncher > ggoncher at verizon.net > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sun Nov 29 23:08:38 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:08:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant In-Reply-To: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net> References: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net> Message-ID: <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> I Googled nano-aluminum. Prices depending on particle size seem to run around $2000 -$3000 per kilogram. Yeah, real practical rocket fuel at that price. Still a cool launch though. They don't say how much propellant they used in that rocket but I'm guessing it was probably a thousand dollar flight. Maybe someday. Until then I'll dream about more practical things, like propellant based on monatomic nitrogen embedded in argon ice. Oh wait, that was a laser... ;-) +McG+ > See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone > heard of this before? > http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f > > Gary > > Gary Goncher > ggoncher at verizon.net > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From vincesimoneau at msn.com Sun Nov 29 23:26:09 2009 From: vincesimoneau at msn.com (Vince Simoneau) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant In-Reply-To: <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net>, <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: So.. where do you get a nano grinder ? > Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:08:38 -0800 > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > To: garyg_nwr at verizon.net > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant > > I Googled nano-aluminum. Prices depending on particle size seem to run > around $2000 -$3000 per kilogram. > > Yeah, real practical rocket fuel at that price. > Still a cool launch though. > > They don't say how much propellant they used in that rocket but I'm > guessing it was probably a thousand dollar flight. > > Maybe someday. > > Until then I'll dream about more practical things, like propellant based > on monatomic nitrogen embedded in argon ice. Oh wait, that was a laser... > ;-) > +McG+ > > > > See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone > > heard of this before? > > http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f > > > > Gary > > > > Gary Goncher > > ggoncher at verizon.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From vincesimoneau at msn.com Sun Nov 29 23:36:00 2009 From: vincesimoneau at msn.com (Vince Simoneau) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:36:00 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant In-Reply-To: <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> References: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net>, <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: http://www.nanomaterialstore.com/nano-aluminum. V... > Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:08:38 -0800 > From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > To: garyg_nwr at verizon.net > CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant > > I Googled nano-aluminum. Prices depending on particle size seem to run > around $2000 -$3000 per kilogram. > > Yeah, real practical rocket fuel at that price. > Still a cool launch though. > > They don't say how much propellant they used in that rocket but I'm > guessing it was probably a thousand dollar flight. > > Maybe someday. > > Until then I'll dream about more practical things, like propellant based > on monatomic nitrogen embedded in argon ice. Oh wait, that was a laser... > ;-) > +McG+ > > > > See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone > > heard of this before? > > http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f > > > > Gary > > > > Gary Goncher > > ggoncher at verizon.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockets mailing list > > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 30 19:16:13 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant In-Reply-To: References: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net>, <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: > So.. where do you get a nano grinder ? One site mentioned using high power(kilowatt range) ultrasonic grinding in a fluid medium. Another said they used laser vaporization. Given that demand for various nanoparticles is rapidly increasing and the price is still extremely high for most materials it's going to be a while before nano-aluminum fueled rockets become cost competitive. "Nanoscale" particles are defined to be under 100 nM in size. The smallest conventionally ground aluminum is around 3 microns--3000 nM, thirty times bigger. Five micron is a more standard size for finely ground aluminum. The difference between a BB and a large beach ball, or more. That's why previous efforts to make aluminum/ice motors didn't work. An 18 nM particle of aluminum is only a couple hundred atoms across. +McG+ >> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:08:38 -0800 >> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> To: garyg_nwr at verizon.net >> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant >> >> I Googled nano-aluminum. Prices depending on particle size seem to run >> around $2000 -$3000 per kilogram. >> >> Yeah, real practical rocket fuel at that price. >> Still a cool launch though. >> >> They don't say how much propellant they used in that rocket but I'm >> guessing it was probably a thousand dollar flight. >> >> Maybe someday. >> >> Until then I'll dream about more practical things, like propellant based >> on monatomic nitrogen embedded in argon ice. Oh wait, that was a >> laser... >> ;-) >> +McG+ >> >> >> > See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone >> > heard of this before? >> > http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f >> > >> > Gary >> > >> > Gary Goncher >> > ggoncher at verizon.net >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > From rnech at yahoo.com Mon Nov 30 20:26:36 2009 From: rnech at yahoo.com (Robert Nech) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:26:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] New Zealand Launches First Private For-Profit Rocket (hybrid alert) Message-ID: <497349.34036.qm@web111404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/30/new-zealand-launches-first-rocket/ (excerpt) Today was a proud day in the history of New Zealand, marking the first ever home-grown rocket launch from the island. The private space company Rocket Lab, Ltd launched their Atea-1 rocket to a height of over 100 km at 2:28pm (NZST). The launch took place at Great Mercury Island, just off the coast of the North Island, and is a first for the company as well as the country. Video of launch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCvoRUbTYec Interview with the two guys who head the company, video of the rocket on the launch pad, computer video simulation, static test video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6Z6yFJ23U Company website. http://www.rocketlab.co.nz/ Looks like they are launching hybrids. From MartyWeiser at comcast.net Mon Nov 30 21:15:40 2009 From: MartyWeiser at comcast.net (Marty Weiser) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:15:40 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant In-Reply-To: References: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net>, <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Message-ID: <012301ca7245$538622d0$fa926870$@net> One approach to making nanopowders is to condense the vapor on a cold finger. The cold finger is typically cooled with liquid nitrogen and a metal is vaporized in the chamber containing the finger. Having a very cold surface results in the nucleation of many particles rather than the growth of a few large ones. The finger has to be scraped down periodically before the nuclei can coalesce into larger, agglomerated particles. The atmosphere in the chamber will determine the type of particle. For example aluminum in vacuum will give metal particles, a small amount of oxygen will result in alumina, nitrogen will result in AlN. Sometimes oxygen or nitrogen are let into the chamber before the particles are scraped from the finger to passivate the surface. If this is not done, the fine metal particles tend to cold weld together (a sintering process) when they come into contact. Of course even the passivated particles will bond together due to surface interactions, but they can normally be broken up fairly easily. Marty -----Original Message----- From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:16 PM To: Vince Simoneau Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant > So.. where do you get a nano grinder ? One site mentioned using high power(kilowatt range) ultrasonic grinding in a fluid medium. Another said they used laser vaporization. Given that demand for various nanoparticles is rapidly increasing and the price is still extremely high for most materials it's going to be a while before nano-aluminum fueled rockets become cost competitive. "Nanoscale" particles are defined to be under 100 nM in size. The smallest conventionally ground aluminum is around 3 microns--3000 nM, thirty times bigger. Five micron is a more standard size for finely ground aluminum. The difference between a BB and a large beach ball, or more. That's why previous efforts to make aluminum/ice motors didn't work. An 18 nM particle of aluminum is only a couple hundred atoms across. +McG+ >> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:08:38 -0800 >> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >> To: garyg_nwr at verizon.net >> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant >> >> I Googled nano-aluminum. Prices depending on particle size seem to run >> around $2000 -$3000 per kilogram. >> >> Yeah, real practical rocket fuel at that price. >> Still a cool launch though. >> >> They don't say how much propellant they used in that rocket but I'm >> guessing it was probably a thousand dollar flight. >> >> Maybe someday. >> >> Until then I'll dream about more practical things, like propellant based >> on monatomic nitrogen embedded in argon ice. Oh wait, that was a >> laser... >> ;-) >> +McG+ >> >> >> > See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone >> > heard of this before? >> > http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f >> > >> > Gary >> > >> > Gary Goncher >> > ggoncher at verizon.net >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockets mailing list >> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockets mailing list >> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ Rockets mailing list Rockets at rocketsnw.com http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets From lawndart.robert at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 21:43:35 2009 From: lawndart.robert at gmail.com (Robert Krausert) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:43:35 -0800 Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant References: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net>, <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <012301ca7245$538622d0$fa926870$@net> Message-ID: So if you use and scrap cold fingers, I take it employees have a retention rate of about ten days? Then released. "For your job, we're going to vacuum seal your finger and chill it with liquid nitrogen. Then we're going to scrap aluminum dust from your finger. Might be painful for the first few minutes. Is that a problem?" Did I miss something in that last email? Cheers, Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Weiser" To: ; "'Vince Simoneau'" Cc: Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant > One approach to making nanopowders is to condense the vapor on a cold > finger. The cold finger is typically cooled with liquid nitrogen and a > metal is vaporized in the chamber containing the finger. Having a very > cold > surface results in the nucleation of many particles rather than the growth > of a few large ones. The finger has to be scraped down periodically > before > the nuclei can coalesce into larger, agglomerated particles. > > The atmosphere in the chamber will determine the type of particle. For > example aluminum in vacuum will give metal particles, a small amount of > oxygen will result in alumina, nitrogen will result in AlN. Sometimes > oxygen or nitrogen are let into the chamber before the particles are > scraped > from the finger to passivate the surface. If this is not done, the fine > metal particles tend to cold weld together (a sintering process) when they > come into contact. Of course even the passivated particles will bond > together due to surface interactions, but they can normally be broken up > fairly easily. > > Marty > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:16 PM > To: Vince Simoneau > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant > > > So.. where do you get a nano grinder ? > > One site mentioned using high power(kilowatt range) ultrasonic grinding in > a fluid medium. Another said they used laser vaporization. > > Given that demand for various nanoparticles is rapidly increasing and the > price is still extremely high for most materials it's going to be a while > before nano-aluminum fueled rockets become cost competitive. > > "Nanoscale" particles are defined to be under 100 nM in size. The > smallest conventionally ground aluminum is around 3 microns--3000 nM, > thirty times bigger. Five micron is a more standard size for finely > ground aluminum. The difference between a BB and a large beach ball, or > more. That's why previous efforts to make aluminum/ice motors didn't > work. An 18 nM particle of aluminum is only a couple hundred atoms > across. > +McG+ > > > >>> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:08:38 -0800 >>> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> To: garyg_nwr at verizon.net >>> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant >>> >>> I Googled nano-aluminum. Prices depending on particle size seem to run >>> around $2000 -$3000 per kilogram. >>> >>> Yeah, real practical rocket fuel at that price. >>> Still a cool launch though. >>> >>> They don't say how much propellant they used in that rocket but I'm >>> guessing it was probably a thousand dollar flight. >>> >>> Maybe someday. >>> >>> Until then I'll dream about more practical things, like propellant based >>> on monatomic nitrogen embedded in argon ice. Oh wait, that was a >>> laser... >>> ;-) >>> +McG+ >>> >>> >>> > See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone >>> > heard of this before? >>> > http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f >>> > >>> > Gary >>> > >>> > Gary Goncher >>> > ggoncher at verizon.net >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Rockets mailing list >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 30 22:21:34 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:21:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] New Zealand Launches First Private For-Profit Rocket (hybrid alert) In-Reply-To: <497349.34036.qm@web111404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <497349.34036.qm@web111404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <68918f61a2c6fd1506f8b988df422919.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Good for them! Now we can add New Zealanders to the list of people who will be there to greet US astronauts when they return to the moon. They should have plenty of time to grow their space program from this beginning... +McG+ > http://www.universetoday.com/2009/11/30/new-zealand-launches-first-rocket/ > > (excerpt) > Today was a proud day in the history of New Zealand, marking the first > ever home-grown rocket launch from the island. The private space company > Rocket Lab, Ltd launched their Atea-1 rocket to a height of over 100 km at > 2:28pm (NZST). The launch took place at Great Mercury Island, just off the > coast of the North Island, and is a first for the company as well as the > country. > > Video of launch. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCvoRUbTYec > > Interview with the two guys who head the company, video of the rocket on > the launch pad, computer video simulation, static test video. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6Z6yFJ23U > > Company website. > http://www.rocketlab.co.nz/ > > Looks like they are launching hybrids. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > From kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com Mon Nov 30 22:36:09 2009 From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com (kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:36:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant In-Reply-To: <012301ca7245$538622d0$fa926870$@net> References: <39D3F264-DD79-11DE-A9C8-003065EF3D46@verizon.net>, <472446a843f8d5f70f6091e45d55bec3.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> <012301ca7245$538622d0$fa926870$@net> Message-ID: <8e6d83504dff226e87264acc8c4d4a19.squirrel@www.wa-net.com> Nanoparticles may cold-weld, but micron size particles of metals like aluminum and magnesium tend to flash if they aren't passivated before being exposed to air. My point all along however has been that the whole process of creating nanoparticles of aluminum will remain too expensive for use as bulk rocket fuel. Even on the moon there will always be more practical solutions. It's a neat science demonstration, something cool to brag about having done, but not likely any kind of breakthrough in practical propulsion. John Wickman's Al/LOX slurry and Mg/CO2 rocket are closer to being of actual use in space exploration IMO. But I am kind of envious. +McG+ > One approach to making nanopowders is to condense the vapor on a cold > finger. The cold finger is typically cooled with liquid nitrogen and a > metal is vaporized in the chamber containing the finger. Having a very > cold > surface results in the nucleation of many particles rather than the growth > of a few large ones. The finger has to be scraped down periodically > before > the nuclei can coalesce into larger, agglomerated particles. > > The atmosphere in the chamber will determine the type of particle. For > example aluminum in vacuum will give metal particles, a small amount of > oxygen will result in alumina, nitrogen will result in AlN. Sometimes > oxygen or nitrogen are let into the chamber before the particles are > scraped > from the finger to passivate the surface. If this is not done, the fine > metal particles tend to cold weld together (a sintering process) when they > come into contact. Of course even the passivated particles will bond > together due to surface interactions, but they can normally be broken up > fairly easily. > > Marty > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com] > On Behalf Of kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:16 PM > To: Vince Simoneau > Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com > Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant > > > So.. where do you get a nano grinder ? > > One site mentioned using high power(kilowatt range) ultrasonic grinding in > a fluid medium. Another said they used laser vaporization. > > Given that demand for various nanoparticles is rapidly increasing and the > price is still extremely high for most materials it's going to be a while > before nano-aluminum fueled rockets become cost competitive. > > "Nanoscale" particles are defined to be under 100 nM in size. The > smallest conventionally ground aluminum is around 3 microns--3000 nM, > thirty times bigger. Five micron is a more standard size for finely > ground aluminum. The difference between a BB and a large beach ball, or > more. That's why previous efforts to make aluminum/ice motors didn't > work. An 18 nM particle of aluminum is only a couple hundred atoms > across. > +McG+ > > > >>> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:08:38 -0800 >>> From: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com >>> To: garyg_nwr at verizon.net >>> CC: rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] Aluminum-ice propellant >>> >>> I Googled nano-aluminum. Prices depending on particle size seem to run >>> around $2000 -$3000 per kilogram. >>> >>> Yeah, real practical rocket fuel at that price. >>> Still a cool launch though. >>> >>> They don't say how much propellant they used in that rocket but I'm >>> guessing it was probably a thousand dollar flight. >>> >>> Maybe someday. >>> >>> Until then I'll dream about more practical things, like propellant >>> based >>> on monatomic nitrogen embedded in argon ice. Oh wait, that was a >>> laser... >>> ;-) >>> +McG+ >>> >>> >>> > See the link below for a report on NASA's use of aluminum-ice. Anyone >>> > heard of this before? >>> > http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/deltav/24457/?nlid=2562&a=f >>> > >>> > Gary >>> > >>> > Gary Goncher >>> > ggoncher at verizon.net >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Rockets mailing list >>> > Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockets mailing list >>> Rockets at rocketsnw.com >>> http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockets mailing list > Rockets at rocketsnw.com > http://mx1.blastzone.com/mailman/listinfo/rockets > > >